Cascade Collapse

[kilemall]

The key point, IMHO, in this is to keep a balance among the skill broadness and the skill levels an average caracter has.

If you make the skills more specific, or add them, you must give more skills to the characters, or you will have underskilled ones. Likewise, if you broaden the skills, you must restrict the skill levels characters have, or you'll have too powerful ones.

So, as in LVV4-7 you added skills (instruction, combat engineering, demolitions, ship tactics, fleet tactics, etc...). you must give them more skill levels, or where one was skilled in many things before (as they were assumed), you now either have the skill or you don't. Hence, I guess, the Advanced Chargen.

Excellent point, all take heed of this, its really the most useful post.

Besides mine, of course.

 

[kilemall]

Donwloaded the Stars Without Number free core book just today and skimmed through.

Got thrown initially by the armor definition, until I realized it was literally a D&D AC system. Interesting they outlaw armor more readily then weapons.

SWN- the illegitimate love child of Gary Gygax and Marc Miller.

Anyway, it's relevant to this thread because it has a very superannuated yet flexible and useful skill list. For those interested in this topic, it's worth a look to see a full system that operates largely on McPerth's and my perspective re: named skill to breadth ratio.

 

[kilemall]

So, like to post a file like others did earlier, how do you do that here? I see the attachment option in the files thread and used it successfully, but not here.

 

[GypsyComet]

And is another career less noble than a Noble for having SOC B+? I've played that SOC B+ makes one a Noble, but maybe I've misunderstood...

You can HAVE the rank but not LIVE the rank. This is why Traveller has, over the years of writing that this CT subforum generally ignores, defined the nobility in three broad classes covering Territory, Job, and Just Worth it (termed High, Position, and Honor; or Landed, Ceremonial, and Honor). The Honor Nobles are those promoted for doing something (or born into a noble family with enough power to be treated like the actual Title holder) but not otherwise given a noble job to do. Many PCs fit best into this group, particularly if they were never in the Noble career. A PC that spent time in the Noble career, either for being rolled with a high SOC or (in games that allow it) transfer to the Noble career after a SOC bump from another, is more likely an abdicated, retired, or cashiered High or Position Noble who, through that process, is NOW an Honor Noble only. One of the kids or a niece/nephew now has your old noble job, and you get to do whatever you want with your high social rank, not-as-lucrative-as-all-that bank account, and the wisdom to get away from the job that was going to kill you eventually.

Playing a Noble who is still in their position is akin to playing active career military. It will not really allow the "normal" campaign types in most cases.

 

[kilemall]

Ok Flykiller, been working the familiarization critique you had, and so here is a stab at a system to handle that.

Each broad category of familiarization (A-B-C drives, indirect artillery) takes 6 months per level, including skill-0.

Each specific piece of equipment (a gun, a specific power plant, TL-X toolset) takes 6 weeks per level, including skill-0.

The skill level of the learner divides the time required starting at skill-2 and up.

So.

A TL7 engineer-1 learning the standard A-B-C CT engineering plant will take 6 months to level-0, 12 months to level-1.

But if our TL7 engineer is already level 2, it would take him 3 months each, so 9 months to level 2.

Engineering-3, 2 months each, 8 months to level 3, and so on.

For a crash course on say a rating A power plant on a Free Trader, substitute weeks.

SO Engineering-1 12 weeks, Engineering-2 8 weeks, Engineering-3 9 weeks.

Specific equipment would mean having to learn J-drive and M-drive and Gravitics and Life Support separately- no short cuts.

Remember the shorter times also means the newly minted space engineer from the sticks is also not going to be able to jump over to all the 'gotchas' of a different rated plant/drive.

Sure would like help or rights to post that skill table that was requested- got that done too.

 

[rhialto]

Playing a Noble who is still in their position is akin to playing active career military. It will not really allow the "normal" campaign types in most cases.

Getting back to the CT LBB1 (1981 version quoted, p.9 under "Titles"):
"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power."

I think I understand what you mean by "normal": the way the game was/is "usually" played, but there is at least some acknowledgment from the early RAW that one could play a Noble in a non-normal way. I've been considering this quite a bit, since one of my players has a Marquis and has rightly asked "Do I have anything other than my yacht?"

 

[GypsyComet]

I think I understand what you mean by "normal": the way the game was/is "usually" played

Specifically, as a bunch of retirees, cashiered and/or restless salarymen, escapees from a one-world mold, and similar. What you choose to do from there runs a wide range, but the game generally assumes that patrons are not also PCs. An "active service" Imperial Noble, even a Baron, is mold breaking in ways that the basic game is ill-equipped to handle. If you feel so equipped, go for it.

Your Marquis likely still has contacts from his active years, possibly including (depending on position) his replacement. He may have some property that didn't pass along to the replacement, but at the start of play that property could range from a liability through self-sustaining (or just waiting as potential) to wildly profitable. I'd probably allow any of those but limit the benefits of a profitable property in some other less tangible way: Not being deposited in a bank with off-world connections, feeding a trust fund for some other family member who would be hurt by your tapping, watched (wrongly or rightly) by law enforcement, etc.

He may also have a few perks left over. if he passed through the Knight rank on the way to Baron, that likely isn't subject to retirement in the same ways. "Once a Knight, Always a Knight" as SF writer Poul Anderson was known to say (followed by "but once a King is once too often", based on his experiences in the SCA.), and that can hold in Traveller as well. He might retain a Right to Arms regardless of local law levels, for example, or be able to tap the Navy for a ride if they are going his way. As a Marquis, even retired, his arrivals on a new world are going to be noticed unless he takes steps to stay under the radar. That could be an adventure hook for you (similar to the Companion from Firefly, you get invitations on your comm *constantly*) or even be a liability during the course of some other endeavor. Traveller refs can struggle with the reasons why a local Patron would approach a bunch of space rats in every port, but if one of them is a Marquis Without Portfolio, the PCs will attract all sorts of pleas, offers, threats, and other inducements to adventure.

 

[rhialto]

He may also have a few perks left over. if he passed through the Knight rank on the way to Baron, that likely isn't subject to retirement in the same ways. "Once a Knight, Always a Knight" as SF writer Poul Anderson was known to say (followed by "but once a King is once too often", based on his experiences in the SCA.), and that can hold in Traveller as well. He might retain a Right to Arms regardless of local law levels, for example, or be able to tap the Navy for a ride if they are going his way. As a Marquis, even retired, his arrivals on a new world are going to be noticed unless he takes steps to stay under the radar. That could be an adventure hook for you (similar to the Companion from Firefly, you get invitations on your comm *constantly*) or even be a liability during the course of some other endeavor. Traveller refs can struggle with the reasons why a local Patron would approach a bunch of space rats in every port, but if one of them is a Marquis Without Portfolio, the PCs will attract all sorts of pleas, offers, threats, and other inducements to adventure.

This is essentially how I've played it so far (running through the Sky Raiders trilogy): his detail carries their weapons pretty much wherever they want, and the Marquis is constantly afforded courtesies normal folks aren't. Even though he has just a title, a yacht and a rapier...

But in the future I think it would be interesting to play something more along the lines of Dune, where a Noble would have actual "ruling power". It would be a completely different style of game, and require more work.

 

[Supplement Four]

When it comes to skills, skill bloat, skill cascades, I don't worry about it at all. In CT, you can have Revolver as a skill, or you can get it in the Pistol skill or the Handgun skill from LBB's 4 & 5.

They can all exist easily in my CT universe.

Why?

The universe is not standardized. People learn skills in different ways. Thus, if you get a revolver, and you practice with it, and never use a different weapon because you don't own anything else, then you have Revolver as a skill. But, if you are in the Army or Marines, and you are exposed to use of a lot of different weapons, then Pistol is the skill you get, allowing you to spread your expertise among both AutoPistol and Revolver. Still, if you are in the Navy, and your experience also includes snubs, then Handgun is the skill you get, allowing your expertise to be spread on all three types of hand held slug throwers in the game.

Instead of cutting down on the number of skills used in the game, I would go the other way. I'd have a clear set of skills--say that used in LBB1--but also consider cascading to like skills.

The game kinda-sorta does this anyway by making all of the weapons in LBB 1 default skills for careers in LBB 1. But, if you roll up a character using Supp 4, then you don't get that benefit. That's because the Supp 4 careers, for the most part, are non-military.

I've got no problem swapping out Revolver skills for Pistol or Handgun if it fits the character's background. For example, if you use LBB 1 generation, and roll up a Naval character. And, he gets Revolver-1, whether I allow that to be changed to Pistol-1 or Handgun-1 depends on what the player I decide is the character's background.

If he's a one termer, and we decided that he was base security on a world, but still in the Navy, he probably never used snubs, so Handgun is out. And, I'd probably go with Revolver over Pistol. I'd also be influenced by the world's TL.

But, if he guy, we decide, has a specialty where he goes around popping derelict spacecraft--the first one in to check the thing out. Then, I'd be inclined to allow the character to have Handgun.

It all depends on what they learned, where they learned it, and how they learned it.

 

[kilemall]

When it comes to skills, skill bloat, skill cascades, I don't worry about it at all. In CT, you can have Revolver as a skill, or you can get it in the Pistol skill or the Handgun skill from LBB's 4 & 5.

They can all exist easily in my CT universe.

Why?

The universe is not standardized. People learn skills in different ways. Thus, if you get a revolver, and you practice with it, and never use a different weapon because you don't own anything else, then you have Revolver as a skill. But, if you are in the Army or Marines, and you are exposed to use of a lot of different weapons, then Pistol is the skill you get, allowing you to spread your expertise among both AutoPistol and Revolver. Still, if you are in the Navy, and your experience also includes snubs, then Handgun is the skill you get, allowing your expertise to be spread on all three types of hand held slug throwers in the game.

Instead of cutting down on the number of skills used in the game, I would go the other way. I'd have a clear set of skills--say that used in LBB1--but also consider cascading to like skills.

The game kinda-sorta does this anyway by making all of the weapons in LBB 1 default skills for careers in LBB 1. But, if you roll up a character using Supp 4, then you don't get that benefit. That's because the Supp 4 careers, for the most part, are non-military.

I've got no problem swapping out Revolver skills for Pistol or Handgun if it fits the character's background. For example, if you use LBB 1 generation, and roll up a Naval character. And, he gets Revolver-1, whether I allow that to be changed to Pistol-1 or Handgun-1 depends on what the player I decide is the character's background.

If he's a one termer, and we decided that he was base security on a world, but still in the Navy, he probably never used snubs, so Handgun is out. And, I'd probably go with Revolver over Pistol. I'd also be influenced by the world's TL.

But, if he guy, we decide, has a specialty where he goes around popping derelict spacecraft--the first one in to check the thing out. Then, I'd be inclined to allow the character to have Handgun.

It all depends on what they learned, where they learned it, and how they learned it.

Perfectly legitimate approach.

In a sense with this familiarization mechanic I'm building in something that feels like progress ingame for the character without making them uber powerful or extending beyond the bounds of chargen.

It's just that pulling in all those delicious skills from the LBB4-7 books and what I consider to be critical ones from MgT1E, I ended up confronting the LBB1 paradox of having AutoRifle-1 vs. Engineering-1 and what a vast gulf of effort difference that meant.

That and cascading skills meant somehow the character is not applying what they learned in firing Gauss Rifles to firing Revolvers. They ARE different, and different muscle memory, but there is experience that can apply one to the other. I'm now saying you can have Gun-2 with effective Gauss Rifle-2 and Revolver-2, and can take the time to learn Laser Pistol-2 in lieu of one of the other self-improvement processes, and within reasonable game time.

 

[Supplement Four]

That and cascading skills meant somehow the character is not applying what they learned in firing Gauss Rifles to firing Revolvers. They ARE different, and different muscle memory, but there is experience that can apply one to the other.

I like the "Serves As" skill rules from MT.

I don't have exact examples without digging out MT, but the gist was something like this...

Revolver serves as AutoPistol

Revolver servers as SnubPistol minus one.

I'm sure that MT didn't do weapon skills like that, but it does illustrate the point. If you've got Revolver-2, then it's the same as having AutoPistol-2. If you've got Revolver-2, then it's the same as having SnubPistol-1.

Not unlike the CT use of Pilot and Ship's Boat at one level lower.





I tend to take a broad definition of skills in CT. I do this mainly because CT characters get so few skills. I don't mind making those skills stretch if it makes sense. Plus, expertise does overlap in a lot of skills.

If a skill is related, then I have no problem allowing the character to apply the expertise to the same skill or at one level lower.

For example, Gunnery skill. I'd allow Gunnery to serve as Sensors minus one if a Sensor check was needed.

 

[kilemall]

I'm widening it too, and for similar reasons. I'm wanting those delish skills without an LBB4+ skillganza character, and also I'm increasingly persuaded to the 2-3 skill per term per any chargen approach.

Different means to a similar end, I think.

Sensors is actually a really good example of my approach.

Sensor roll is primarily Electronics, the use aspect of the skill (which is why I rolled up Commo into it).

Navigation gets full DM for tracking, -1 for detection and lockon, Gunnery gets full DM for detection and lockon and -1 for tracking (which all has a specific meaning).

Ship's Boat, I've changed all those to Pilot and it can just be a familiarization selection/goal.

 

[kilemall]

Eeeergh, no attaching files here, so this is the link to my file thread for this-

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=564620&postcount=2

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't worry about a skill list or a formal list showing which skill serves as which other skill.

In game, when it comes up, I allow it if it makes sense, then I move on.

For example, the ATV overheats, and nobody's got Mechanical skill. But, a character does have Engineering skill. In this case, you bet. Use your Engineering skill in place of Mechanical, and let's get on with the game!

 

[infojunky]

Eeeergh, no attaching files here, so this is the link to my file thread for this-

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=564620&postcount=2

Perchance do you have just a list of skills and changes as well?

 

[kilemall]

Perchance do you have just a list of skills and changes as well?

If you mean which ones I substituted for what else, it's in the file, third tab, near the bottom.

Fourth tab is just for ease of printing to stick in my extant CT books, and would also show you the extra table I added, basically another Advanced Skill table with INT 8+ instead of EDU. That's the table that got most of the new skills plus getting gambling or some other missing options to various careers. Most of the ones I put in the classic tables are straight up substitutions.

 

[rhialto]

Interesting, thanks very much for this. I may reconsider adding some of these new skills to my career tables...

Did you scrub for frequencies of occurrence? For example, Pirates are now twice as likely to get Tactics as both Army or Marine, unless the latter two have EDU 8+. I guess you can justify that, somehow: it's a Pirate's life to always be plotting their next plunder, Army and Marine have other normal duties.

 

[kilemall]

Interesting, thanks very much for this. I may reconsider adding some of these new skills to my career tables...

Did you scrub for frequencies of occurrence? For example, Pirates are now twice as likely to get Tactics as both Army or Marine, unless the latter two have EDU 8+. I guess you can justify that, somehow: it's a Pirate's life to always be plotting their next plunder, Army and Marine have other normal duties.

Remember I'm using the familiarization mechanic and eliminating Ship and Fleet Tactics as separate things.

So the usual Tactics-1 pirate likely is going to choose familiarization with small unit/boarding tactics, higher levels would get him familiar with ship/fleet/armor/wet navy whatever.

And I'm good with the probability, tooth to tail differences between a military organization vs. pirates would probably support that kind of ratio.

 

[infojunky]

If you mean which ones I substituted for what else, it's in the file, third tab, near the bottom.

I actually noticed that..... After I posted...

 

[kilemall]

One of the other issues with fusing the LBB4+ skills into the regular chargen is how many skills should one get?

Of course classically one got something like Army and a lot of skills, but often booted out 'early' due to the reenlist roll. Scouts guaranteed two skills and the potential for a free ship to play with, but has that killer survival roll. Nobles can get a free and clear yacht, but promotion is tough and skill sets would be way down.

I like the general idea of a flat 2 skill rolls per term- fits into the character improvement section, in which you are lucky to keep dedication and get 2 at all- often it works out to 1 skill per term. The Instruction mechanic from LBB4 on would explain the second skill in most cases.

But does that 'unbalance' the chargen? Is it inherent to the Noble generation that they be a bit useless except for a few hard chargers going up the ranks? Do Seekers and Hunters getting two skills AND potentially a ship get powered up too much? Is it iconic for most merchant characters to quit once they aren't going to make captain and a chance for a free trader?

Opinions?