Cascade Collapse

[kilemall]

The discussion on CE and possibly making it 'more CT' got me thinking about the Cascade or Skill Inflation throughout the various iterations, which of course started with that hallowed expansion, LBB4.

I would like to get some really cool LBB4+ skills in, but do it with that one add-on table of Advanced Education INT 8+. But to do that, I think I need to collapse so many skills, some that duplicate, so that it's simpler yet 'cooler'.

In taking a cold hard look at the skill mechanic, the seeds of Cascade run rampant was implicit in the weapon skills. A vast ability such as Engineering or Electronics is valuated as equal to get as individual weapon Rifle, Laser Carbine, SMG, Foil, etc. etc.

This particularly struck me when we were having that STR lift/carry thread, and reading up on it I found that there should be a skill component that wasn't there without the Athletics cascade skill.

So that got me to thinking, jump/lift/throw and other such actions are amenable to skill rating, and so would martial art moves, just as much as the habits, muscle memory and skill of using guns or blades.

You carry it to the logical conclusion, you get skill bloat. It never ends.

I prefer a simpler but comprehensive approach, at least as a goal.

So, where can we reduce bloat?

I was thinking of a few examples.

Demolitions should be rolled into Combat Engineering.

Vacc Suit should handle Battle Dress and Zero-G Combat. Say, Vacc Suit minus 2 for both, so Vacc Suit-1 is still negative for BD and ZGC, Vacc Suit-2 is 0 skill in both, etc.

Then we get to the Gun and Blade and Vehicle skills, the original Cascade Bloatfest.

I'm thinking just call it Gun/Blade/Vehicle. Then note/roll for familiarity with equipment.

Each new gun/blade/vehicle the character works with requires time to acclimate and get used to it.

Let the players designate equipment they have become familiar with, 1 per skill level or alternatively 1 per term after they get the first skill level.

Then any new equipment that comes along, the need to take to the shooting range/dojo/track and get used to it, work with it, 1 week per skill level including Skill-0. So Skill-3 would take four weeks, etc.

A teacher with skill in both Instruction and the skill/equipment being learned can shave off one week per combined level of skill.

No other training can occur during equipment familiarization.

so, what do you think?

 

[rhialto]

You carry it to the logical conclusion, you get skill bloat. It never ends.

I prefer a simpler but comprehensive approach, at least as a goal.

So, where can we reduce bloat?

I was thinking of a few examples.

Demolitions should be rolled into Combat Engineering.

Vacc Suit should handle Battle Dress and Zero-G Combat. Say, Vacc Suit minus 2 for both, so Vacc Suit-1 is still negative for BD and ZGC, Vacc Suit-2 is 0 skill in both, etc.

Then we get to the Gun and Blade and Vehicle skills, the original Cascade Bloatfest.

I'm thinking just call it Gun/Blade/Vehicle. Then note/roll for familiarity with equipment.

Each new gun/blade/vehicle the character works with requires time to acclimate and get used to it.

Let the players designate equipment they have become familiar with, 1 per skill level or alternatively 1 per term after they get the first skill level.

Then any new equipment that comes along, the need to take to the shooting range/dojo/track and get used to it, work with it, 1 week per skill level including Skill-0. So Skill-3 would take four weeks, etc.

A teacher with skill in both Instruction and the skill/equipment being learned can shave off one week per combined level of skill.

No other training can occur during equipment familiarization.

so, what do you think?

I agree with the principle, and your system seems workable, if only part way towards reducing bloat: it seems there's more to track (training time, familiarization). It definitely seems in keeping with the originally broad skill areas in CT LBB 1-3.

I've done something similar, but taken the further step of assuming whatever skill level a character has in a cascade skill represents their best of the group (melee, firearms, vehicle) and all other variants of it are one level lower.

For example, Blade-2 would confer all other melee weapons at level 1: no need to ever worry about bloat, as we can add any number of new melee weapons to the equipment list. But it does mean I usually have some cleanup to do of pregenerated characters (say in S1 or S4, or adventures) who might have "Blade-2, Foil-1". Sometimes I collapse them (so, to Blade-3 in this case), sometimes I drop the remainder and choose another skill. I think it makes sense for weapons, since all CT characters are assumed to have level 0 in all weapons in LBB1.

 

[flykiller]

Skill Inflation

I like to think of it as skill clarification.

but if you're determined to fit everything into a d6 table then the obvious answer is to think, not in terms of skills, but in skill clusters, careers, and missions. e.g. a "commando" is always going to have gun 2 and demolitions 1, an engineer is always going to have engineering 2 and mechanics 2, a five-term character is always going to have instructor 1, each combat assignment is going to add to a specific skill, and so-on. or whatever combinations you decide are appropriate.

Vacc Suit should handle Battle Dress and Zero-G Combat.

I've always assumed vacc suit included an equivalent level of 0G. but battledress, no way, that's an entire system operated with specific tasks in mind, not just a bubble bucket to keep the air in. someone with vacc suit skill might be able to put it on and not space themselves, but they won't know what to do with it.

 

[atpollard]

I've always assumed vacc suit included an equivalent level of 0G. but battledress, no way, that's an entire system operated with specific tasks in mind, not just a bubble bucket to keep the air in. someone with vacc suit skill might be able to put it on and not space themselves, but they won't know what to do with it.

Yeah, Why would some non-military type know anything about augmented suits!

 

[flykiller]

Why would some non-military type know anything about augmented suits!

well sure, you can come up with a reason or twenty. but to assume it is skill conflation, while to implement the reason is skill clarification.

 

[flykiller]

Why would some non-military type know anything about augmented suits!

and a better answer would be to say that tech and expert systems have advanced sufficiently that the suit, whatever it is, is an expert system and can determine what the wearer intends and is trying to do, either intuitively or interactively or declaratively, and perform accordingly and transparently. but in that case "skill" disappears.

 

[McPerth]

I've always assumed vacc suit included an equivalent level of 0G. but battledress, no way, that's an entire system operated with specific tasks in mind, not just a bubble bucket to keep the air in. someone with vacc suit skill might be able to put it on and not space themselves, but they won't know what to do with it.

From TTB (page 28, skill descriptions):

Vacc Suit: The individual has been trained and has experience in the use of the standard vacuum suit (space suit), incluiding the armored battle dress (...)

(bold is original, underlining is mine)

From LBB 4, page 14, under zero-G combat skill:

Throw 10+ to avoid losing control. Allow the following DMs: (...) Wearing a vacc suit: +2 per level of vacc suit skill

So, it seems that vacc suit may be used for battle dress, but only helps on zero-g whe nwearing one...

See, though, that both, Battledress and Zero-G skills appear in LBB4...

 

[McPerth]

One thing that (IMHO) adds confusion to this is the different meaning the words "cascade skill" has in the different versions of Traveller.

While in CT/MT a "cascade skill" is one htet allows you to choose maong several ones while giving you no knowledge of the other skills in the list (e.g. Space, gun combat or vehicle), in latter versions this case is called "cluster skills", while "cascade skill" is the one that allows you to choose one specialty among several skills, while giving you some experience in the others in the list (e.g. Pilot in MgT, or Gun combat in TNE).

This latter case was called "included skills" (e.g. Combat Rifleman) or "serves as" (e.g. Pilot/Ship's boat) in CT/MT.

So, please, clarfy us which use of the words "cascade skill" are you using, as in various posts you seem to be using different meanings...

 

[flykiller]

The individual has been trained and has experience in the use of the standard vacuum suit (space suit), incluiding the armored battle dress (...)

yeah, saw that 30 years ago, but it doesn't make any sense.

Throw 10+ to avoid losing control. Allow the following DMs: (...) Wearing a vacc suit: +2 per level of vacc suit skill

this on the other hand does.

 

[kilemall]

Cascade, cluster, neither appeals, I want it all gone and simplified.

 

[flykiller]

Cascade, cluster, neither appeals, I want it all gone and simplified.

are lbb1-3 not sufficient?

if by "simplified" you mean "one table" then you could switch to d8, d10, d12, or d20.

 

[McPerth]

Cascade, cluster, neither appeals, I want it all gone and simplified.

Here I fully disagree with you.

I found the use of Cascade (cluster) skills in MT Chargen to be une of its main successes. It at once allowed for a broader range of skills without making endless tables, and allowed for a more "customed" character, by allowing you to choose among several skills, wihtout resorting to full skill choice.

 

[McPerth]

The individual has been trained and has experience in the use of the standard vacuum suit (space suit), incluiding the armored battle dress (...)

yeah, saw that 30 years ago, but it doesn't make any sense.

Throw 10+ to avoid losing control. Allow the following DMs: (...) Wearing a vacc suit: +2 per level of vacc suit skill

this on the other hand does.

Forgive me to say, but I find this contradictory with your latter post

are lbb1-3 not sufficient?

On one hand, you don't like thett vacc suit includes battle dress (so asking for LBB4 skills), while on the other hand you claim LBB1-3 should sufice...

Either I didn't read you well (soemthing I never rule out) or I see this rather contradictory...

 

[flykiller]

Either I didn't read you well (soemthing I never rule out) or I see this rather contradictory...

with "it doesn't make any sense" I'm answering with my view. with "lbb1-3 not sufficient?" I'm responding to his view - if he wants simplification, then should not lbb1-3 be sufficient simplification already?

"I'm going this direction" vs "if you're going this other direction, then why not lbb1-3?"

 

[kilemall]

Here I fully disagree with you.

I found the use of Cascade (cluster) skills in MT Chargen to be une of its main successes. It at once allowed for a broader range of skills without making endless tables, and allowed for a more "customed" character, by allowing you to choose among several skills, wihtout resorting to full skill choice.

My take is to open up the skills to universally being the same as 'Engineering' or Gunnery without cascading to Spinal Weapons or M-drive, and do the character customization on the equipment they actually get their hands on.

Leonardo DaVinci could not break up and rebuild a V-8 even though he would easily be Mechanical-6+ -but give him two months and i'll bet he would be making improvements.

Incidentally, this approach deals with the recent TL issues we've been grappling with- perhaps a character tinkered with TL6 radios back home, but signed on with the Marines and learned TL15 Meson comms and a stint planetside with a TL12 lasercomm relay. More differentiation, IMO, yet you don't have the 'can't figure it out cause I got FA Gunnery for CPR artillery, not Mass Drivers'.

Another factor that I like about this as I continue to cogitate on it is the time cost- takes time to be able to open abilities, but less then full skill increase. An operational thing too, gotta give time for everyone to get comfy with new gear. Can't learn everything, priorities have to be made. That's tough player choices, but still within the few months to a year or two time frame most campaigns play out in.

 

[kilemall]

On the LBB1-3 question, already stated I like a lot of LBB4+ skills that bring new skills and play in and some of the MgT skills (which may be MT or other version skills originally, I don't know the provenance of every skill concept).

Cascading IMO isn't new play value in most cases, and neither is skill bloat, or inflation by too fine a distinction between.

Example, Broker and Trader are two skills in LBB7 that affects different die rolls in the trade system. To me they are prime candidates to be merged into one skill and that skill gets both rolls along with other broad abilities pertaining to commerce.


Now then that's not always the case. Another MgT skill I like is Advocate. The CT skill that is closest is the Merchant skill Legal, they are similar, but Legal is more 'Practical Starman Law' rather then practicing law.

Legal itself is noted as being a near twin for Admin in terms of government/bureaucracy interaction. Arguably I could tie it all into Admin and be done with it, but Admin has the connotation also of running a big enterprise not just interacting. I would probably do a knowledge skill for whatever law, and rather put in Persuade for the actual interaction/lawyering action.

 

[flykiller]

More differentiation, IMO, yet you don't have the 'can't figure it out cause I got FA Gunnery for CPR artillery, not Mass Drivers'.

'pends on the nature of the system. if you parked a wwii naval engineer in front of a nuclear power plant control panel and told him to light it off, he'd just stare at it. and if he did try to figure it out and light it off, he might light it up. on the other hand if the system is automated and operations consist of telling the machine "uh, hit this target with this ammo, I guess" and the machine says "ok" and does it, then you could say the operator "has the skill".

like one of the lbb's says in distinguishing comms from electronics, "anyone can push the button and make the device work", but it's knowing and understanding how the device works that is the skill. e.g. california highway patrol had a problem with some of its radio systems in some areas, because pine tree needle lengths matched the radio frequencies they were using and thus blocked transmission. took 'em a while to figure it out.

so yeah, artillerymen can "figure out" how to use other systems, if you don't mind the casualties and destroyed guns while they learn. "in meson comms we measure altitude from core." "yeah well here on the surface we measure it from sea level. congratulations, you just destroyed a depot bunker. try again."

 

[kilemall]

To use the Engineering for WWII vs. nukey example, the idea would be that both TL6 and TL7 guys can have Engineering-3, but they would have familiarity with their respective power plants. But they can both apply what they already know of power plants to learning the other's TL versions, and because they have the mindset and base of knowledge, they just need to learn the differences and the gotchas.

So WWII Engineer guy would at best be Engineering-0 for the nuke plant, arguably unskilled, but in 4 weeks of intensive training he comes up to speed, much faster then someone learning from scratch.

 

[Jacqual]

I am liking this thread as I run my games with lbb's 1-3 and Citizens of the Imperium. I have added the skills from the other books, but remade the career character creation tables to represent skills added. I have made sections that when a weapon skill was rolled the player chooses the weapon skill from the list of them. I did get rid of Combat Rifleman and just use the skill Rifle for Rifles and shotguns.

I did the same thing for Pilot skills and such. In the case of Vacc suit and Battledress I have Battledress on the Advanced education rolls of Education 8+ and covers Vacc Suit, but Vacc Suit does not cover Battledress in my game. Which means as I now have like 18 careers all done up like lbb's 1-3 with none of the tables from the career specific books.

 

[rhialto]

I am liking this thread as I run my games with lbb's 1-3 and Citizens of the Imperium. I have added the skills from the other books, but remade the career character creation tables to represent skills added. I have made sections that when a weapon skill was rolled the player chooses the weapon skill from the list of them. I did get rid of Combat Rifleman and just use the skill Rifle for Rifles and shotguns.

I did the same thing for Pilot skills and such. In the case of Vacc suit and Battledress I have Battledress on the Advanced education rolls of Education 8+ and covers Vacc Suit, but Vacc Suit does not cover Battledress in my game. Which means as I now have like 18 careers all done up like lbb's 1-3 with none of the tables from the career specific books.

I did something similar, though my driving goal was collapse to LBB1 skills whenever possible. By the time I was done, even with the new careers from S4, I had only added 3 skills to LBB1: Bow Combat, Hunting and Survival. All the new careers had their prior skills tables modified to replace new S4 skills with their closest LBB1 counterpart.