Cargo costs

[Straybow]

Sorry, I did not intend to misquote you.

No prob, just a springboard.

I don't see anything unclear.

Yet it obviously is so. The quoted lengthy explanation logically indicates per parsec, and other places do not. That is what is unclear.

You ignore everything that cannot possibly be interpreted the way you want.

I believe there was a magazine article or something that clarified: JTAS awarded passages are always J1.

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Passengers will pay the standard fare of the class of transportation they choose: Cr10,000 for high passage, Cr8,000 for middle passage, and Cr1,000 for low passage. Passage is always sold on the basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on the basis of jump distance. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Yes, because if I'm going 4 parsecs away, a J4 will take one jump, a J2 will take two jumps, and a J1 will take four jumps. In any case, it is not the distance jumped that determines the price, it is the distance to the destination.

All other references can be explained as sloppy editing (of which there was plenty, and we don't bear a grudge).
[/FONT]

 

[aramis]

All other references can be explained as sloppy editing (of which there was plenty, and we don't bear a grudge).
[/SIZE][/FONT]

The subby liner in A13 is too explicitly "A j3 is Cr1000 per jump" to be poor editing. It's the (unfortunate) nail in the coffin of "CT is prices per parsec"

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yet it obviously is so. The quoted lengthy explanation logically indicates per parsec, and other places do not. That is what is unclear.

Yet I and many others do not see it. There is a much simpler explanation: The text means just what it says: A High Passage is kCr10 and a dT of cargo is kCr1.

As Aramis points out, the point is conclusively settled in CT (and MT). Later editions changed that.

 

[Supplement Four]

As Aramis points out, the point is conclusively settled in CT (and MT). Later editions changed that.

To add...there's nothing wrong with Straybow playing the way he wants, too. The idea is to enjoy the game.

But if you're talking rules...well, the rules do say what they say.

I've definitely seen rules that are a lot less direct. :coffeesip:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

To add...there's nothing wrong with Straybow playing the way he wants, too. The idea is to enjoy the game.

Of course! I have house-ruled this point to be more to my liking, but the rules looks clear to me.

 

[Straybow]

Straybow makes an excellent point about the lack of clarity...

No, not just that it isn't clear, it is flatly contradictory to per jump pricing. What isn't clear is how people are reading per jump into what is written in LBB2 when it never says so. Logical parsing of his actual words results in per parsec pricing, and everywhere else the price is just listed as a figure without directly citing as per jump or per parsec.

I say again, "Difference in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices" can only mean that higher jump capable ships charge the same per parsec rate to get to the destination as J1 would. Otherwise the jump capacity has a specific effect on price.

Yet I and many others do not see it. There is a much simpler explanation: The text means just what it says: A High Passage is kCr10 and a dT of cargo is kCr1.

You keep quoting that cost. I do not think it means what you think it means.

But if you're talking rules...well, the rules do say what they say.

Except when the rules don't actually say "per jump," anywhere. Not LBB2, not LBB5...

The subby liner in A13 is too explicitly "A j3 is Cr1000 per jump" to be poor editing. It's the (unfortunate) nail in the coffin of "CT is prices per parsec"

So, 8 years after publishing LBB1-3, 6 years after HG, 4-5 years after the first major revision (and maybe 2 years after I quit playing RPGs) MWM finally makes an official interpretation on per jump pricing in an adventure write-up. But note: an interpretation still isn't "rules as written," just an ad hoc correction! The CT rules themselves were never revised to say "per jump" in any official errata!

Per jump ruled through the MT era, granted. It just wasn't settled until nearly the end of the CT era, and anyone who didn't have A13 would be perfectly justified to read the RAW to be per parsec. Which isn't at all what you guys are saying.

 

[Supplement Four]

Except when the rules don't actually say "per jump," anywhere. Not LBB2, not LBB5...

This is getting a bit tiresome, but I'll try one more time.

The rules do say: "The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number), and roll for each such world on the cargo table."

Is it not clear to you that the cargo table generates cargo from the origin world to a destination world that is one jump away for the carrier vessel?





Is it not clear to you...

That what you do, when using these rules, is consider your origin world and all worlds the ship can reach in one jump. Then, as Ref, you roll up cargos for each destination and present that information to the PCs for them to decide which they want to take?



If that is not clear to you, then please give me an example of how you think the rules do work.

 

[mike wightman]

Nope - there is no per parsec, not even by implication.

Logical parsing of what is written leads to a price per jump, not price per parsec.

First get the order or things right.

The ref rolls for cargo lots that are within jump range of the ship.

The ship's captain selects a destination world.

It is paid Cr1000 per ton for the cargo regardless of any other factor.

Passengers then present themselves once that world is known.

I really do not see how you are interpreting this as per parsec pricing.

 

[Straybow]

Nope - there is no per parsec, not even by implication.

Logical parsing of what is written leads to a price per jump, not price per parsec.

First get the order or things right.

The ref rolls for cargo lots that are within jump range of the ship.

The ship's captain selects a destination world.

It is paid Cr1000 per ton for the cargo regardless of any other factor.

Passengers then present themselves once that world is known.

I really do not see how you are interpreting this as per parsec pricing.

EXCEPT:
It does not say the ref rolls for cargo lots "within one jump." For example, a J1 ship wouldn't roll for cargoes to stars across a rift.

When paid for cargo and passengers, the exact description given comes into play, in which the example of a passenger booking to a world three parsecs away pays three tickets. J1 passengers and cargos are always paid per parsec. Jump drive capacity has "no specific effect on passage prices," and therefore a J3 trip to a destination three parsecs away is paid per parsec, just as a J1 ship.

 

[mike wightman]

It says, and it has been quoted so many times on this thread:

The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number))

 

[AnotherDilbert]

When paid for cargo and passengers, the exact description given comes into play, in which the example of a passenger booking to a world three parsecs away pays three tickets. J1 passengers and cargos are always paid per parsec. Jump drive capacity has "no specific effect on passage prices," and therefore a J3 trip to a destination three parsecs away is paid per parsec, just as a J1 ship.

"Jump drive capacity" is the drive number of the ship, not the distance jumped. You (?) have already explained why this was important in CT'77.

The preceding paragraph says "Passage is always sold on the basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on the basis of jump distance". As far as I can see this explicitly says that the actual jump distance is not a factor in the price.

 

[Straybow]

It says, and it has been quoted so many times on this thread:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number)) [/FONT]

"Accessible" means J1 can't cross a 1 parsec rift, J2 can't cross a 2 parsec rift...

One quote says "depending on jump number" and the other quote says "jump drive capacity has no specific effect on passage prices." One does not trump the other, and both are compatible with per parsec price. Per jump price means that Jn has a specific effect on passage price, and is contraindicated.

"Jump drive capacity" is the drive number of the ship, not the distance jumped. You (?) have already explained why this was important in CT'77.

The preceding paragraph says "Passage is always sold on the basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on the basis of jump distance". As far as I can see this explicitly says that the actual jump distance is not a factor in the price.

Jump distance != distance to destination. Again, the only way jump distance can be immaterial to price is with per parsec pricing. Otherwise, cost to destination depends on jump distance, which is contrary to the second clause of the sentence you just highlighted.

The specific example in the text is of a destination three parsecs away, which would cost three tickets for passage on a J1, and the text specifically says J3 has "the same passage price," not the same ticket price.

MWM is entitled to change his mind between originally writing LBB2 and A13. But the fact remains, nobody has ever cited a CT rules book or errata that specifies per jump pricing.

 

[mike wightman]

Cargo is done first - it trumps passenger.

The thread is about the cost of hauling freight, the pricing of tickets to the world you have picked to deliver the freight to doesn't come into the freight revenue.

You get Cr1000 per ton for hauling it from Argle to Zargle regardless of how far apart they are.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Jump distance != distance to destination.

And I of course disagree.

Obviously neither of us will convince the other about anything, so I will drop out of this discussion. Have fun.

 

[Condottiere]

Passage tickets can be like gift vouchers, redeemable at any participating astroline.

 

[Supplement Four]

The subby liner in A13 is too explicitly "A j3 is Cr1000 per jump" to be poor editing. It's the (unfortunate) nail in the coffin of "CT is prices per parsec"

@straybow: If LBBs 1-3 are unclear to you on this point, then why not accept that a reading of the rules--what all of us have been telling you--is confirmed later in the game?

I wouldn't say that LBBs 1-3 are unclear on the matter, but you do. So, why not look to other CT sources for confirmation?

Obviously Aramis' catch that I quoted above should put an end to the meaning of the rule in your mind.

 

[aramis]

@straybow: If LBBs 1-3 are unclear to you on this point, then why not accept that a reading of the rules--what all of us have been telling you--is confirmed later in the game?

I wouldn't say that LBBs 1-3 are unclear on the matter, but you do. So, why not look to other CT sources for confirmation?

Obviously Aramis' catch that I quoted above should put an end to the meaning of the rule in your mind.

I'll note that I share Straybow's read of LBB1-3 on that, but that other evidence in CT (and in all later GDW/IG/FFE editions, as well) goes the other way.

GT and MGT, however, do go to a varied cost by distance model.
So, for the OTU, it's arguable either way. And this thread is in the "In the OTU" area, not the CT nor any other edition, so it's a fair ball.

 

[Straybow]

@straybow: If LBBs 1-3 are unclear to you on this point, then why not accept that a reading of the rules--what all of us have been telling you--is confirmed later in the game?

I wouldn't say that LBBs 1-3 are unclear on the matter, but you do. So, why not look to other CT sources for confirmation?

Obviously Aramis' catch that I quoted above should put an end to the meaning of the rule in your mind.

What I'm saying is that LBB2 is actually clear. It is only not clear when coming from the per jump perspective. It never says it, so it can only come from selectively interpreting from the per jump position.

When MWM says that the only difference between 3 J1 tickets and 1 J3 passage is the time to destination (3 weeks vs 1 week), it pretty solidly locks in per parsec pricing.

We played Trav in three campaigns of several months, over a five year period. We had only the 1977 boxed set (birthday present in 1978). Having no other resources we read what it said as per parsec, which seemed abundantly clear, and the economics work.

I came here and all these folks are pointing to LBB as per jump pricing, and thought, "That's just crazy talk! It doesn't work. Where do they even get that from?"

I have no problem with MWM changing his mind, but it appears it wasn't officially endorsed in print until many years later. To my mind, that's no different than playing Trav before virus was made canon, or in the alternate version where virus never happened. Canon changed, but the pre-change version remains canon in its context. Nobody is required to buy and follow every supplement and adventure.

 

[mike wightman]

I agree with you on passenger revenue, but once again this thread was about cargo.

Cargo is shipped at Cr1000 per ton to it's destination. No per parsec, no per jump - to its destination which has to be "accessible to the starship (depending on jump number),"

 

[Supplement Four]

It is only not clear when coming from the per jump perspective. It never says it, so it can only come from selectively interpreting from the per jump position.

You are just considering the paragraph and not the rule. When looking at both--the chart with modifiers and reading the paragraph, it is clear.

Like when you are assembling something, looking at instructions. You read the description of what you need to do and then look a the drawn figure to understand what was described.

When MWM says that the only difference between 3 J1 tickets and 1 J3 passage is the time to destination (3 weeks vs 1 week), it pretty solidly locks in per parsec pricing.

Where did you see this?

I have no problem with MWM changing his mind, but it appears it wasn't officially endorsed in print until many years later.

Or, look at the rules page with the chart in LBB2, pg 11. You can't read that chart without considering only one origin world--which means that the only way to play the rule is cargo at Cr 1,000 per ton per jump.



More proof on the same page. Look at the Ship Revenues chart in the upper right hand corner of the page.

-- The text is clear that the High, Mid, and Low passages are paid on a per jump basis.

-- The text is clear that Mail is paid on a per jump basis.

It would not make sense to list cargo per ton on this chart if it was not also earned on a per jump basis.