Cascade Collapse

[McPerth]

with "it doesn't make any sense" I'm answering with my view. with "lbb1-3 not sufficient?" I'm responding to his view - if he wants simplification, then should not lbb1-3 be sufficient simplification already?

"I'm going this direction" vs "if you're going this other direction, then why not lbb1-3?"

Then it seems is the first option I gave: I read you wrong...

 

[kilemall]

I did something similar, though my driving goal was collapse to LBB1 skills whenever possible. By the time I was done, even with the new careers from S4, I had only added 3 skills to LBB1: Bow Combat, Hunting and Survival. All the new careers had their prior skills tables modified to replace new S4 skills with their closest LBB1 counterpart.

I'd be interested in your posting that replacement list here, if you could please.

 

[rhialto]

I'd be interested in your posting that replacement list here, if you could please.

Sure, though I don't recall whose original I adulterated...and I would actually try and collapse Hunting into Survival, or ditch the Hunter career entirely.

 

[rhialto]

I'd be interested in your posting that replacement list here, if you could please.

The "Original" tab is someone else's work, "Modified" is mine.

 

[kilemall]

The "Original" tab is someone else's work, "Modified" is mine.

Hmm, those who are of a 'purist' approach vis-a-vis LBB1-3 will greatly appreciate this I'm sure.

I get the choice of many of these, I would do the Electronics for Commo too for instance, but some are a bit odd, Steward for Battle Dress (although very old school for senior officer stewards and the like).

I think the Noble SOC breaks the advancement of Nobility as career, it's supposed to be a promotion-only system to advance their standing. Unless you like a lot of Dukes.

I notice you didn't replace Hunting, why did that get a special treatment, and couldn't Hunting be a potential replacement for Recon (or vice versa)?

 

[rhialto]

Hmm, those who are of a 'purist' approach vis-a-vis LBB1-3 will greatly appreciate this I'm sure.

I get the choice of many of these, I would do the Electronics for Commo too for instance, but some are a bit odd, Steward for Battle Dress (although very old school for senior officer stewards and the like).

I think the Noble SOC breaks the advancement of Nobility as career, it's supposed to be a promotion-only system to advance their standing. Unless you like a lot of Dukes.

I notice you didn't replace Hunting, why did that get a special treatment, and couldn't Hunting be a potential replacement for Recon (or vice versa)?

It's certainly a WIP, and I make no claim to being "done"...that'll come when I'm no longer breathing.

I'll have to look at the Steward/Battle Dress swap, as I don't recall swapping any old skill for old skill.

The Noble SOC issue is a good point, so I will take a look at that.

I didn't really give the Hunter career a good effort, I admit, as I'm on the verge of ditching it as a career entirely. But yes, Recon is a good swap for Hunting as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks!

 

[flykiller]

So WWII Engineer guy would at best be Engineering-0 for the nuke plant, arguably unskilled, but in 4 weeks of intensive training he comes up to speed

(oh I can just hear rickover) he'd be able to break the plant faster and more thoroughly, yeah ....

I was heavily trained for a year and a half, and I almost put my ship in drydock for six months. if I hadn't been heavily trained for a year and a half I _would_ have put it in drydock for six months. with some things you just need full and appropriate training.

 

[BwapTED]

HUNTER CAREER


http://i1.wp.com/thefwoosh.com/wp-c...nd-Yutani-Commando-Promo-1.jpg?resize=513,340

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/neca-series-8-18.jpg

Sure, some are probably ex-(Colonial) Marines, but Hunter would fit.

 

[kilemall]

(oh I can just hear rickover) he'd be able to break the plant faster and more thoroughly, yeah ....

I was heavily trained for a year and a half, and I almost put my ship in drydock for six months. if I hadn't been heavily trained for a year and a half I _would_ have put it in drydock for six months. with some things you just need full and appropriate training.

Ya, I think I will harden that familiarity thing to unskilled until they go through 0 then up through whatever skill level.

<Shrug> adjust the times for intellectually difficult skills vs. muscle memory/reflex skills then, doesn't alter the principle that they can learn faster through understanding principles or have advanced troubleshooting/tuning skills.

I LIVE this at my work, having done 1970s era computing until now. I may not be turned loose with free reign on a modern server like I did with the old boxes, but I can grasp things a lot faster thanks to that comparative equipment background, and I often end up ferreting out techniques and options the newer guys don't even know or think to ask about.

I also learned how to do things carefully, and design for support-ability and minimal administration/busywork over the long haul. I can apply that to any machine or process, even though it may not be my 'original familiarity' equipment.

That being said, a highly complex enviornment does take about a year to absorb, even with comparative experience.

 

[kilemall]

An initial pass at skill merge/subsume-

Skills Retained Skills Merged/Subsumed
Vacc Suit Battle Dress ZeroGCbt

Electronics Commo

Gunnery FA Gunnery Heavy Weapons

Recon Fwd Obs Hunting

Persuade Bribery Liaison Recruiting

Streetwise Broker Trader

Investigation Interrogation

Cbt Engineering Demolitions

Vehicle Ships Boat Air/Raft Air Cascade Wheeled Cascade Tracked Cascade Watercraft Cascade Equestrian + all other vehicle permutations

Engineering Gravitics

Computer Robotics

Tactics Ship Tactics Fleet Tactics

Gun/Blade/Bow Cbt All weapon permutations subsumed by familiarization mechanic

 

[rhialto]

After further review:

Steward for Battle Dress (although very old school for senior officer stewards and the like).

I think I just assumed "What Sailor would learn BD over Steward?" I wasn't replacing with an equivalency, but making a change I thought more sensible (while also removing an S4 skill).

I think the Noble SOC breaks the advancement of Nobility as career, it's supposed to be a promotion-only system to advance their standing. Unless you like a lot of Dukes.

I think my reasoning here was that Navy (+), Other (-) and Doctors (+) skill tables have SOC "advancements", why not Nobles? And of course many mustering out tables have such benefits. But in the implied setting of just LBB1-3, S1, S2 and S4 there might be lots of "ex-Dukes", since there is no consequent additional benefit to being a Duke (e.g., control of one or more systems).

 

[rhialto]

An initial pass at skill merge/subsume-

Skills Retained Skills Merged/Subsumed
Vacc Suit Battle Dress ZeroGCbt

Electronics Commo

Gunnery FA Gunnery Heavy Weapons

Recon Fwd Obs Hunting

Persuade Bribery Liaison Recruiting

Streetwise Broker Trader

Investigation Interrogation

Cbt Engineering Demolitions

Vehicle Ships Boat Air/Raft Air Cascade Wheeled Cascade Tracked Cascade Watercraft Cascade Equestrian + all other vehicle permutations

Engineering Gravitics

Computer Robotics

Tactics Ship Tactics Fleet Tactics

Gun/Blade/Bow Cbt All weapon permutations subsumed by familiarization mechanic

Seems reasonable: now you just need to build the new tables to make these replacements. Or were you just going to have this list of correspondences handy?

 

[McPerth]

I think the Noble SOC breaks the advancement of Nobility as career, it's supposed to be a promotion-only system to advance their standing. Unless you like a lot of Dukes.

I think my reasoning here was that Navy (+), Other (-) and Doctors (+) skill tables have SOC "advancements", why not Nobles? And of course many mustering out tables have such benefits. But in the implied setting of just LBB1-3, S1, S2 and S4 there might be lots of "ex-Dukes", since there is no consequent additional benefit to being a Duke (e.g., control of one or more systems).

I guess what he means is that for nobles, a raise in SOC is a promotion (and vice versa), so, giving a +SOC in the tables is allowing them to promote by skill gain...

See that if you roll initial SOC C, when you position in the noble career you promotion to Rank 2 (baron). If you achieved a +1 SOC by rolling a skill, you'd be Rank 3 (marquis), probably claiming that, as you get promoted, you should roll for another skill...

As the career is, if this same baron is promoted by the promotion roll, he/she will be given the +1 SOC (as he becomes a marquis), aside from taking the skill roll for promoting.

 

[mike wightman]

Here is how I have handled the CT skill list:
admin - broker, legal, trader [I'd trim this list by dumping trader and legal as superfluous]
bribery - interrogation [skills that involve recognising the weaknesses in another]
computer - robotics
electronics - gravitics, robot operation [I'm tempted to put robot operation into the vehicle cascade]
engineering - gravitics, combat engineering, demolitions [I'm tempted to allow gravitics to be picked up instead of mechanical and electronic too mechanical and electronics too]
forgery
forward obs - hunting, recon, survival [this one could be trimmed by naming it recon and dumping the rest]
gambling
gunnery - FA gunnery, heavy weapons
jot
leader - instruction
mechanical - gravitics
medic
navigation - communications, prospecting
pilot
ship's boat
steward - recruiting
streetwise - carousing, liaison [may as well be the same skill, different soc; for list trimming I would remove all bar streetwise and subsume the other skills.]
tactics - ship tactics, fleet tactics
vac suit - battle dress, zero g combat
vehicle - cascade
weapon - brawling, blade, bow, gun

 

[kilemall]

Seems reasonable: now you just need to build the new tables to make these replacements. Or were you just going to have this list of correspondences handy?

I dropped this off as a working list for my own use, and for others to comment on so I can get reality checks/more ideas, such as Mike's list.

 

[rhialto]

I guess what he means is that for nobles, a raise in SOC is a promotion (and vice versa), so, giving a +SOC in the tables is allowing them to promote by skill gain...

See that if you roll initial SOC C, when you position in the noble career you promotion to Rank 2 (baron). If you achieved a +1 SOC by rolling a skill, you'd be Rank 3 (marquis), probably claiming that, as you get promoted, you should roll for another skill...

As the career is, if this same baron is promoted by the promotion roll, he/she will be given the +1 SOC (as he becomes a marquis), aside from taking the skill roll for promoting.

Okay, I see now. One of my other house rules is 2 skills/term for all careers, and no bonus skills for promotions (though I do still allow the automatic skills: I am on the fence about them, though), so this wouldn't have such an effect in my games.

Justification: since the skills are mostly time-boxed (i.e., by term), and the experience system bears this out, I do not see how getting promoted gets one "bonus time" in a career, since all terms are four years.

 

[kilemall]

Okay, I see now. One of my other house rules is 2 skills/term for all careers, and no bonus skills for promotions (though I do still allow the automatic skills: I am on the fence about them, though), so this wouldn't have such an effect in my games.

Justification: since the skills are mostly time-boxed (i.e., by term), and the experience system bears this out, I do not see how getting promoted gets one "bonus time" in a career, since all terms are four years.

The point is not skill count, the point is that the Noble career, unlike all other COTI careers, is about climbing the Noble ladder, and putting +1 SOC in those charts screws up the theme.

It would be like having RANK +1 in a skill table.

 

[rhialto]

The point is not skill count, the point is that the Noble career, unlike all other COTI careers, is about climbing the Noble ladder, and putting +1 SOC in those charts screws up the theme.

It would be like having RANK +1 in a skill table.

Okay, I just don't see it that way, since three other careers (Navy, Other, Doctor) have such an occurrence.

And is another career less noble than a Noble for having SOC B+? I've played that SOC B+ makes one a Noble, but maybe I've misunderstood...

The "skill" tables aren't just skills, right? There is the "Personal Development" table for a reason.

 

[flykiller]

leader -> instruction
navigation -> prospecting
steward -> recruiting

... ?

streetwise - carousing, liaison [same skill, different soc]

no, they're not the same at all, not even close.

wouldn't it be easier just to tell the player "your character has joat4" and start the game?

 

[McPerth]

The key point, IMHO, in this is to keep a balance among the skill broadness and the skill levels an average caracter has.

If you make the skills more specific, or add them, you must give more skills to the characters, or you will have underskilled ones. Likewise, if you broaden the skills, you must restrict the skill levels characters have, or you'll have too powerful ones.

So, as in LBB4-7 you added skills (instruction, combat engineering, demolitions, ship tactics, fleet tactics, etc...). you must give them more skill levels, or where one was skilled in many things before (as they were assumed), you now either have the skill or you don't. Hence, I guess, the Advanced Chargen.