Colt Dragoon

[Blue Ghost]

So, I was watching the original "True Grit" with John Wayne the other night, and the female lead Matty has a Colt Dragoon. My father used to have one, and a friend of the family used to take me shooting with it many eons ago.

For those in the know, how much more powerful is this black powder weapon compared to contemporary big hand guns?

 

[sabredog]

Roughly that of a modern .38 Special but less easy to shoot. The old Dragoon weighed about 4lbs and used a shorter barrel than it's parent revolver, the Walker. It wasn't as powerful as the Walker but it's cylinder didn't explode sometimes, either.

The recoil, based on firing replicas owned by my buddy (who also has a set of "Josey Wales" .36 Navy revolvers I far prefer to shoot for just the coolness factor) is different than that of a modern 38 but that's really because the muzzle flip is more pronounced with the cowboy style grip. A modern magnum handgun is easier to handle mainly because of grip and frame design advances helped by materials technology - in the old days you had to make the a gun big enough to hold a bigger powder charge, and a longer barrel to get it to shoot straighter with more energy down-range, and the whole thing then got a lot heavier so you could fire it at all....and you can see where all that goes. Modern guns get their power from better powder, bullet design, metallurgical advancements, and experience. So while an old Dragoon looks like a super hand cannon, (and it was back in the day), it's still about average for today.

They are accurate out to about 80 yards, and that also puts them on par with a .38 Special. Yes, you can hit farther out, but the energy dump drops fast. No matter what Hollywood shows it's still a handgun and won't knock a guy out of the saddle unless you want to risk breaking your own wrist firing it. But it would probably make him fall out of the saddle from the shock and pain of the impact which I imagine is a might unsettling.

Which is why the Dragoon's daddy, the Walker, weighed almost 5 lbs and was issued with a saddle holster so the trooper could carry it. But it was also a couple inches longer and more like a .357 magnum in power. It just took a lot of metal around the beast to keep it from blowing itself apart with repeated use. It still did that often enough, though, that the Dragoon was developed to replace it.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Wow, interesting. All I remember is that it one hell of a racket with every trigger pull. Black powder muskets were loud, but so was this thing. And yeah, it didn't flip up like a traditional six shooter but pushed you back. It was also a messy weapon; i.e. greasing the chamber for the balls and what not. Messy and greasy.

I also asked because I sometimes wonder why older technology gets fazed out if it worked just as well (if not better) than the newer thing. Not just weapons, but everything in general. My dad's old Colt was such a thing that I always wondered about. When I saw police as a kid they always seemed to use those short snub nosed 38s, and I wondered why they didn't use bigger guns (as if it made a difference...which I guess it can... I don't really know). And just kind of in general too.

I wonder how a police officer would be looked upon if he packed a modern replica of one of those things instead of whatever it is they use these days. Oh well.

 

[sabredog]

LOL, yes, they are really messy to load and shoot. I always look like I fought at Gettysburg or something after an afternoon playing with my friend's muzzle-loader rifles and black powder pistols. I hate loading the cylinders.

Well, my uncle in the CHP carried a revolver that looked and sounded like a cannon to me back in the '60's and 70's, but times changed when theories of crime fighting and gun fighting evolved. As semi-autos became more reliable and lighter in weight, the advantage of faster reloads combined with more ammo per reload became to obvious to ignore.

And all those rounds make it possible (as we are taught) to engage multiple targets - not just blast away randomly. And that can be too often the case. The FBI shootout in 1986 is what really made all agencies painfully aware of the need to get away from revolvers and carry something with more firepower (as in more ready ammo, not just power).

Also, newer calibers and advances in materials mean you can now carry a Glock 22 .40SW with 16 rounds ready to fire and have it weigh less than the good old .38 special. And just as, or more accurate. And more powerful. Even a 9mm shooting HST or +P is nothing to sneeze at in the hands of a trained operator.

But there is still something to be said for a big revolver that sounds like a naval cannon when it goes off that just looks cool and is fun to shoot. Maybe that's a good enough reason for revolvers to be in Traveller even when nobles could just as easily carry a laser?

 

[Blue Ghost]

LOL, yes, they are really messy to load and shoot. I always look like I fought at Gettysburg or something after an afternoon playing with my friend's muzzle-loader rifles and black powder pistols. I hate loading the cylinders.

*snip*

But there is still something to be said for a big revolver that sounds like a naval cannon when it goes off that just looks cool and is fun to shoot. Maybe that's a good enough reason for revolvers to be in Traveller even when nobles could just as easily carry a laser?

That's kind of how I remember my boyhood shooting with dad and friends of the family. Regular guns made loud bangs, and you had to plug your ears. Old guns made really big bangs, and no amount of ear cover would stop you hearing them.

I would think that there would be an intimidation factor associated with carrying one of those things as well.

Imagine a bridge crew on board some cruiser about to go into action against an Aslan invasion force. Some lieutenant strides onto the bridge, clipboard in hand, armed with a Colt Dragoon replica, but mayhap fitted to fire modern ammunition. I can see the captain and rest of the staff looking at their palm sized LASER pistols and scratching their heads.

Captain; "Son, where'd you get that piece of machinery?"
1st Lt.; "My ma sent it to me"

 

[Jame]

But there is still something to be said for a big revolver that sounds like a naval cannon when it goes off that just looks cool and is fun to shoot. Maybe that's a good enough reason for revolvers to be in Traveller even when nobles could just as easily carry a laser?

I dunno; I've always liked the Webley Mk. VI myself.

As for nobles ... well, IMTU any that carry their own weapons would carry gauss pistols. Revolvers would usually be seen as a sign of either poverty or "barbarism" - those *few* that carry them would be nobles of TL5* worlds who show solidarity with them.


* = remember, I use the GT tech scale for TL 0 - 7 even with using CT/MGT for everything else.

 

[captainjack]

I had it be a status/fashion statement that came and went with time. During the campaign I ran, it was the fashion for nobles to carry ornate and highly tweaked large caliber revolvers; in one case a player (very far from a noble -named "vinnie") was treated as a noble at a backwater planet when he wore his Player-character special with his usual overly flashy civvies. Big fun when everyone found out what was the haps....

And I set up at least one short adventure around he players being chased by collectors and the Ine Givar when they were delivering a package that turned out to contain the revolver used to assassinate Cleon the mad......

Fun time, you betcha.

 

[sabredog]

I dunno; I've always liked the Webley Mk. VI myself.

As for nobles ... well, IMTU any that carry their own weapons would carry gauss pistols. Revolvers would usually be seen as a sign of either poverty or "barbarism" - those *few* that carry them would be nobles of TL5* worlds who show solidarity with them.


* = remember, I use the GT tech scale for TL 0 - 7 even with using CT/MGT for everything else.

I have the revolvers as something worn by nobles as formal wear along with swords. A revolver is for if you were in the Army or Marines, a sword if in the Navy. So IMTU it provides a sort of traditional identification with the branch and its history. Naturally they are irrelevant when attending a court or mess function that has Marine honor guards carrying gauss rifles (not to mention the ones kept behind closed doors in battle dress and FGMPs at court), but that's about the only time a noble officer, former or currently serving, will be wearing anything like that.

Among non-noble officers (which are essentially nonexistent in my burgeoning and young Terran Empire where being one of the "nouveau nobility" is all the rage) the current fashion is to almost defiantly (as interpreted by their "betters") wear more modern sidearms to mess and formal occasions. It makes the others whisper and snicker to see that.

Dueling is also coming into fashion among the young noble set, so the older and wiser types figure that at least if a duel is started at a ball between two young drunken idiots over the same girl they can't as likely kill one another with revolvers or swords when the rules dictate just first blood drawn. Especially with modern medical gear and personnel never far. It still can happen, but it's less likely than if laser or gauss pistols come out.

Although there are some who buy custom made (because the "Good Old Days" are the rage) dueling pistols that fire a single high caliber round that will do as much or more damage than a gauss pistol. The older nobles just shake their heads at that sort of thing and wonder how the young ever manage live to old age.

 

[Kaeto]

Actually the way most revolvers were done in the cap and ball era was to use paper cartridges. Which were a cylinder of paper like cigarette rolling paper and inside that cylinder was the lead ball and the powder. You placed the cartridge in the cylinder chamber powder first and used the rammer to seat it home. Then you put the cap on the nipple and you were ready to shoot.

That's what I do when I take out to shoot my 7 Cap and Ball revolvers. I also own a 1863 Sharps carbine clone and 2 muzzle loading rifles. And I enjoy shooting my Mark VI .455 Webley.

In Traveller I have a Noble who unlike her peers doesn't carry a fancy revolver. On her hip is an issue autopistol with very well worn grips. The wear is the kind you get from combat use and the wear points match her hand perfectly.

 

[aramis]

A few people used cloth cartridges, instead of paper, but yep... percussion cap n ball "cartridges" were usually paper. Some people I know, especially for larger bore (0.75" and up) smoothbore charges, use tinfoil for the powder case, and simply ram a separate bullet.

Also, the firing manuals of the period instruct to grab the ball with your teeth, pour the powder, fold the paper, and ram the ball and paper together.

I don't own a C&B weapon, but I've fired a bunch. Including a couple 2-lb cannon using standard caps.

And as for "irrelevant"... no. Any weapon, right down to a .22CB pen-gun, is a threat. (Ok, if I shoot you in the back of your jean jacket with a .22CB, all you'll get is a nasty bruise... )

 

[Kaeto]

The tearing off the end was for rifles. I have a scan of the original instructions for loading a Colt revolver and it says to just put the cart into the chamber.

 

[sabredog]

Actually the way most revolvers were done in the cap and ball era was to use paper cartridges. Which were a cylinder of paper like cigarette rolling paper and inside that cylinder was the lead ball and the powder. You placed the cartridge in the cylinder chamber powder first and used the rammer to seat it home. Then you put the cap on the nipple and you were ready to shoot.

That's what I do when I take out to shoot my 7 Cap and Ball revolvers. I also own a 1863 Sharps carbine clone and 2 muzzle loading rifles. And I enjoy shooting my Mark VI .455 Webley.
.

The grease that you sealed the cylinders with was to keep out moisture - rain and dew, when the trooper was carrying the weapon loaded and ready all-year round in the field. For quicker reloads Remington designs allowed for the cylinder to removed using a lever under the barrel. So troopers (this beast was designed as a cavalry weapon, not for the infantry, although officers had them) carried extra cylinders sometimes, and those were greased over to seal them as well.

Paper cartridges for muskets and rifles were also lightly greased for the same reason in the cap n' ball era (like the ACW) to keep the cartridges dry in the soldier's cartridge box on his belt.

So here in Oregon, unless its a nice sunny, dry day, one adds a greased wad after the ball in a musket and a wad of grease over the front of the cylinders of a blackpowder revolver or it's likely you'll have plenty of hang-fires or nothing at all.

 

[Jame]

I have the revolvers as something worn by nobles as formal wear along with swords. A revolver is for if you were in the Army or Marines, a sword if in the Navy. So IMTU it provides a sort of traditional identification with the branch and its history. Naturally they are irrelevant when attending a court or mess function that has Marine honor guards carrying gauss rifles (not to mention the ones kept behind closed doors in battle dress and FGMPs at court), but that's about the only time a noble officer, former or currently serving, will be wearing anything like that.

Among non-noble officers (which are essentially nonexistent in my burgeoning and young Terran Empire where being one of the "nouveau nobility" is all the rage) the current fashion is to almost defiantly (as interpreted by their "betters") wear more modern sidearms to mess and formal occasions. It makes the others whisper and snicker to see that.

Dueling is also coming into fashion among the young noble set, so the older and wiser types figure that at least if a duel is started at a ball between two young drunken idiots over the same girl they can't as likely kill one another with revolvers or swords when the rules dictate just first blood drawn. Especially with modern medical gear and personnel never far. It still can happen, but it's less likely than if laser or gauss pistols come out.

Although there are some who buy custom made (because the "Good Old Days" are the rage) dueling pistols that fire a single high caliber round that will do as much or more damage than a gauss pistol. The older nobles just shake their heads at that sort of thing and wonder how the young ever manage live to old age.

I like this now. 'S cool.

 

[Kaeto]

With my autopistol toting Noble it's well known amongst the nobles she is part of that to challenge her to a duel is the same thing as commiting suicide.

 

[Putraack]

Imagine a bridge crew on board some cruiser about to go into action against an Aslan invasion force. Some lieutenant strides onto the bridge, clipboard in hand, armed with a Colt Dragoon replica, but mayhap fitted to fire modern ammunition. I can see the captain and rest of the staff looking at their palm sized LASER pistols and scratching their heads.

Captain; "Son, where'd you get that piece of machinery?"
1st Lt.; "My ma sent it to me"

Reminds me of the scene in the old Steve McQueen movie "The sand pebbles." Richard Crenna is the gunboat's skipper (and only commissioned officer), and as they are about to attack a Chinese boom on the river, he puts on his dress whites, saber, and a holstered .45.

 

[sabredog]

Imagine a bridge crew on board some cruiser about to go into action against an Aslan invasion force. Some lieutenant strides onto the bridge, clipboard in hand, armed with a Colt Dragoon replica, but mayhap fitted to fire modern ammunition. I can see the captain and rest of the staff looking at their palm sized LASER pistols and scratching their heads.

Captain; "Son, where'd you get that piece of machinery?"
1st Lt.; "My ma sent it to me"

I like this image and it keeps bugging me. I imagine the drawl of the young officer, who probably is here on his first assignment and from a backwoods type of planet. He probably did really well in school so he got into the Navy as some unexpected young genius at quantum Jump mechanics or something.

So his "Ma" gets him what they figure on their world (where the newspapers are like 6 months out of date by the time some Free Trader gets them there) is what young gentlemen wear at court and in the officer's mess in the Navy. Because maybe a long time ago they used or some such as they heard anyway. She gets her boy this fine replica Dragoon monster and send sit to him thinking of what a fine figure he will cut at mess, unknowing at the time that his first chance to wear it is in battle when he leads a small unit of Marines in boarding an Aslan cruiser.

The young officer draws his Dragoon hand cannon and calls, "Follow me!" over the heads of the crouching Marines stacked up to enter the enemy ship, gauss rifles at the ready. They storm in and there stands a group of Aslan snarling and ready to brawl when the officer levels his Ma's gift and everyone is rendered instantly deaf from the thunderous boom of the .45 slug blasting a hole in the chest of one Aslan, dropping the warrior in his tracks.

The Aslan pause with eyes wide and dilated form the shock, and the Marines take the split second to finish them off and then charge on to victory with the usual "snap! snap!" of gauss rifles. A legend is born and soon after it is noticed that other officers start sporting similar revolvers as sidearms and it gradually becomes something of a mark of distinction for officers serving on that particular warship.

 

[DaveChase]

...

The young officer draws his Dragoon hand cannon and calls, "Follow me!" over the heads of the crouching Marines stacked up to enter the enemy ship, gauss rifles at the ready. They storm in and there stands a group of Aslan snarling and ready to brawl when the officer levels his Ma's gift and everyone is rendered instantly deaf from the thunderous boom of the .45 slug blasting a hole in the chest of one Aslan, dropping the warrior in his tracks.

The Aslan pause with eyes wide and dilated form the shock, and the Marines take the split second to finish them off and then charge on to victory with the usual "snap! snap!" of gauss rifles. A legend is born and soon after it is noticed that other officers start sporting similar revolvers as sidearms and it gradually becomes something of a mark of distinction for officers serving on that particular warship.

Hmm, sounds like something right out of Honor Harrington and her 45 auto.

LOL

But it does make an interesting story.

Dave Chase

 

[Blue Ghost]

I like this image and it keeps bugging me. I imagine the drawl of the young officer, who probably is here on his first assignment and from a backwoods type of planet. He probably did really well in school so he got into the Navy as some unexpected young genius at quantum Jump mechanics or something.

So his "Ma" gets him what they figure on their world (where the newspapers are like 6 months out of date by the time some Free Trader gets them there) is what young gentlemen wear at court and in the officer's mess in the Navy. Because maybe a long time ago they used or some such as they heard anyway. She gets her boy this fine replica Dragoon monster and send sit to him thinking of what a fine figure he will cut at mess, unknowing at the time that his first chance to wear it is in battle when he leads a small unit of Marines in boarding an Aslan cruiser.

The young officer draws his Dragoon hand cannon and calls, "Follow me!" over the heads of the crouching Marines stacked up to enter the enemy ship, gauss rifles at the ready. They storm in and there stands a group of Aslan snarling and ready to brawl when the officer levels his Ma's gift and everyone is rendered instantly deaf from the thunderous boom of the .45 slug blasting a hole in the chest of one Aslan, dropping the warrior in his tracks.

The Aslan pause with eyes wide and dilated form the shock, and the Marines take the split second to finish them off and then charge on to victory with the usual "snap! snap!" of gauss rifles. A legend is born and soon after it is noticed that other officers start sporting similar revolvers as sidearms and it gradually becomes something of a mark of distinction for officers serving on that particular warship.

Kind of how I pictured it.

 

[Kaeto]

I like this image and it keeps bugging me. I imagine the drawl of the young officer, who probably is here on his first assignment and from a backwoods type of planet. He probably did really well in school so he got into the Navy as some unexpected young genius at quantum Jump mechanics or something.

So his "Ma" gets him what they figure on their world (where the newspapers are like 6 months out of date by the time some Free Trader gets them there) is what young gentlemen wear at court and in the officer's mess in the Navy. Because maybe a long time ago they used or some such as they heard anyway. She gets her boy this fine replica Dragoon monster and send sit to him thinking of what a fine figure he will cut at mess, unknowing at the time that his first chance to wear it is in battle when he leads a small unit of Marines in boarding an Aslan cruiser.

The young officer draws his Dragoon hand cannon and calls, "Follow me!" over the heads of the crouching Marines stacked up to enter the enemy ship, gauss rifles at the ready. They storm in and there stands a group of Aslan snarling and ready to brawl when the officer levels his Ma's gift and everyone is rendered instantly deaf from the thunderous boom of the .45 slug blasting a hole in the chest of one Aslan, dropping the warrior in his tracks.

The Aslan pause with eyes wide and dilated form the shock, and the Marines take the split second to finish them off and then charge on to victory with the usual "snap! snap!" of gauss rifles. A legend is born and soon after it is noticed that other officers start sporting similar revolvers as sidearms and it gradually becomes something of a mark of distinction for officers serving on that particular warship.

"I like it!"

 

[Selandia]

Just to add a bit on the topic of "why revolver in the laser age?" not claiming that this is the total of considerations, just some left aside.

Prohibition to own military type weapons; a common restriction in Europe before wwii that, amongst other things, forced people to buy .25 ACP or .32ACP auto (while nowaday they are prohibited in Canada as pocket pistol). So no laser weaponry or even auto pistol at some place. Would also work if no Civilian ownership of semi auto with more than 5 rounds...etc.

Ease of use, pistol require minimum training to clear jam/stove pipe/double feed etc safely. DA Revolver's problem with duds, underloaded rounds, broken extractor, ejector, magazine lips or anything that interfered with slide operation either does not exist or is solved by another pull of the trigger. Civilian with casual (if any) training could handle pistol in unusual stress situation more easily.

Selandia