Colt Dragoon.

[Blue Ghost]

Continued form the Old West weapons thread, I was watching another western and saw a monster of a revolver; an old Colt Dragoon. The thing looked like it could blow a hole through a concrete block.

Anybody care to venture what some stats for it might be? Would it have a plus modifer to its damage?

Thoughts?

 

[shadowdragon]

Dragoons

it can't blow a hole through a concrete block, it demolishes them.

I think the prevailing thought here is the extra damage from the increased caliber is mostly offset by the weaker powder and increased mass of the bullets. IIRC a shoot-off between a ruger super blackhawk .44 mag and a walker .44 mag produced nearly identical results, but the ruger came out ahead at the end, IMHO due to advanced metallurgy, smokeless powder and bullet design.
Also a shorter barrel decreases the amount of powder able to be burned before the bullet exits the muzzle, so at a certain point adding more black powder is useless in pistols, but rifles can keep going and going ....... nevermind

then again i am prolly wrong

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/dragoon.htm

 

[Arthur Denger]

Colt Dragoon

This was the pistol immortalized by Clint Eastwood in his picture, The Outlaw Josie Wales, wasn't it?

Anybody care to venture what some stats for it might be? Would it have a plus modifer to its damage?

Thoughts?

No doubt about it, this was a serious piece of ironmongery. I'd think it would perform as a revolver in the (Classic Traveller) range matrix, with a negative DM at close range but a larger positive DM at short (EDIT) range, and with a similar drop off at long range. On the weapons matrix (versus different armor types), I'd treat it as a carbine. (EDIT: There should probably also be a slight negative DM at medium range, since the Dragoon's rear 'sight' is actually nothing more that a V-shaped notch in the pistol's hammer, which instantly goes away when the trigger is pulled.)

I would be very tempted to treat this pistol as a shotgun for damage purposes, (EDIT: however, some sources describe the Dragoon as comparable in performance to the modern .357 Magnum revolver, so damage would be the normal 3D) however I'd also impose a higher dexterity requirement than for revolver. Additionally, I'd impose a special negative DM for strength. Massing almost 2kg (base weight=1900 grams), this hand cannon (what else can you call it?) would be very difficult for the average person to control with any degree of accuracy.

(EDIT: Late model Dragoons could be fitted with a removable shoulder stock, helping rectify the range problem, treat as carbine -1)

That said, I am no small arms expert, so my assumptions could be in error.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Very interesting. I actually saw it referenced in John Wayne's "True Grit", though I'm sure Eastwood used the weapon in his film.

 

[gbooth]

IIRC the Colt Dragoon was intended to be carried in a saddle holster. In terms of muzzle energy and even momentum I think that the .44 Magnum is probalby way ahead of any blackpowder revolver. It is my understanding that the Colt Navy model, and to a lesser extent, the Colt Army model, was renowned for good handling characteristics. Much may be learned by reading posts in the black powder forums at such sites as The High Road. I have read that Elmer Keith wrote that two Civil War vets that he interviewed told him that the Colt Army killed as well as any .38 special. One vet had often shot cattle with his revolver when foraging. He stated that the round ball was generally a better killer but that he favored the conical bullet if he expected to shoot an animal in the head because the conical bullet penetrated bone better than the round ball.

I have a book at home that lists muzzle velocities for various diameters of round ball and various charges of black powder. If anyone is interested in the information, I will post some of it.

Tom

 

[Arthur Denger]

IIRC the Colt Dragoon was intended to be carried in a saddle holster.
...
One vet ... stated that the round ball was generally a better killer but that he favored the conical bullet if he expected to shoot an animal in the head because the conical bullet penetrated bone better than the round ball....

That makes sense; this model would be very hard to carry by today's standards, short of web gear. It seems surprising that some pistoleros apparently carried up to a half dozen of these!

I wonder if the range and accuracy of a conical bullet might not also have been better than ball, due to its elongated shape and more surface area contact with the lands of the rifling. Think thrown soccer ball vs. (US) football. Were Dragoon's (and other mid-19th-century sidearms') barrels rifled?

 

[Blue Ghost]

My dad used to own something similar back in the 60s, and I saw it fire a handful of times. A very loud and high maintenance weapon. It required some kind of grease for the ball, if I recall correctly. I don't recall too much about it other than that. The movie helped refresh my memory.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Yes, Dragoons where rifled. As where many Civil War rifles (using Miniee Bullets), not to mention weapons like the Dreyse over in Prussia.

The positive effects of rifling where known since a bunch of colonial terrorists disguised as local natives destroyed some perfectly good tea in a New England harbor over such unimportant things as a seat in the house of commons. The Ferguson Rifle or the Baker (of Sharps fame) are examples as is the Jager Rifle used by some thieving hill tribes from southern germany.

What kept rifling out of the military was the low speed of loading compared to a smoothbore (getting slower by every shot fired). The WelshGuards Museum in Caernavon had a nice video showing Peninsula War soldiers loading Brown Bess and Bakers.

==================

Edit1:

Did the Pistoleros really carry Dragoons? The Colt Navy and Colt Patterson where availabel earlier than the Walker and Dragoon and are a lot smaller/lighter. Patersons are rated as equivalent to .380Auto by some sources, Walkers as .357Magnum equivalents

===================

Edit2:

The reason for greasing the bullet is to prevent the flame from one chamber igniting the powder in another. Originally shooters either used wadding or pre-made "paper-bullets" made from highly flamabel and brittle paper that included everything but the percussion cap, not the earlier stuff used in the Napoleonic war that was just a storage container.

 

[gbooth]

I don't know whether or not the conical bullets are more accurate than round balls. Some of the shooter's on a blackpowder forum where I sometimes lurk state that their modern replica can and ball revolvers shoot as accurately as cartridge revolvers (I think with round balls, as most seem to shoot those).

The felt wads and/or grease and, more importantly, the required prompt cleaning of blackpowder guns has prevented me from getting into the sport as I am lazy. The grease also helps to keep the powder residue soft and reduces hindrance of cylinder rotation by the residue.

Tom

 

[Arthur Denger]

Yes, Dragoons where rifled. As where many Civil War rifles (using Miniee Bullets), not to mention weapons like the Dreyse over in Prussia.
...

Did the Pistoleros really carry Dragoons? The Colt Navy and Colt Patterson where availabel earlier than the Walker and Dragoon and are a lot smaller/lighter. Patersons are rated as equivalent to .380Auto by some sources, Walkers as .357Magnum equivalents...

Thanks for the clarification, Michael. I figured the Dragoons had rifled barrels, but some of the early revolvers were pretty primitive, so I thought I'd better ask.

Reportedly, members of Joaquin Murietta's gang in 1850's California made extensive use of the Colt Dragoon. That would make sense, since the pistol was originally service issue to the USMR, seeing its first action in the Mexican-American War. Apparently, one or more of the gang carried up to six of these pistols. Though how much of this is truth and how much has been embellished into legend is debatable.

For purposes of Traveller, based on your information, damage would be as normal for revolver (3D). The Third Model Dragoon did have a modification to the frame for a removable shoulder stock. With stock fitted, the Dragoon could then be treated as per a carbine (-1 ?) for range modifiers.