Combing weapon skills

[creativehum]

Having been in the military and worked with people and weapons, I would not use that at all. If the person was in a combat unit, maybe, but the much larger number of military personnel are not in combat units, and may fire a weapon once a year for familiarization, and that is it. As for pistols, I definitely would not use that. If you hand someone with only automatic pistol expertise a Single-action Army .45 Colt revolver, I am not sure if he or she could figure out how to reload it without some training, and I am not sure if under pressure they would think to thumb-cock the hammer back.

I'm down with all this. I have always assumed the expertise ranks for weapons in the original Traveller rules goes far beyond most training, and even weekend range shooters.

Remembering that anyone in CT without any training starts at a DM -5 in handling a weapon, I assumed that the getting to rank 0 is actually a big deal. Additional ranks (which on a 2D6 bell curve are a BIG DEAL) involve solid experience with the weapon in repeated combat situations, with live fire and the tension of wounding and possible death. How the weapon feels, how to load in the middle of a firefight from muscle memory alone, the most effective use of cover while firing based on the weapon's length, how it kicks when fired, an instinct for ammo is going to run out, and so on. If the PC has spent time in the field during many combats, getting used to handling it without having to think about it -- then he gets that expertise-1 or higher.

While I can definitely see the game/bookkeeping value of combining weapons, I really love the texture provided by making each weapon category quite distinct.

 

[flykiller]

"leader, administration, streetwise, liaison, and carousing are really all the same skill ...."

I see these as unique skills.

oh they are, most definitely, they all have little to nothing in common. but some see them as being lumped together. "all manner of social relations ...."

I see also Streetwise as a counerpart to Wilderness Survival, meaning Urban Survival too.

only if by survival you mean avoiding harfing off jose so he doesn't knife you to show his homies how he'd better be respected. to me "urban survival" means knowing where to find a warm spot in the winter, knowing which garbage cans have the cleanest leftover food, knowing which cop is likely to bust you for vagrancy, and knowing which random pedestrian can be begged or harrassed for money.

If the non-differentiation is bothersome there're a couple of lightweight options:

I like modifiers. e.g. vacc suit 2*, vs vacc suit 2*(+1 for combat armor, -1 otherwise). electronics 2*, vs electronics 2*(+2 for security systems, -1 otherwise)

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, funny, I see Streetwise as being the low SOC no-gov street opposite of Admin.

I mix in a lot of CE/MgT social skills to cover things and lump them together in my own quirky idea of how they should go. Clarified a lot to go through the CT tables and actually get them in there.

For instance, replaced Deception for Forgery- gives me a skill that covers both classic forging and other grifter con-man type work, along with a handy spy/actor skill too.

 

[McPerth]

only if by survival you mean avoiding harfing off jose so he doesn't knife you to prove to his homies how he'd better be respected. to me "urban survival" means knowing where to find a warm spot in the winter, knowing which garbage cans have the cleanest leftover food, knowing which cop is likely to bust you for vagrancy, and knowing which random pedestrian can be begged or harrassed for money.

Streetwise is more tan jsut treating with the gangs and avoidin being knifed.

See two examples of use of streetwise given in the rules (references to TTB):

• Streetwise expertise allows contact for the purposes of obtaining information, hiring persons, purchasing or selling contraband or stolen goods, and other shady or borderline activities. (skil ldefinition, page 28)
• Locating a Psionic Institute: DM +1 per level of streetwise (page 115 sidebar)

As you see, it's also about locating places or obtaining information.

And as for survival, it may mean finding food or shelter, but it also includes more mundane capabilities that we use every day and don't even realise it, as understanding a subway map, not getting lost in a city or knowing who to ask or where to find what you look for (or even recognizing a forming mob that can end with riots).

And, IMHO, this goes directly in the way of locating places, finding information, etc., and so to streetwise

 

[McPerth]

Having been in the military and worked with people and weapons, I would not use that at all. If the person was in a combat unit, maybe, but the much larger number of military personnel are not in combat units, and may fire a weapon once a year for familiarization, and that is it. As for pistols, I definitely would not use that. If you hand someone with only automatic pistol expertise a Single-action Army .45 Colt revolver, I am not sure if he or she could figure out how to reload it without some training, and I am not sure if under pressure they would think to thumb-cock the hammer back.

While I understand this point of view, see that there are many skills that include many different specialties and are yet treated as a single one.

As someone has already said, Engineering includes many specialties, as does Medic (you shouldn't trust an urologyst to treat a brain illness, just to give you an example), just to give you some examples.

I understand the desire to reduce the number of skills or broaden the area covered, but that is up to the choice of the person running the game and their background. My background is going to be different from most of the forum, so my choices and preferences are going to be different.

That's the key, the number of skills you want to hae into play. The broader they are, the shorter is the list, and so the lesser number of skills should a character have.

If you want more specific skills, as would be each weapon or each medical specialty being a separate skill, each skill level represents less knowledge, and so the characters should have more skill levels to compensate. That's neither good nor bad, just a diferent way to see the game.

In CT, your skill levels is limited to INT+EDU. So, Rambo, having good skill levels (let's say 3) in several weapons, plus survival and brawling, would need to be a genius with very high education (and I guess that's not how he's depicted) if each weapon counts separately, while he does not if they are in broader categories.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's my take on multiple skills that overlap and cover the same action.



BOOK 1

For example, Book 1 gives us the AutoPistol skill. If a character has that skill, but fires a Revolver, he cannot use his skill to improve the roll.

This is understandable for a basic game rule.

Personally, I would allow characters to use similar skills at one level lower. So, if you have AutoPistol-3, then you can pick up a revolver and use it with a +2 modifier.

My thought on this is that the character's weapon of choice--that which he spends the most time using--is the skill. The overlap of the skill bleeds to similar skills.



BOOK 4

Then, when Book 4 comes along, we are introduced to the Pistol skill, which includes expertise with revolvers and autopistols.

So, a character with Pistol, spends a lot of time with both types of weapons--which is different from the Book 1 character, who only focuses on the one weapon.

If a character has Pistol-2, then, again, I would allow him to use a body pistol with a +1 modifier.



BOOK 5

Book 5 combines the skill even more and introduces the Handgun skill. Handgun covers expertise with an AutoPistol, a Revolver, Body Pistols, and Snub Pistols.



BOOK 1 ALTERNATES

I tend to only allow Basic Character Generation in my games (4-Year generation as per Book 1 rather than Advanced Generation as per Book 4 where every year is rolled for). But, I don't mind importing Pistol or Handgun skill as a choice for Navy, Marine, or Army careers.

When this happens, it will depend on the character's background, as it is developing through character generation. If it looks like we are creating a combat specialist, then I'd allow a Pistol or Handgun choice. If, say, the character is an officer, I tend to stick more to the Book 1 method where the character only gets the skill named for the weapon (as many officers don't see combat the way enlisted personnel do). This is only an example, though. A sergeant in charge of supply might get the AutoPistol skill where as a lieutenant leading a platoon into battle would have the Pistol skill available as a choice. It all depends on what the character is developing as.



DEFAULT SKILLS

Classic Traveller is a game where characters have few skills. Where most games rate the character on every skill used in the game, Classic Traveller is a game where only the skills where the character excels are shown on the character sheet.

I am pretty lenient on allowing a character to have a default skill (at Skill-0) if the skill makes sense for the character. I tend to follow the rules for default skills (appropriate ones are air/raft, ATV, forward observer, steward, vacc suit, and the weapons shown in Book 1), but I will add to that list if if makes sense for the character. This is done on a case by case basis, and I will apply the same thinking to NPCs.

Remember: Characters created with Supplement 4 do not get the Book 1 weapons as default skills. I tend to stick with that, as most S4 characters are civilians who don't use weapons often (where as Book 1 characters are Travellers, more apt to use a weapon more frequently).



OTHER SKILLS

I apply the same thinking to all skills in the game. If a skill is similar in use to another skill, then I usually apply the -1 skill level rule where the other skill is used at one level lower than the skill the character owns.

If the connection between skills is there but also a bit of a stretch, then I might allow a character to use the other skill as a default skill (at Skill-0).

For example, let's say the the ship's sensors must be used. Since there is no sensors skill in Book 1, but I know that sensors must be used on starships, I give that duty to the Navigator skill. A character with Navigator-2 will throw the sensor check with a full +2 modifier.

Most of the time, sensors either work or they don't. Like the motion detector shown in the film, Aliens. It doesn't take a lot of expertise to read that sucker. Any character should be able to do it without a check required. But, let's say a hand sensor operates differently, and the operator must have some expertise to interpret the results (old movies with SONAR operators in submarines come to mind). This would require a check. It make sense to me that the Forward Observer skill would cover this. I'd also allow the Recon skill from Book 4 to be used on this check.

If a character has the Tracked Vehicle skill, then I don't have a problem allowing the character to replace the ATV skill at the same skill level, or use the Wheeled Vehicle skill at one level lower.

The point is: I try to make Classic Traveller skills very versital, allowing them to overlap with other skills, when this makes sense. And, I do this mechanically by either using the same skill modifier, using the skill modifier at one level lower, or saying the use of the overlapped skill is a default skill.

This way, just a few skills on the Classic Traveller character sheet can make the character quite effective in a much larger number of areas.

 

[Timerover51]

While I understand this point of view, see that there are many skills that include many different specialties and are yet treated as a single one.

As someone has already said, Engineering includes many specialties, as does Medic (you shouldn't trust an urologyst to treat a brain illness, just to give you an example), just to give you some examples.



That's the key, the number of skills you want to hae into play. The broader they are, the shorter is the list, and so the lesser number of skills should a character have.

If you want more specific skills, as would be each weapon or each medical specialty being a separate skill, each skill level represents less knowledge, and so the characters should have more skill levels to compensate. That's neither good nor bad, just a diferent way to see the game.

In CT, your skill levels is limited to INT+EDU. So, Rambo, having good skill levels (let's say 3) in several weapons, plus survival and brawling, would need to be a genius with very high education (and I guess that's not how he's depicted) if each weapon counts separately, while he does not if they are in broader categories.

McPerth, the way I envision Medic Skill in Traveller is that of a General Practitioner (as referred to in the US) who has a general range of skills in the medical area, but is not specialized in any given area, except for Traveller Medics, I sort of assume expertise in trauma injuries caused by weapons.

Engineering I broke down earlier, but in Traveller, generally Engineering refers to ships drives, with maybe a subset on Computers, given the use of computers in controlling the ship drives. I would not allow a generic Engineer of Traveller to construct a building or try and do divil engineering work. There are some Traveller skills where they should be cascade, but to simplify the basic game, they are not, but are assumed by the Game Master.

 

[ddamant]

I totally missed the Handgun Skill in Book 5. Thanks for pointing that out. Funny how that skill allows use of Snub Pistols from Book 4 when that same book does not mention that weapon at all in the Skill List. The snub is certainly a shipboard weapon however and it makes sense that Navy Characters would focus on pistols and submachineguns over rifles.

Perhaps my answer lies in MegaTraveller. The basic character gen system has more skill options for characters and those without promotions are given double skills to compensate. The skills are more granular as well making being a Scientist actually worth something for example.

The only issue is the "Special Duty" for each career which allows another skill per term. Here we get skill bloat. However, I would balance that with requiring the character to make a second survival role if they choose to go on a Special Mission. If you want that extra skill you have to risk more that the average joe.

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[Supplement Four]

Perhaps my answer lies in MegaTraveller.

MegaTraveller is a damn good game! It is a good choice.

Still, my heart is with Classic Traveller. It's my favorite version of the rules. If it's not for you, then it's not for you. But, give it a good looksee before you discard it. The game is not always evident from a cursory inspection. I've been trying to highlight some things about the game that are under the hood, so to speak.

But, alas, go where your heart takes you. In the end, it's about having fun!

 

[ddamant]

MegaTraveller is a damn good game! It is a good choice.

Still, my heart is with Classic Traveller. It's my favorite version of the rules. If it's not for you, then it's not for you. But, give it a good looksee before you discard it. The game is not always evident from a cursory inspection. I've been trying to highlight some things about the game that are under the hood, so to speak.

But, alas, go where your heart takes you. In the end, it's about having fun!

You have pointed out some very good examples for sure. Actually I read most of what you comment on. I find your analysis insightful and quite helpful. CT will always be my goto RPG. The LBBs have been in my collection for decades and I have every digest book published. Everything for the game is in one small package (even my GM and Players binders are digest sized). Coming from AD&D I don't mind combat tables and all their wonkiness. My problem is I want it all. Everything. Even portions of T5 are appealing.

 

[McPerth]

McPerth, the way I envision Medic Skill in Traveller is that of a General Practitioner (as referred to in the US) who has a general range of skills in the medical area, but is not specialized in any given area, except for Traveller Medics, I sort of assume expertise in trauma injuries caused by weapons.

But then they also care for the low passengers, I asume they also vaccine passengers and crews as needed when going to other planets, care for any emergency (trauma or not) on any person in the ship, etc...

And, at lest in Spain, what I guess is the equivalent to Genral Practitioner only treats very light illness, refering any other patient to specialists.

OTOH, as I said Medical, I could also say survival, that applies to any kind of terrain, from Tatooine (desert) to Yarvin 4 (jungle) or Dagobah (swamp).

 

[rhialto]

The point is: I try to make Classic Traveller skills very versital, allowing them to overlap with other skills, when this makes sense. And, I do this mechanically by either using the same skill modifier, using the skill modifier at one level lower, or saying the use of the overlapped skill is a default skill.

This way, just a few skills on the Classic Traveller character sheet can make the character quite effective in a much larger number of areas.

Excellent summary S4. I need to crib this and include it in my house-rules doc for CT.

 

[Supplement Four]

Coming from AD&D I don't mind combat tables and all their wonkiness. My problem is I want it all. Everything. Even portions of T5 are appealing.

Yeah, T5 does have some interesting ideas. I just wished Marc had spent more time on it working out the bugs before releasing it. It's a monster ball of bugs.

As for CT combat tables, you don't really need them. I never use them. Simply put the modifiers on the equipment sheet.

For example, an AutoRifle will have these lines:

TL 6 AutoRifle
Damage:  3D
DEX:  7/-2; 10/+2
Range:  C -8, S 0, M +2, L +1, VL -2
Armor:  N +6, J +6, M +2, C -1, R +6, A +3, Co -3

You can add in weight, if you want, to keep track on the character. Plus specific weapon notes ("six notches rudely carved on butt")

Note that you can also shorten the range mods. Close Range is actually touching your foe. Grappling and wresting. You can drop that one and look it up the few times it is needed.

Most Brawling is done at Short range. Most gun combat is at Medium Range.

You don't have to put the Range if it is outside the weapon's Effective Range. For example, a Body Pistol's effective range is Short. And, so you really only need to list Close and Short Range modifiers. (Only Short if you are not listing Close Range...where someone sticks a gun in the back of the target.)

Doing this put all of the needed info at the player's fingertips. He just has to turn in his character folder to his equipment page for the weapon he is using. All the mods are there.

I like to use one piece of paper for each piece of equipment. This makes it easy to pass gear between party members. Each piece of gear becomes an item, with its own page. Make notes on the pages to customize the gear ("has a pearl and stainless steel grip"). Several pages gives the player a sense of how much gear his character truly is carrying.

And, you never use the tables in the book.

 

[Supplement Four]

A Note on Combat Range.



On the surface, it looks like a lot of Range choices for combat in CT. But, really...

Close - Used for grappling and wresting. Choking. If you walk up behind a guard and press your AutoPistol into his back, that's Close range.

Most often, the range you will use in the game is either Short or Medium. To a lesser extent, you'll use Long. You won't use Very Long range that often in the game.

Short - think of this as Brawling range. Melee. Cramped rooms aboard a ship (don't forget obstacles like chairs and tables, boxes and gear!). Refer to this as "Sword point range".

Medium - default to this most often when guns are involved. 50 meters is over half a football field! You'll rarely have combat at ranges longer than this. Refer to this as "Pistol range".



Long - not used that often. This range category starts at 51 meters. That's over 167 feet! And it goes to 250 meters, or over 820 feet (over two footballs fields!). Refer to this as "Rifle range".

Very Long - is hardly ever used. 251 - 500 meters. That over 820 feet to about a third of a mile! Refer to this as "Sniper range".



So, if you like to play while not using a combat grid (or even range bands), with just the Ref describing the action to the players, allowing them to see it in their mind's eye, consider any hand to hand or melee fight to be at Short range (sword tip).

If guns are involved, consider it to be Medium range (pistol range), even if using rifles.

Interior combat is usually at Short range, unless you're in some large enclosure like a hangar. Default to short range indoors, but use Medium range for hangars and such.

Outside is typically Medium range.

And, then you have the long range categories, which you will use infrequently: Long range (rifle range) and Very Long range (sniper range).

 

[rhialto]

Yeah, T5 does have some interesting ideas. I just wished Marc had spent more time on it working out the bugs before releasing it. It's a monster ball of bugs.

As for CT combat tables, you don't really need them. I never use them. Simply put the modifiers on the equipment sheet.

For example, an AutoRifle will have these lines:

TL 6 AutoRifle
Damage:  3D
DEX:  7/-2; 10/+2
Range:  C -8, S 0, M +2, L +1, VL -2
Armor:  N +6, J +6, M +2, C -1, R +6, A +3, Co -3

You can add in weight, if you want, to keep track on the character. Plus specific weapon notes ("six notches rudely carved on butt")

Note that you can also shorten the range mods. Close Range is actually touching your foe. Grappling and wresting. You can drop that one and look it up the few times it is needed.

Most Brawling is done at Short range. Most gun combat is at Medium Range.

You don't have to put the Range if it is outside the weapon's Effective Range. For example, a Body Pistol's effective range is Short. And, so you really only need to list Close and Short Range modifiers. (Only Short if you are not listing Close Range...where someone sticks a gun in the back of the target.)

Doing this put all of the needed info at the player's fingertips. He just has to turn in his character folder to his equipment page for the weapon he is using. All the mods are there.

I like to use one piece of paper for each piece of equipment. This makes it easy to pass gear between party members. Each piece of gear becomes an item, with its own page. Make notes on the pages to customize the gear ("has a pearl and stainless steel grip"). Several pages gives the player a sense of how much gear his character truly is carrying.

And, you never use the tables in the book.

creativehum has some nice weapon cards on his blog, which includes these data for all the CT weapons (both '77 and '81 versions).

 

[Timerover51]

But then they also care for the low passengers, I asume they also vaccine passengers and crews as needed when going to other planets, care for any emergency (trauma or not) on any person in the ship, etc...

And, at lest in Spain, what I guess is the equivalent to Genral Practitioner only treats very light illness, refering any other patient to specialists.

It looks like what the US calls a General Practitioner does a lot more than one in Spain. Also, US-flagged ships are required to have a fairly comprehensive medical book along with medications on board, whether or not they carry a doctor. I assume that would also be the case in My Traveller Universe, while any ship's Medic would have some special training in low-berth work.

OTOH, as I said Medical, I could also say survival, that applies to any kind of terrain, from Tatooine (desert) to Yarvin 4 (jungle) or Dagobah (swamp).

I figure that Survival covers a pretty wide range of skills, along with using as a basic book the US Army Field Manual on Survival from 1957. While intended for Earth, I can see it expanded to cover a wider range of planets, or customized for the area of space that you are operating in.

 

[flykiller]

As you see, it's also about locating places or obtaining information.

I really don't see streetwise and google-fu as overlapping.

This way, just a few skills on the Classic Traveller character sheet can make the character quite effective in a much larger number of areas.

you could always just give the character joat 4 ....

 

[Enoki]

you could always just give the character joat 4 ....

Ah yes! The CT "MacGyver" skill set... :rofl:

 

[Supplement Four]

I've always had a love/hate relationship with JOT. I like the idea, but I keep flip-flopping on how to use it in the game without making the skill too powerful or so weak that nobody wants it.

It should be a unique, interesting skill, but not one that is overpowered.

 

[aramis]

It looks like what the US calls a General Practitioner does a lot more than one in Spain. Also, US-flagged ships are required to have a fairly comprehensive medical book along with medications on board, whether or not they carry a doctor. I assume that would also be the case in My Traveller Universe, while any ship's Medic would have some special training in low-berth work.

That's changing even now, as many GP's are no longer seeing patients directly. Many GP's now are clinical supervisors more than clinicians themselves.

Likewise, many places, the GP's are FNP or ANP (Nurse Practitioners). Having moved to a rural area, my county-run rural health clinic has a FNP as GP, and my shrink is an RN MS ANP. I'm seen an LCSW therapist in the nearest city.