Cargo costs

[Straybow]

My LBBs are in storage somewhere, so I don't have a chart. But I do recall that it nowhere said "per jump" in so many words. I have at present only the quote from LBB2, p. 9, which is the example of how to interpret the chart.

Difference in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices. A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three separate tickets) to reach it. Higher jump numbers also make otherwise inaccessible destinations within reach. But for two ships of differing jump numbers going to the same destination in one jump, each would charge the same cargo or passage price.

From this we get the interpretation of:

• Jump capacity has no effect on price
• Cost is per parsec
• Accessibility is not ruled out if reachable with multiple jumps
• Per parsec applies to cargo as well as passenger service.

 

[Supplement Four]

Difference in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices.

Correct. You pay the same Cr 1,000 per ton whether you are jumping 1 parsec or 3 parsecs.

Jump number does not influence the price.

A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship.

Yes, a J-1 starship gets Cr1,000 per ton. A J-3 starship gets Cr1,000 per ton whether it is jumping 1, 2, or 3 parsecs.

This jives with the preceding sentence above.

The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three separate tickets) to reach it.

Yes. You are paying by the Jump...by the week.

So, of a J-1 starship makes three jumps to go 3 parsecs, that ship is paid Cr3,000 per ton. (Just like requiring three separate tickets.)

Note: This happens to be Cr 1,000 per parsec for this vessel. Maybe that's what is confusing you.

If a J-3 starship makes the same journey, 3 parsecs out, he makes only one jump and is paid Cr1,000 per ton.

But for two ships of differing jump numbers going to the same destination in one jump, each would charge the same cargo or passage price.

What this says is: You've got two vessels, one J-1 and one J-3, and both are going to a world one parsec distant. You pay the same Cr 1,000 per ton to either vessel.

Because you are paying per jump. You're not paying per parsec. You're not paying different ships with different J numbers different amounts for a single jump.

You pay Cr1,000 per ton per jump, regardless of what that jump is.

Or...you can look at this on a time basis. It costs Cr1,000 per ton for every week that a cargo travels in space to its desitination.

From this we get the interpretation of:
[*] Jump capacity has no effect on price

Correct. You're paying per jump--per one week in space--not different prices for difference distances.

[*] Cost is per parsec

No, remember that first sentence above that you quoted. J-Drive number doesn't have anything to do with cost. A J-1 ship or a J-3 ship is paid the same for one jump, even though the distance is different.

Again, the rule charts back this up in that they calculate cargo based on one jump.

When the rules description says for a Ref to roll for every cargo the ship can reach, the Ref is rolling for every cargo the ship can take in one jump. If that were not true--if the rule addressed multiple jumps--then where would you stop? You could go on forever--or for a long time, rolling cargoes. Consider a J-1 ship along the Spinward Main. Certainly you don't think the rules mean to roll cargoes out to 15 or 20 parsecs, do you?

Obviously, one jump--one week in space--is a good unit to use when paying for things: Passages, Mail, or cargo.

[*] Per parsec applies to cargo as well as passenger service

No. It is per jump. Per week in space.

Your second quote above says, " A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship."

Here, I see where you got your misinterpretation of the rules as many of the examples work out to Cr1,000 per ton per parsec.

You don't think the quoted line above is referring to one jump. I get where you are coming from, now.






Consider this, though. Let's follow the rules...

THIS EXAMPLE SHOULD SHOW YOU YOUR MISINTERPRETATION

You've got two Player ships in port. One ship is a J-1 vessel, and the other is a J-3 vessel. Following the rules where the Ref rolls up a cargo for every destination the ship can reach in one jump.

Obviously, the J-3 vessel can reach a lot more worlds (provided those worlds are in range of J-3)

Now, remember, we are directed by the rules to pay J-1 and J-3 vessels the same Cr1,000 per ton of cargo for this trip. The rule says, " A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship."

Thus, the J-1 ship can only go to worlds one parsec away. He is paid Cr1,000 per ton.

And...we've got to pay the J-3 ship the same, per the description. So, if the J-3 ship takes a cargo going three parsecs away, he is still paid Cr1,000 per ton.

 

[Supplement Four]

But I do recall that it nowhere said "per jump" in so many words.

MORE EVIDENCE

I've got some more evidence for you, Straybow.

LBB2, page 4, says that non-commercial starships (Player's ships) generally follow the one-week in Jump Space, one-week in port model.

That means, in general, the ship has a new cargo every two weeks.





LBB2, page 9, says that Charters are based on a vessel's revenue generating capability, and that Charters are for two-week blocks.

We just learned that, normally, a ship spends one week in jump and one week in port. That means it gets revenue of Cr10,000 for a high berth an Cr1,000 for a low berth, and Cr1,000 per ton of cargo during that two-week period.

There's an obvious 10% discount for a Charter.

So, a ship can be chartered for Cr9,000 per high berth + Cr900 per low berth + Cr900 per ton of cargo.



Now, remember, the charter price is based on the ship's revenue-generating capacity over a two-week block.

This example fits perfectly no matter what J number of ship is being used.

This example does not work if a ship is paid per parsec for a ton of cargo.





A J-3 vessel, paid Cr1,000 per ton per jump (plus the high and low berth) is paid 10% less for a charter, which is obviously the intent of the Charter.

If you went with a per parsec payment, then the charter rules wouldn't make any sense.

 

[Straybow]

But I do recall that it nowhere said "per jump" in so many words.

So, I issued a challenge and you gave me 10 responses, but not one was a verbatim statement of passage being priced per jump.

You and I are stuck on our backward TL8 planet, longing to escape. Not many starships visit the class E spaceport. Two private mining colonies lie between us and the nearest population center, so we'll have to travel three parsecs. Two ships arrive on the same day, and we rush out hoping our travel agents have secured us passage. We get there and find only two middle passage billets (sharing a stateroom with a stranger) remain. One is on a J3, the other is on a J1.

If passage is priced per jump, the J3 costs 8k and the J1 (scheduled service) is 3×8k. Does the jump capacity of the ship have a specific effect on passage price? Yes. That violates the first statement in the paragraph that explains how the system was supposed to work.

If the price listed in the chart is per parsec, then the single jump to a destination 3 parsecs away costs 3×8k as well, and the jump capacity has (as described) no specific effect on passage price.

There is a difference between passage price (mentioned three times in the paragraph) and ticket price (mentioned once). In the example, passage is booked to a destination that the J3 can reach in one jump. For the J1, the same destination is three jumps away, requiring three separate J1 tickets. The passage price is what is the same between the two, not the ticket price.

If I want to book passage from LAX to JFK, I might get a direct flight. I might get routed with a connection. When I check in at the airport, if I have a direct flight they print me one ticket. If I have a layover, they print me two tickets: one for the flight to the layover, and one for the flight in to JFK. The two tickets might not even be for the same airline. Passage is getting to a destination, while a ticket is for getting onto a plane for a flight.

The only point that isn't explicit in LBB2 is whether the chart prices are per parsec or per jump. For that one must read the explanatory paragraph, and the only way everything stated can be true at the same time is with per parsec prices.

 

[Supplement Four]

So, I issued a challenge and you gave me 10 responses, but not one was a verbatim statement of passage being priced per jump.

I can't make the text change to exactly what you want, but I have given you tons of examples and rules, backed up by later interpretation that supports what I'm saying.

The evidence is pretty clear that I am speaking truth to you.

The charter thing should spell it out logically for you. Per parsec pricing would not work with those charter rules.

The rules, that you haven't looked at, should spell it out for you logically as well.

Instead, you choose to ignore the logic and the proof.

And, that's OK. Run your game the way you want. Just don't think that what you are saying is RAW, though.

You and I are stuck on our backward TL8 planet, longing to escape. Not many starships visit the class E spaceport. Two private mining colonies lie between us and the nearest population center, so we'll have to travel three parsecs. Two ships arrive on the same day, and we rush out hoping our travel agents have secured us passage. We get there and find only two middle passage billets (sharing a stateroom with a stranger) remain. One is on a J3, the other is on a J1.

If passage is priced per jump, the J3 costs 8k and the J1 (scheduled service) is 3×8k. Does the jump capacity of the ship have a specific effect on passage price? Yes. That violates the first statement in the paragraph that explains how the system was supposed to work.

Like I said above, I do understand how you are coming to your misinterpretation of the rules.

The only point that isn't explicit in LBB2 is whether the chart prices are per parsec or per jump. For that one must read the explanatory paragraph, and the only way everything stated can be true at the same time is with per parsec prices.

Or, you can look at tables and play out the rule as described in LBB2--where it is clear that we're talking about "per jump", from origin world to destination--one jump.

 

[pendragonman]

And I thought we were talking about cargo, not passages.

 

[Straybow]

pendragonman,
The LBB2 paragraph in question has a specific example given for passage as per parsec, but also includes a second example that lumps cargo and passage together. If one is per parsec, the other is per parsec.

S4,
Well, it seems to me that your examples and rules don't actually say that charges are per jump. It doesn't matter that I don't have them here in front of me if they don't say per jump. It can't be RAW, if in fact it isn't written. Later interpretations don't make it RAW. All can be read under per parsec basis without modification, fudging, or harm to any sentients, animals, or interweb pixels.

Most games have a "specific trumps general" principle. The clear and specific statement that one full J3 jump costs the same as 3×J1 jumps beats all vague and unspecified charts and examples. Even A13 (eight years later) doesn't undo the 1977 example without an official errata covering the paragraph in question. That's usually the way "rules" work. Many boardgames, wargames, and rpgs have rule interpretations that "everyone knows" and yet aren't specified in the RAW.
__________

MORE EVIDENCE

Well, maybe not "evidence," as such. What does it actually say?

LBB2, page 9, says that Charters are based on a vessel's revenue generating capability, and that Charters are for two-week blocks.

We just learned that, normally, a ship spends one week in jump and one week in port. That means it gets revenue of Cr10,000 for a high berth an Cr1,000 for a low berth, and Cr1,000 per ton of cargo during that two-week period.

That's an assumption on your part. The week-in-jump/week-in-port model that ships "generally follow" (which doesn't sound much like an actual rule) says nothing about whether that jump is charged per parsec.

There's an obvious 10% discount for a Charter.

So, a ship can be chartered for Cr9,000 per high berth + Cr900 per low berth + Cr900 per ton of cargo.

But does it say per jump? Per parsec? Is it just an example that doesn't say how far the ship is jumping?

Now, remember, the charter price is based on the ship's revenue-generating capacity over a two-week block.
This example fits perfectly no matter what J number of ship is being used.
This example does not work if a ship is paid per parsec for a ton of cargo.

Sorry, I don't follow. Is a charter always and only for a two-week period, or is that just "typical" (same as the non-commercial ship "generally follows" a two week cycle)? Why would a charter be for two weeks if one week is sitting in port? Is it the week before jump, or after? I could pepper this example with questions. There's just too little information given to explain why the charter is for two weeks or even what "revenue generating capability" means. Does that include speculative cargo revenue?

I can think of a canon example that breaks the week-in-jump/week-in-port model and the two-week charter model, even if passage and cargo were charged per jump. Some Scout designs have fuel for 2 jumps back-to-back.

A J-3 vessel, paid Cr1,000 per ton per jump (plus the high and low berth) is paid 10% less for a charter, which is obviously the intent of the Charter.
If you went with a per parsec payment, then the charter rules wouldn't make any sense.

Is that the full text of the example? The 10% discount applies whether it is per jump or per parsec. If the prices are always per parsec, which is dictated by the condition of J3 costing the same as 3×J1 to the same destination, all the details in examples that don't specify either way are a wash.

Beyond that, you are assuming the charter rules section makes sense... Many examples given in "canon" publications have errors: ship designs missing parts, or totaling more than the tonnage available, etc. Heck, few here are arguing that per jump makes economic sense. Why should an obscure charter rule that hardly anybody uses necessarily be written error-free?

 

[Supplement Four]

Why don't you accept the Adventure 13 clarification? Doesn't that support what I've been saying?

You can't consider it clarification on what was meant in LBB2?





Starter Traveller is more clear in its description.

There, it says, "The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on the jump number), and roll for each such world on the cargo table."

So, that's pretty clear that J-1 ship will have less destinations than a J-3 vessel, provided there are any worlds within 3 parsecs. Right?

Later in the paragraph, it simply says, "All cargos are carried at Cr1,000 per ton."



Does that convince you?

It should. It's pretty clear.

 

[Supplement Four]

Finally...

I FOUND IT!

STRAYBOW, IT'S IN STARTER TRAVELLER, PAGE 30.

IT SAYS....


But for two ships of differing jump numbers going to the same destination in one jump, each would charge the same cargo or passage price.

Page 30 also says: A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship wold take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three separate tickets).





IN OTHER WORDS...

This says that a J-1 and J-3 ship charge the same, the difference between the two being that a J-3 can take you farther than the J-1 ship for the same price.



-- which agrees with what I've been telling you about LBB2

-- which agrees with the confirmation in Adventure 13.





FURTHER...SEE PAGE 39, LBB7.

There you will see a Ship Revenues chart not unlike the one shown on page 11, LBB2, except that the one in LBB7 says that the ship revenues are received per trip. On that chart is indicated (just like LBB2) that cargo is carried at Cr1,000 per ton per trip.

Not per parsec.

 

[Timerover51]

I will toss this out as an added fact with respect to cargo and Jump capability. I was looking at some of my US Army Quartermaster manuals with respect to safe storage life of various kinds of provisions. For Fresh Meat, unfrozen, in carcass and wholesale cuts, if held at between 32-35 Degrees Fahrenheit, beef will be good for 10 to 14 days, lamb is good for 7 to 10 days, pork is good for 5 days, poultry for 5 days, and veal for 6 days.

Clearly, this type of cargo requires a fast shipment, and I would argue that for fresh meat, you could get a premium price on delivery. The pork, poultry, and veal would be pushing it a bit for any Jump.

Methinks that the Aslan are going to have to have frozen meat for their ration, thawed and heated to body temperature as necessary.

 

[kilemall]

I will toss this out as an added fact with respect to cargo and Jump capability. I was looking at some of my US Army Quartermaster manuals with respect to safe storage life of various kinds of provisions. For Fresh Meat, unfrozen, in carcass and wholesale cuts, if held at between 32-35 Degrees Fahrenheit, beef will be good for 10 to 14 days, lamb is good for 7 to 10 days, pork is good for 5 days, poultry for 5 days, and veal for 6 days.

Clearly, this type of cargo requires a fast shipment, and I would argue that for fresh meat, you could get a premium price on delivery. The pork, poultry, and veal would be pushing it a bit for any Jump.

In the heyday of the huge centralized stockyards slaughterhouses and the railroads that supported them, the US meat industry was a huge industry that was on the same level as steel.

The reefer cars that carried sides of beef across the land were high value cargo due to the time factor, which made shipping them profitable due to the required speed. Sometimes they carried higher priority then passenger trains.

We see this today with fresh seafood that is flown in to the interior of the US from other countries (as the coastal fishing is largely consumed on the coasts they are fished from).

 

[aramis]

I FOUND IT!

STRAYBOW, IT'S IN STARTER TRAVELLER, PAGE 30.

IT SAYS....


But for two ships of differing jump numbers going to the same destination in one jump, each would charge the same cargo or passage price.

Page 30 also says: A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship wold take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three separate tickets).





IN OTHER WORDS...

This says that a J-1 and J-3 ship charge the same, the difference between the two being that a J-3 can take you farther than the J-1 ship for the same price.



-- which agrees with what I've been telling you about LBB2

-- which agrees with the confirmation in Adventure 13.





FURTHER...SEE PAGE 39, LBB7.

There you will see a Ship Revenues chart not unlike the one shown on page 11, LBB2, except that the one in LBB7 says that the ship revenues are received per trip. On that chart is indicated (just like LBB2) that cargo is carried at Cr1,000 per ton per trip.

Not per parsec.

But that doesn't say that the price of the 3 J1's is different from the 1J3...

 

[whartung]

This says that a J-1 and J-3 ship charge the same

But that doesn't say that the price of the 3 J1's is different from the 1J3...

Isn't that what the first quote says? If J1 price == J3 price, then, save for a J1 price of zero, 3 J1's != 1 J3. Or am I missing something else?

 

[aramis]

The Bk 1-3 rules, as written, can be validly interpreted either way. Bk 7 and Adv 13 not withstanding, if one is doing a pure Bk1-3 game or a ProtoTrav game, pricing per Parsec can be inferred from the text.

One ticket at 3x the J1 price { Cr(J3)=3*Cr(J1)) is equally as valid a solution to the textual equation S4 quotes as is Cr(J3)=Cr(J1), as it says "ticket", not "Passage price"...

The text doesn't become clear for RAI until Adv13 or Bk 7, both well over 10 years later. It was a HUGE argument value for many, especially since the standard design

 

[Spartan159]

Y'know, all this back and forth makes me wonder, just what is best for playing the game? What makes more sense economically?

 

[vegas]

Y'know, all this back and forth makes me wonder, just what is best for playing the game? What makes more sense economically?

Only per parsec makes sense economically. Arguably there should be a premium for speed too, but with the near 0% interest rates in Traveller, perhaps you could waive the time value away as zero too.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Bk 1-3 rules, as written, can be validly interpreted either way.

Not if you consider how the rule is played--rolling for all cargos a ship can make in one trip from the original world.

There is no other explanation.

I can see how someone would get Straybow's opinion on the rule (and your initial take on the rules), but it is clear that how I've described it is correct when the rule is played.

And, that is supported by Starter Traveller, Book 7, and Adventure 13.

 

[aramis]

Not if you consider how the rule is played--rolling for all cargos a ship can make in one trip from the original world.

There is no other explanation.

I can see how someone would get Straybow's opinion on the rule (and your initial take on the rules), but it is clear that how I've described it is correct when the rule is played.

And, that is supported by Starter Traveller, Book 7, and Adventure 13.

No, you THINK it is, but reading the rules I don't agree about ST. Bk 7, sure, A11, definitely.

But until those, it was arguable, and for those who don't have them, your one-true-way is merely "one reasonable way"...

 

[Supplement Four]

No, you THINK it is, but reading the rules I don't agree about ST. Bk 7, sure, A11, definitely.

How can you say that LBB7 and A11 are definite but not ST? ST says per trip, just like LBB7 and A11.




As for reading the rule:

1. You roll up every cargo the ship can reach in one trip.

2. A planet that is 3 parsecs out is reachable by a J-3 ship in one trip. Therefore, a J-3 ship is paid Cr1,000 per ton for that trip.

How is there another way to read that rule?

 

[Supplement Four]

No, you THINK it is, but reading the rules I don't agree about ST. Bk 7, sure, A11, definitely.

But until those, it was arguable, and for those who don't have them, your one-true-way is merely "one reasonable way"...

The object was always white, even if you thought it was black before the object was verified to be white.