"Classic Traveller Plus"?
- Thread starter Marchand
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Before T5 was announced Hunter Gordon proposed an updated version of CT which maintained the simplicity of CT but would use the benefit of the lessons learned over the course of several Traveller iterations.
When T5 was announced CT+ was dropped, so a few of us started speculating on how we would do it.
Search CT+, or check the threads I started about it back in 2005
Note that MgT is pretty close to a lot of the suggestions we came up with...
When T5 was announced CT+ was dropped, so a few of us started speculating on how we would do it.
Search CT+, or check the threads I started about it back in 2005
Note that MgT is pretty close to a lot of the suggestions we came up with...
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Except "CT+" won't work as a search term on CotI.Search CT+, or check the threads I started about it back in 2005
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Ok I'll post the links then:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5002
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5048
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5051
They are old threads so there are formatting issues.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5002
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5048
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=5051
They are old threads so there are formatting issues.
Before T5 was announced Hunter Gordon proposed an updated version of CT which maintained the simplicity of CT but would use the benefit of the lessons learned over the course of several Traveller iterations.
When T5 was announced CT+ was dropped, so a few of us started speculating on how we would do it.
Search CT+, or check the threads I started about it back in 2005
Note that MgT is pretty close to a lot of the suggestions we came up with...
A parallel project was Avenger's Classic Traveller; it wasn't cancelled with T5 announcement, but was cancelled around the MGT license deal.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I also had a task system for CT that I called CT+.
ACT was indeed a cleaned-up CT, centering on a DGP/MT-like task system, High Guard-like starship design, generally regularizing and rationalizing the core CT books into three rulebooks. I would suggest that it was a stripped-down MT, except the things which I think made MT distinctive were absent from ACT. MJD did a good job putting it all together.
And not all was in vain. The equipment section of ACT morphed into Mongoose Traveller's "Central Supply Catalogue".
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Was it a big book of guns then, too?
The CSC should have started from a basis of MT's Imperial Encyclopedia, instead of a gun show catalog.
The first time I thumbed thru the MgT CSC, I said to myself, said I, this looks mighty familiar.
Equipment is paradoxically hard to do. It requires a considerable amount of editing and input in order to give it just the right content.
MT's Imperial Encyclopedia's equipment section is fantastic. It hits just the right size and content. In other words, it's already got the content decided and listed for you, in carefully appropriate and proportional amounts; go forth and port. Yeah, you're right, that should have been the place to start.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
The "Experience Rule" is also covered on page 29 of the Traveller Book, under "Maximum Skills".
Basically, the rules says that a character can have no more total skill levels than the total of his INT + EDU.
For example, if your character has INT-7 and EDU-9, then you would sum up all of a character's skills. The total cannot be larger than 16.
Although it's not cited as such here, in other references, the sum of a character's INT + EDU is refered to as the character's Experience.
I do like this rule in the game. I know MT uses it, but I think it was dropped from rule sets after MT (and, I'm not sure if it is referenced in every CT edition).
Basically, if you've got a dumb, un-educated character, he is limited on the number of skills he can have. For example, if a character has INT-3 and EDU-4, then the character is limited to a total of 7 skills levels. If the character has AutoRifle-3, Engineering-2, Forgery-1, Admin-0, Vacc Suit-0, and Ship's Boat-1, he cannot learn any more skills or improve the ones he has.
With a character like that, the character is forced to use the CT experience rules to improve His EDU score.
In other words, the boy needz sum learnin', an iffin he gets it, he'll has room fo mo skillz. He can improve a skill he has or learn a new skill.
Basically, the rules says that a character can have no more total skill levels than the total of his INT + EDU.
For example, if your character has INT-7 and EDU-9, then you would sum up all of a character's skills. The total cannot be larger than 16.
Although it's not cited as such here, in other references, the sum of a character's INT + EDU is refered to as the character's Experience.
I do like this rule in the game. I know MT uses it, but I think it was dropped from rule sets after MT (and, I'm not sure if it is referenced in every CT edition).
Basically, if you've got a dumb, un-educated character, he is limited on the number of skills he can have. For example, if a character has INT-3 and EDU-4, then the character is limited to a total of 7 skills levels. If the character has AutoRifle-3, Engineering-2, Forgery-1, Admin-0, Vacc Suit-0, and Ship's Boat-1, he cannot learn any more skills or improve the ones he has.
With a character like that, the character is forced to use the CT experience rules to improve His EDU score.
In other words, the boy needz sum learnin', an iffin he gets it, he'll has room fo mo skillz. He can improve a skill he has or learn a new skill.
And he can't learn any more physical skills no matter how strong and agile he may be. I have a big problem with that. On the other hand, our INT-3, EDU-4 character could theoretically learn Science-7 if the dice fell just right. I have a problem with that too.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I do not like that rule.
There are quite a few characters in 1001 characters that break it for one thing, for another it didn't exist in CT or revised CT before TTB.
It defeats the skills trumping stats trope of CT too.
In CT pre-TTB and the stupid rule you could have a 4 term Army vet with an Int and Edu of 4 that has 10 skills - a very playable character.
Using the stupid rule the character is wasting their time after term 1 since they learn nothing new (a bit silly).
Modify it to say no more skills than Int+Edu and it may be playable, otherwise I will never use it.
There are quite a few characters in 1001 characters that break it for one thing, for another it didn't exist in CT or revised CT before TTB.
It defeats the skills trumping stats trope of CT too.
In CT pre-TTB and the stupid rule you could have a 4 term Army vet with an Int and Edu of 4 that has 10 skills - a very playable character.
Using the stupid rule the character is wasting their time after term 1 since they learn nothing new (a bit silly).
Modify it to say no more skills than Int+Edu and it may be playable, otherwise I will never use it.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Also note that an often overlooked aspect of CT is that characters, straight out of character generation, can use the CT Experience system to immediately improve a skill or gain a new skill.
For example, let's look at the first sample character provided on page 30 of the Characters chapter in the Traveller Book.
Navy 557AF7 Age 30
4 terms Cr0
Computer-1, Gunnery-1, Vacc-1
Traveller's Aid Society
Page 37 of the Traveller Books tells us that all Player Characters have all of the usual weapons shown in that book as a default skill. That is, each PC has all of the usual weapons at Skill-0. So, even though the character above doesn't have any weapon skills, he will not be penalized by the Untrained Weapon Usage rule if he picks up an AutoRifle and starts blasting away. He will be treated as if he has AutoRifle-0.
The player running this character can go a step further to improve the character before play by using the CT Experience rules.
First, the character must make an 8+ Dedication roll, with no DMs. If this roll is not successful, then the character cannot try again until a full game year has passed for the character.
If the roll is successful, then the character can use the Weapon Expertise program to IMMEDIATELY improve one weapon skill and one blade skill.
In this example, the player will want to choose either the Carbine or the Shotgun as his character's weapon skill because of the character's DEX-5 (avoiding DEX penalties). Let's pick the Shotgun.
With STR-5, there are a lot more choices, and for this character, let's pick the Blade.
Given the Experience rules, the character shown above can be improved with Shotgun-1 and Blade-1, straight out of chargen, if the Dedication throw is successful.
The character will look like this as play begins:
Navy 557AF7 Age 30
4 terms Cr0
Blade-1, Computer-1, Gunnery-1, Shotgun-1, Vacc-1
Traveller's Aid Society
Now, according to the Experience rules, those Blade-1 and Shotgun-1 added skills are not permanent to the character unless the 8 year training program is completed. BUT, if the training Dedication throw is made, the character can benefit from the improved skills for 4 GAME YEARS!
Here's another neat part to the Experience rules. Let's say that the character above finds a high tech metal club that can deliver an electrical shock for extra stun damage on a successful hit. The character is considered to have the skill Club-0, right?
Well, the player can drop the training program on the Blade (at which point, the skill will revert to Blade-0) and pick up training with the club. In effect, his Blade-1 skill will drop to Blade-0 and his Club-0 skill will improve to Club-1. The catch is that a character can only attempt a new training program but once per game year.
So, the best thing to do is keep the Blade-1 skill for a full year, and at that point, drop it for the Club-1 skill. But, remember, the 8+ Dedication throw must be made in order for the new Club program to be undertaken (otherwise, it will be another year before the roll can be tried again in order to improve the Club skill).
Whether the Dedication throw for the Club is made before or after the Blade training is dropped is not addressed in the rules and is in the purview of the Ref. A hard Ref might make a player decide to chance the Dedication throw AFTER the Blade training is dropped. An easier Ref might allow a player to know the outcome of the Dedication throw for the Club before the player has to make a decision on whether to drop the Blade training.
I lean to the latter. Skills in CT are scarce enough. Why not allow players to keep their current training program if they are unable to change it to a different weapon?
This illustrates how the CT Experience system can be used to allow players some limited tailoring ability with their characters.
For example, let's look at the first sample character provided on page 30 of the Characters chapter in the Traveller Book.
Navy 557AF7 Age 30
4 terms Cr0
Computer-1, Gunnery-1, Vacc-1
Traveller's Aid Society
Page 37 of the Traveller Books tells us that all Player Characters have all of the usual weapons shown in that book as a default skill. That is, each PC has all of the usual weapons at Skill-0. So, even though the character above doesn't have any weapon skills, he will not be penalized by the Untrained Weapon Usage rule if he picks up an AutoRifle and starts blasting away. He will be treated as if he has AutoRifle-0.
The player running this character can go a step further to improve the character before play by using the CT Experience rules.
First, the character must make an 8+ Dedication roll, with no DMs. If this roll is not successful, then the character cannot try again until a full game year has passed for the character.
If the roll is successful, then the character can use the Weapon Expertise program to IMMEDIATELY improve one weapon skill and one blade skill.
In this example, the player will want to choose either the Carbine or the Shotgun as his character's weapon skill because of the character's DEX-5 (avoiding DEX penalties). Let's pick the Shotgun.
With STR-5, there are a lot more choices, and for this character, let's pick the Blade.
Given the Experience rules, the character shown above can be improved with Shotgun-1 and Blade-1, straight out of chargen, if the Dedication throw is successful.
The character will look like this as play begins:
Navy 557AF7 Age 30
4 terms Cr0
Blade-1, Computer-1, Gunnery-1, Shotgun-1, Vacc-1
Traveller's Aid Society
Now, according to the Experience rules, those Blade-1 and Shotgun-1 added skills are not permanent to the character unless the 8 year training program is completed. BUT, if the training Dedication throw is made, the character can benefit from the improved skills for 4 GAME YEARS!
Here's another neat part to the Experience rules. Let's say that the character above finds a high tech metal club that can deliver an electrical shock for extra stun damage on a successful hit. The character is considered to have the skill Club-0, right?
Well, the player can drop the training program on the Blade (at which point, the skill will revert to Blade-0) and pick up training with the club. In effect, his Blade-1 skill will drop to Blade-0 and his Club-0 skill will improve to Club-1. The catch is that a character can only attempt a new training program but once per game year.
So, the best thing to do is keep the Blade-1 skill for a full year, and at that point, drop it for the Club-1 skill. But, remember, the 8+ Dedication throw must be made in order for the new Club program to be undertaken (otherwise, it will be another year before the roll can be tried again in order to improve the Club skill).
Whether the Dedication throw for the Club is made before or after the Blade training is dropped is not addressed in the rules and is in the purview of the Ref. A hard Ref might make a player decide to chance the Dedication throw AFTER the Blade training is dropped. An easier Ref might allow a player to know the outcome of the Dedication throw for the Club before the player has to make a decision on whether to drop the Blade training.
I lean to the latter. Skills in CT are scarce enough. Why not allow players to keep their current training program if they are unable to change it to a different weapon?
This illustrates how the CT Experience system can be used to allow players some limited tailoring ability with their characters.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
That may be an interesting House Rule. But, the physical skills are STR + DEX + END. You'll almost always have high totals that allow as many physical skills as the character can gain in chargen or by using the Experience system.
I don't have an issue with that. "if the dice fell just right" is key. It's very unlikely, if the CT chargen rules are followed (and the real Survival Rule is used and not the Optional Survival Rule). And, even in the very rare occurence that it did happen, I could see someone focussing their entire life in one area to become an uber master without knowing much of anything else.
Hard to tell, with all the revisions that CT saw. Like the Pulse Laser rule showing up only in Starter Traveller.
I disagree. Stats definitely have their place in CT. Throw 2D for a stat or less is an often used throw. If you want to throw a Blade, then a character uses his full DEX score as a modifier on the throw. And, stats definitely modify or govern a lot of throws: For example, the DEX modifiers to Gun Combat attack throws; END used to count the number of Blade Combat rounds until the Weakened Blow penalty is assumed; various DMs on throws based on level of stat, etc.
Any character in CT, regardless of stats or skills, is "very playable", imo.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I would argue that the characters you cite in 1001 Characters do not actually break the rule.
My reasoning: There's nothing in the Maximum Skills rule that addresses "rolling back" skills if a character gets through chargen with a total number of skill levels that exceeds the character's Experience score.
What would you do? Roll randomly to see which skills have to be lowered? Reduce the highest skills first? Player's choice?
I think that if a character gets through chargen like this, then that's where the character starts play. In fact, chargen is the only way a character can obtain more total skill levels than his Experience score allows. The Experince System is not open to a character like this (as far as skill improvement goes--the Physical Program would certainly be open).
If a character like this wishes to improve a skill or add a new skill, then he must use the Experience system to increase his EDU score so that his Experience score is higher than the total sum of his skill levels.
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