Character development

[Madmacabre]

Hello all,


I am still in the process to read the Mongoose core book (with 2 kids, not a lot of free time) and there is one thing that I need to clarify.

There are no XPs for character development? So the only way to learn new skills or to increase the ones you already have is to spend some study time? There are no mechanics to increase a character during active times?

Therefore, a character that is always busy and in the middle of the action will never actually get better?

As as for long-term chronicles, does it become a little stale if your character does not really improve?

 

[robject]

I am still in the process to read the Mongoose core book (with 2 kids, not a lot of free time) and there is one thing that I need to clarify.

I know exactly how you feel (1 kid and 1 wife = not a lot of free time).

There are no XPs for character development? So the only way to learn new skills or to increase the ones you already have is to spend some study time? There are no mechanics to increase a character during active times?

Therefore, a character that is always busy and in the middle of the action will never actually get better?

As as for long-term chronicles, does it become a little stale if your character does not really improve?

It's a paradigm shift. Characters in Traveller are usually much more capable than 1st level characters in D&D, for instance. And player focus is still divided between the adventure, weapons, armor, property, and gaining influence.

Besides, if done right, training can happen in designated "rest periods" during or between adventures.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Hello all,


I am still in the process to read the Mongoose core book (with 2 kids, not a lot of free time) and there is one thing that I need to clarify.

There are no XPs for character development? So the only way to learn new skills or to increase the ones you already have is to spend some study time? There are no mechanics to increase a character during active times?

Therefore, a character that is always busy and in the middle of the action will never actually get better?

As as for long-term chronicles, does it become a little stale if your character does not really improve?

The basic idea is that your character trains when they're jumping from system to system. That's a full week where you can knock out training time.

Having such static characters annoyed my group. We came up with our own XP system. The basics was:
XP to improve skill - (current skill level + next skill level)
learning new skill - 3 xp

So going from - to 0 costs 3,
going from 0 to 1 costs 1,
going from 1 to 2 costs 3,
going from 2 to 3 costs 5, etc.

We hadn't come up with a characteristic improvement way yet, but I'm thinking the same should be true as the skill system (since you're dealing with higher numbers to begin with).

So going from a 7 to an 8 would cost 15 and
going from a 12 to a 13 would cost 25.

I gave an average of 2 xp out per session.

 

[ThunderChilde]

So far the only way to improve a stat is by implants, which I find a kludgy way to do things. In MTU the easiest stat to change is EDU. Get some and it goes up, 'natch. Not fast mind you, but reasonable none the less.

In the training of physical stats, IRL ask any gym rat. The easiest and fastest improvement come early, then you plateu and have to grind to get better. So 1-2 points will be easier to achieve, more will take a lotta work, and ideally, they need to keep at it, or they will slide back to where they started.

Skills, training during jump, or "tween" mish times covers that; or they can look for NPC's with the "Training" skill from Mercenary to pick up skills faster. Naval characters using MGT/HG can also get the training skill, opening up different skills for the players. The GM has the tools to use if he wants to to get the job done.

 

[robject]

In the training of physical stats, IRL ask any gym rat. The easiest and fastest improvement come early, then you plateu and have to grind to get better. So 1-2 points will be easier to achieve, more will take a lotta work, and ideally, they need to keep at it, or they will slide back to where they started.

Assuming characters are the diligent sort who want their physical stats high, one might assume that they muster out at their plateau.

BUT for the sake of players who want their characters to improve, the referee is in the best position to decide what requirements and improvement rates are best for each player.

Back to skills: since a small change goes a long way, improvement may not be as noticeable, and therefore perhaps not as rewarding, as players are used to. One help would be for players to track progress via decimal numbers: training in a skill may raise it from a 3 to a 3.1 in 3 weeks, or from 4.5 to 4.6 in 4 weeks, etc.

 

[mike wightman]

The whole point of CT experience was it was usually gained in the pregame.

There were experience rules but these limited characters to the same rate of advancement as during character generation.

This is a good thing IMHO. Two weeks of gaming should not make a character as experienced as a 7 term veteran.

 

[Whipsnade]

There are no XPs for character development?

Madmacabre,

Because, leaving T20 aside, Traveller isn't D&D. Traveller has a completely different paradigm.

So the only way to learn new skills or to increase the ones you already have is to spend some study time?

Yup, just like in real life.

There are no mechanics to increase a character during active times?

Not exactly. As far back as CT Traveller has had rules that allowed people to gain skills by using those skills. What Traveller won't let you do on the cheap is increase a characteristic. That takes time.

Therefore, a character that is always busy and in the middle of the action will never actually get better?

See above.

As as for long-term chronicles, does it become a little stale if your character does not really improve?

It depends on what you mean by "improve". If by "improve" you mean a character can comprehend more about their universe, gain more possessions, increase their wealth, improve their physical nature after effort, and learn new skills Traveller has always allowed that.

If by "improve you mean a character guns down X number of enemies, succeeds in Y number of tasks, or solves Z number of puzzles and it then rewarded with automatic points they can spend on skills, statistics, and characteristics, then no characters don't "improve" in Traveller. You need to realize that the model I just described is the D&D model and has been copied into any number of computer games, but it's not the Traveller model and never has been(1).

Traveller is different. You don't build the sci-fi equivalent of combat monsters or fireball wizards only to run them through adventures that are little more than excuses to harvest XPs. A Traveller character grows in different ways. Not better ways, not worse ways, just different ways.

It's a different game after all.


Regards,
Bill

1 - Again leaving T20 aside.

 

[Maccat]

Traditionally, you have the skills and characteristics from the generation. Improvement is usually by use of skills (only 2! weapon *or* others) or like exercising for ST DX EN increase of 1 each. So you pretty much have what you've got.

There are no levels or progression like an arcade game or D&D. If you want to shoot better, practice at it for being somewhat better, or just get a scope! Want to fly a spaceship better? maybe get one that has the maneuver/thrust to dodge more at speed and/or outrun stuff. Want to shoot the ship's weapons better? Add a laser or two, etc. Your drive busts and you can't fix it, somehow succeed in survivng and getting a tow to base, pay for it to be repaired.

As the focus is more on the storytelling and adventures, plus any character is nominally capable at a lot of things just as people are, and good at some things, you do the best you can. The challenge is in taking what you're capable of doing well and using that to succeed!

Lastly it's a game, have fun! there's nothing to be "gained" by doing things certain ways in a game mechanic sense, just have at and have fun!

 

[Space Hamster]

I am not a fan of the level based system, so here is my bias.

If you look at the prior history of character development you will see that it plays through four to sixteen plus years of game time to get where your character is at the time you start playing. This shows an incredible amount of time learning what the character knows. Learning takes a lot of time and the game represents it in prior history.

If you are concerned that the players do not have some skills needed for a mission you can do what they did in the original Star Trek. Introduce Red Shirts. They can go on missions with the players and lend their skills. When they are done they can die in spectacular ways. :rofl:

 

[sergeant_x]

This thread highlights what has become by favorite aspect of the original Traveller game. Traveller separates character development (or, rather, stat development) from the roleplaying - by putting it in the pre-game character creation mini-game, or in extended down-time for "training".

This makes for a very different game from D&D and most other RPGs. Rather than focusing on "hero-building" as the point of the game, play becomes about the adventures of the characters, their successes and failures, their lives and deaths.

The important thing to realize is that the lack of an advancement ladder in Traveller isn't an oversight, it's design element that distinguishes it from most other RPGs. Or, to put in programmer parlance, "It isn't a bug, it's a feature".

 

[Murdoc]

Ok, I can accept that this is a different rpg "paradigm", and that it is not trying to build "heroes", but focus on the roleplaying and stories and such. I'm down with that. But I would not go so far as to say that it is anything like being realistic. There are a number of good examples out there where experience in the field is far more valuable (read: higher skill levels) than simple training. Social skills are typically a good example of this, as are skills used in times of stress, like combat. Granted there are counter-examples as well, and ones even where they are about equal. It is probably a bit too complicated realistically to try an model well with rules, but it does grate on my sense of realism about as much as people gaining more skill levels in one game-year of playing as they did in 4-16 years of prior career (vampire games are some of the worst for this since it may be 10-200 years of prior experience!).

Plus I'm not so sure about this idea that the more you know, the harder it is to learn things 'paradigm'. Take languages for example. It's well known in the field that the more languages you know, the easier new ones are to learn. But of course there are few games that actually acknowledge this (some of the newer White Wolf games do, which I like).

But my group and I are still trying MGT out, licking the tires as it were. I think only through playing it (read: experience in the field) will we really figure out if this detracts from the game or not.

 

[sergeant_x]

But I would not go so far as to say that it is anything like being realistic.

Yeah. You make some good points. Some kind of experience accumulation is probably more realistic.

But my group and I are still trying MGT out, licking the tires as it were. I think only through playing it (read: experience in the field) will we really figure out if this detracts from the game or not.

Like most any game, it depends more on the players and GM than the rules. Even if you add some kind of skill advancement, it won't become the point of play unless that's what the players want. And if that is what they want, so much the better. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Original_Carl]

Traveller characters can improve their skills by training them. The rules for improving skills are covered at the end of the skills chapter in the Pocket Rules (probably the regular rulebook, too, but I don't have that one).

Training costs time and money. Time is calculated based on the total number of skill points you have plus the target level of the skill under training. You can train one skill, one point at a time. Monetary cost is up to the Referee, but I usually charge 10,000 credits per skill level for materials up to level 3. Level 4 and beyond I charge 20,000 per skill level.

Improving ability scores can be done through implants. I allow improving Social Standing through service to the Imperium, and improving Education by charging 2 years per point of improvement (plus tuition, housing, and materials).

Traveller characters aren't static. They change and develop over time and can be improved. However, the concept of "levelling" your character does not exist. Adventuring nets you money, equipment and fame. It's a very different style of role-playing game.

 

[far-trader]

...There are a number of good examples out there where experience in the field is far more valuable (read: higher skill levels) than simple training. Social skills are typically a good example of this, as are skills used in times of stress, like combat.

Exactly. In Traveller that's called "Career Generation" where you spend literally years in full time employment of your skills in a challenging environment. Then, after your career, when you begin "adventuring" it is harder to improve those skills or gain new ones.

IT seems to me a very realistic system. What it is not is a system that allows rapid improvement in player's abilities to take and cause more damage which is what most players coming from leveling games want and expect. No wrong or right here, just different.

Plus I'm not so sure about this idea that the more you know, the harder it is to learn things 'paradigm'. Take languages for example. It's well known in the field that the more languages you know, the easier new ones are to learn.

To a degree I think you're right for languages, but only to a degree. It's as it applies to languages of the same family isn't it? And language skills are also most easily learned when younger right.

As for the "more you know the harder it is" it is a fair paradigm for most skills and such. There is also a tendency to plateau where further improvement is very hard if not impossible. Both are reflected by the rules and the career generation step. During your career you explored what you're good at and got about as good as you could at most of it (including your stats). What's left when you start adventuring are perhaps some hobby/introductory skills you never had a chance to pursue beyond that level (i.e. level-0 skills) and maybe some skills you hadn't yet peaked in (i.e. level-1+ skills you want to improve) but in your current circumstances improving them will be a challenge. Maybe there are some new skills you want/need too, but again learning them and getting good at them won't be easy.

But my group and I are still trying MGT out, licking the tires as it were. I think only through playing it (read: experience in the field) will we really figure out if this detracts from the game or not.

Absolutely. And a great attitude to take with it. Try it as it is. See how it feels for you. Then decide through careful deliberation if and how much you need to tweak it. Then after seeing how that works share those tweaks if they are good

 

[robject]

To a degree I think you're right for languages, but only to a degree. It's as it applies to languages of the same family isn't it? And language skills are also most easily learned when younger right.

Language is like a muscle: the more you exercise it the stronger it becomes. Learning your third language is easier than learning your second, regardless of language family. It was easier for me to learn Japanese (my 3rd) than Spanish (my 2nd).

At the same time, the older you are, the harder it is to learn. Usually you learn most of your career skills in your 20s. Retooling is possible, but again that implies a training period -- call it a second career, or education, study and certification, or something else.

 

[Klaus]

There needs to be some advancement for characters with only one or two terms, especially if other players have veteran characters. Actually, the RAW work quite well in this regard. Advancement will be relatively rapid for 22 year olds with only 4 or 5 skill levels, glacial for the 42 year old with 20 odd levels.

 

[sergeant_x]

One thing I tend to do in most of my games, that works particularly well with Traveller, is to provide lots of down time for offstage character development. This not only provides time for training, but it ages older characters faster creating a disincentive to max out chargen terms.

I also just like the pacing it produces. When you look at the amount going on in the lives of a typical rpg party, it's kind of ridiculous. Characters have lives apart from the their featured adventures and advancing those lives during down time gives a nice context for the adventures AND provides training opportunities for those interested.

I picked up this habit from Pendragon where it is the recommended approach. PCs generally aren't expected to have more than one adventure every year or two of a character's life. It allows for development of character associations and relationships as well, even making multi-generational play possible (characters having children that players take over when the original PC dies or is otherwise unfit to play).

I've been thinking of working on a system for Traveller similar to Pendragon's "winter phase" algo that generates events and development for PC downtime. Any interest? I was thinking of doing it as a web app. Maybe something that GMs could customize for their own campaigns.... hmmmm

 

[far-trader]

An excellent approach sergeant_x

Reminds me of the ideas that the week in jump space was down time and adventures happened only during planetfall and not always then. So months could easily pass between adventures just getting from A to B

Worthy of a writeup if you feel inclined. Might even be doable as a full on Mongoose supplement. Something like the various char-gen career expansions some are doing, but geared to PC development during adventuring through long downtime. Sort of a post-career sabbatical approach.

 

[Space Hamster]

Actually in the real world you tend to specialize in a very narrow skill. You actually loose skills that you no longer use. Bottom line this is a game and meant to be fun and not an attempt at real life.

The main reason I am a big fan of not changing the character power level is that it makes it easier to create material now then hold off on using it until later. You know it will work later without change. In a level based game the players do not really get more powerful. Relative to the challenges they face at any given time they are the same. When the players are level 20 you do not send them on level 12 missions as they would get board. You send them on level 20 missions. That level 12 mission you decided was not right for the story when they were level 12 now needs to be reworked to make it level 20. You tell the players it's a good thing that all your enemies are leveling at the same rate as you are or thing would be weird. I am using levels in an abstract way to represent character advancement.

I think things that are good for story development are the characters gaining contacts, getting access to better equipment (getting licenses to possess different technologies. etc.), and over all knowledge of the game world. By better equipment I do not necessarily mean more powerful equipment. As some posters have said before about increasing social skills, I think gaining contacts is an abstract way of achieving that.

 

[hdan]

One idea I've played with is this: Since the UPP includes skill lists and ratings, and presumably is part of the standard documentation that the Imperium keeps, the listed skill level represents an actual certification that a character has. So a "Pilot-2" can produce documentation that proves her Pilot-2-ness to a prospective employer, etc.

(I also consider getting a weapon at muster-out time to include a license to carry that sort of weapon, which I'm pretty sure is part of the standard rules?)

(Also - this explanation doesn't work as well for things like "JoT", but for sake of uniformity, I still include it.)

If you want to increase your skill level, you need to take a standardized test at an Imperial base of some sort, and provide logs showing that you have completed the required level of study before hand to be eligible for the exam.

In practical terms, this means that my players can study up on a given subject during their "jump week" free time, making a roll to see if they actually complete the "unit". They may need to purchase tutorial software if no instructor is available.

Once enough units have been completed, they can attempt the exam for the higher rating. Taking the exam is not free, but it's traditional (in MTU) for employers to subsidize their employee's exam fees. Many ships also have tutorial software for basic ship duties available already - any working Merchant ship will have Level-0 materials for all ship and economic systems they need, so players can aquire a basic familiarity with job-relevant skills easily.

Many players won't bother with this of course, though I generally encourage players to find a skill they would like to improve. Also, beyond Skill-2, an actual school or institute is required for study, or active employment with that skill. So an Engineer-2 who was working as a ship's engineer could study for Engineer-3, but couldn't just "study up" to that level if there were no drives around to practice on.