Commading Officers

[Garyius2003]

I am really up in the air. I am a product of the American Marines, who served on two ships, so my bias is towards their system.

That would mean that the lowest level ship would have a LT (O-3) as CO (and that was only a PC class).

However, the Fiery, Type T, and NA class are closer to the US Navy LCM-2000 and LCAC, also given that they are as small as the refueler off a High Lightning, that would make the craftmaster a Chief.

If I used US Army sized vessels, I would have this size ships commanded by CW-3 or 4s.

That biases me towards maybe Lt Jg as a CO, with a Ensign or Chief as Eng and Nav, and enlisted pilot, and a Chief as Gun O.

What level would you use for a commanding officer? What follows from that?

 

[far-trader]

You might have to look as much to the Air Force for clues. I'm pretty sure they and The Imperium both figure "all Pilots are Officers". It's understandable that being it's called the "Navy" and they "Pilot" "Ships" that you'd look first at the Navy way but we are talking a Space "Navy" in the Far Future

One place I have differed is in Imperial Marine Pilots not required being officers but limited to small craft operations off the Imperial Navy Ships.

 

[aramis]

For a Fiery or Gazelle, due to independent command, a LtCdr with whatever grades happen to be present between Ens and Lt when the repo pool is raided to staff her.

Type T's same.

And those refuellers aboard the AHL are an Ensign or LtJG command... since they are not independent, but are subordinate ships, being over 100Td.

The CO of the Type T has far more prestige than a LtCdr aboard the AHL, where he's a department officer (Admin, Support, medical, gunnery) or assistant department officer (Deck, Medical, Engr). Likewise, the 400Td fuel-shuttle's CO as a LtJG is more prestigious than a shift officer in Guns or the watch-officer in deck or engineering... more free time, his own command, and answers to the AHL Deck Department Head directly, and is likely to be groomed for an XO slot on a T, Gazelle, or Fiery.

A chief is likely to be the CEngr on a fuel shuttle...

 

[OIT]

Entirely up to you

Garyius,
I think it's entirely up to you how you want to structure IN CO ranks. However, if you're looking for some real world examples, please consider the following:

USN Cyclone class PB - 25 crew, 4 officers, CO O3
USN MILDETS - 20-25 crew, 1 officer, CO O2
USN Osprey class MHC - 45 crew, 4-5 officers, CO O4
USN Avenger class MCM - 80-90 crew, 7-8 officers, CO O4

USCG 110 class PB - 25 crew, 2 officers, CO O2

German Frauenlob (type 394) class - 20 crew, 2 officers, CO O2 (Oberleutnant)
German type 148 FPBs - 25-30 crew, 3 officers, CO O3
German type 332 MHC - 40-45 crew, 4 officers, CO O3
Danish STANFLEX PB - 25-40 crew (depending on modules), CO O3
Estonian Osa PB - 20 crew, 2 officers, CO O3
Polish lakes class MSC - 20-25 crew, 2-3 officers, CO O3
UK (various) class PBs - 20-30 crew, CO O3

Based on the above, I would propose:
Fleet Courier - O2 (first chance for an independent command)
CE, DE - O3
DD - O3/O4
Fleet Escort - O4
CL - O5

Hope this helps,
OIT

 

[Major B]

You might have to look as much to the Air Force for clues. I'm pretty sure they and The Imperium both figure "all Pilots are Officers". It's understandable that being it's called the "Navy" and they "Pilot" "Ships" that you'd look first at the Navy way but we are talking a Space "Navy" in the Far Future

One place I have differed is in Imperial Marine Pilots not required being officers but limited to small craft operations off the Imperial Navy Ships.

I've done something similar IMTU. Two ideas that just add some background flavor.

First for grav vehicles (since they behave more like aircraft) I've used two different models for organizational structure. For the Imperial Army, I've modeled the units roughly on current Army aviation (rotary wing) where the pilots are officers or (more often) warrants. Unarmored vehicles like air/rafts are operated by enlisted soldiers (normally junior ones). The Imperial Marines follow an armor unit model with one modification - rather than the juniormost member of the crew being driver it is someone with more experience (so with a crew of four it would be the #2 or #3 ranked crewmember).

For the IN, I've made officers pilots on all "combat" vessels and craft and slightly modified the term boatswain's mate back to its root meaning and made them the pilots of craft considered "noncombat" designs. So officers pilot the fighters and a bosun mans the landers, producing some rivalry over who determines what a "combat" craft is.

My rankings tend to run lower than some canon sources, so my breakdown of grades commanding vessels is pretty similar to the laydown in OIT's post.

 

[Easterner9504]

Crewing

Kinunir Crew

Despite being DE/DD sized it has capital ship rank structure. That means it makes good flotilla leader. One Kinunir and 2-3 Gazelle's. Further there are non-commissioned pilots called helmsman and several senior NCO's are boat or starship pilot qualified. So it is likely DL's have Captains, DD/DE Cmndr ot LtCmndr and under 1000t a Lt in command. Note in WW2 PT boats had Lt JG, LT or Lt. Cmndr as CO.

01 Commanding Officer Captain 8D48AC 34-04-10 B1 B16 B1
Admin-I, Pilot-I , Jack-o-T-2, Navig-I , Revolver-2
02 Executive Officer Commander 287898 38-05-10 84 823 84
Admin-4, Computer-2, Jack-o-T-1
03 Operations Officer Commander 385788 46-07-12 B4 B10 84
Gunnery-I, Fwd Obsvr-I, Engineering-I, Navig-I, Pilot-1, Admin-I, SMG-3
04 Chief Engineer Lt Cmdr 9A9875 30-03-07 C23 81 7 C23
Engineering-4, Revolver-I , Vacc-2
05 Second Engineer Lieutenant 579AB9 34-04-07 C26 820 C26
Engineer-2, Mechanical-1 . Electronic-1, Computer-1
06 Flight Officer Lieutenant 67AC98 30-03-06 C24 B1 5 C27
Ship's Boat-2, Pilot-2, Navigation-1, Gunner-1
07 Gunnery Officer Lieutenant 96599A 30-03-06 B1 821 B1
Gunner- I, Admin-2, Revolver-1
08 Commo Officer Ensign 626688 26-02-04 B1 812 B1
Electronics-3, Admin-1
09 Computer Officer Ensign 473AA9 22-01-03 B3 822 83
Computer-2, Electronic-1
10 Surgeon Lt Cmdr AA5687 42-06- 10 C10 Bl 1 C10
Medic-3, Mechanical-1, Electronic-2, Computer-1, Admin-1
11 Shore Liaison Lieutenant DA789A 26-02-05 D8 818 -
Fwd Obsvr-1, Laser Carbine-1 , Vacc-1

PETTY OFFICERS AND RATINGS
Much of the responsibility for everyday running of a battle cruiser falls on the
petty (non-commissioned) officers and able-bodied starmen who form the crew. A
standard ship requires 35 such crewmembers- 14 petty officers and 21 starmen.
Rank for naval crew is shown at three levels- CPO (Chief Petty Officer) for
individuals of the highest rank and responsibility, PO (Petty Officer) for
non-commissioned officers, and Starman for ordinary enlisted ratings.
It is also important to note that the marine contingent serves an important
manning function; marine troops provide onboard security and operate at least one
turret if not otherwise occupied.

Operations ,WO 988BA6 46-07-08
Blade-1, Ship's Boat-2, Vacc-2, Admin-1, Computer-I
Engineer CPO 532886 50-08-09
Engineer-2, Pilot-2, Ship's Boat-1 , Computer-1 , Admin-1
Engineer PO 476BAA 34-04-05
Engineer-1, Dagger-1, Admin-1
Nurse PO 351 9C8 38-05-06
Medic-2, Mechanical-1 , Dagger-1 , Admin-1 , Vacc-1
Screens PO 892896 42-06-07
Jack-o-T-2, Dagger-1 , Computer-1 , Engineer-1 , Pilot-1
Beams PO 598C69 30-03-04
Gunner-1 , Engineer-1 , Electronic-1 , Jack+-T-1
Laser Battery PO 154573 42-06-07
Gunner-2, Vacc-2, Mechanical-1 , Dagger-1 , Ship's Boat-1
Missile PO 567336 46-07-08
Electronic-2, Vacc-2, Gunner-1, Fwd Obsvr-1
Cook PO 626889 46-06-07
Jacks-T-3, Sword-1 , Medic-1, Computer-1
Boat Deck PO 746C76 38-05-06
Vacc-2, Engineer-1, Electronic-1, Ship's Boat-1
Computer PO A97A8A 34-04-05
Computer-4, Vacc-1
Helmsman PO 774367 38-05-06
Pilot-2, Ship's Boat-1 , Engineering-1 , Vacc-1
Magazine PO 87A898 34-04-05
Computer-1, Gunner-1, Vacc-1, Mechanical-1 ,
Machine Shop PO 447698 30-03-04
Mechanical-1 , Electronic-2, Vacc-1
Medic Starman 788C96 26-02-03
Medic-2, Admin-1
Missile Gunner .Starman 866AA8 26-02-03
Gunner-1, Ship's Boat-1, Fwd Obsvr-1
Missile Gunner Starman AB578B 22-01 -02
Gunner-1, Mechanical-1
Laser Gunner Starman 542C57 50-08-09
Engineer-1, Gunner-2, Dagger-1, Vacc-2, Shotgun-1
Laser Gunner Starman 797948 30-03-04
Gunner-3, Vacc-1 , Fwd Obsvr-1
Beam Gunner Starman 455947 26-02-03
Mechanical-2, Gunner-1
Beam Gunner Starman 8B4A7A 42-06-07
Gunner-3, Electronic-I, Engineering-1 , Vacc-1, Jack-o-T-1
Engineer ' Starman 978C67 34-04-05
Engineering-2, Blade-1, Admin-1
Engineer Starman 449C99 22-01 -02
Vacc-1, Computer-1
Engineer Starman 856973 34-04-05
Engineering-1 , Blade-2, Vacc-1
Engineer Starman 187877 50-08-09
Mechanical-1, Electronic-1, Vacc-1, Blade-1, Gunner-1, COI
Vehicle Deck Starman 865869 26-02-03
Vacc-1, Admin-1, Ship's Boat-1
Magazine .Starman 765987 30-03-04
Mechanical-1, Gunner-1, Electronic-1 , Rifle-1
Electronic Shop Starman 658A36 22-01 -02
Electronics-1, Mechanical-1 ' . .
Machine Shop Starman B77A67 26-02-03
Mechanical-2, Vacc-1
Administrative Clerk Starman 454AA8 30-03-04
Admin-1, Computer-1, Jack-o-T-1
BodyguardIValet Starman CCC996 26-02-03
Automatic Pistol-1, Submachinegun-1, Jack-o-T-1
Flight Starman 858997 22-01 -02
Gunner-1, Engineering-1 ' '
Administrative Clerk Starman B239A8 26-02-03
Computer-1 , Vacc-1 , Admin-1 , '
Cargo Clerk Starman 455847 22-01 -02
Admin-1, Dagger-1
Runner Starman 878899 26-02-03
Medical-1 , Carbine-1 , Vacc-1

 

[aramis]

The kinunir crew can't happen under a Bk5 CGen universe; a quick look at the tables shows that only flight branch and command officer have access to pilot skill. (Bk5, p8.) Flight branch is officer only. (Bk5, p3.)

Ship's Boat is only for craft of 5Td to 100Td. (TTB, p27.)

 

[rancke]

The kinunir crew can't happen under a Bk5 CGen universe; a quick look at the tables shows that only flight branch and command officer have access to pilot skill. (Bk5, p8.) Flight branch is officer only. (Bk5, p3.)

So the HG Char Gen is flawed, huh? Who would have thought it possible?

Not that I'd mind getting the crew of the Luuru decanonized. If a Kinunir really warrants a full captain as CO, the Imperial Navy[*] is suffering from an extreme officer bloat. Personally, I'd suggest the smallest ship that warranted a full captain was a light cruiser, and I wouldn't scream if light cruisers were made Commanders' commands, with full captains coming in somewhere up the heavy cruisers.


Hans

[*] Or whatever navy the Luuru belongs to -- for a long time I've been suggesting that it be retconned to belong to the Duchy of Regina Navy[**].

[**] Except that one would suppose that a duchy navy would tend to follow the customs of the IN, so that wouldn't really solve this particular problem.​

 

[far-trader]

So the HG Char Gen is flawed...

Or possibly* HG Char Gen is representative of Player Characters and not the general populace and it's the assumptions* of people populating all of Charted Space based on the Char Gen rules that is flawed and makes for such odd situations.

* though iirc Traveller Char Gen is supposed to be an "everyman" setup, as supported (sort of) by the various character collection supplements, though I could argue those are "special" non-player characters meant to be as much the exception as the player characters

Anyway, just an observation

 

[rancke]

Or possibly* HG Char Gen is representative of Player Characters and not the general populace and it's the assumptions* of people populating all of Charted Space based on the Char Gen rules that is flawed and makes for such odd situations.

Oh, you're just saying that because it's true.

* though iirc Traveller Char Gen is supposed to be an "everyman" setup, as supported (sort of) by the various character collection supplements, though I could argue those are "special" non-player characters meant to be as much the exception as the player characters

I don't think it's supposed to be an everyman setup, I think it became so because Traveller authors for 30 years have been cutting corners by generating NPCs by using CharGen instead of designing them. That's why you get Imperial nobles as enlisted men and customs officials (Not because Imperial barons think it's cool to be Marine privates, as GF suggests ).


Hans

 

[rancke]

And those refuellers aboard the AHL are an Ensign or LtJG command... since they are not independent, but are subordinate ships, being over 100Td.

A ship is a jump-capable vessel. A non-jump capable vessel is a boat. A boat of less than 100T is a small craft, 100T and up is a large craft. I'm not sure if there's another dividing line higher up (for distinguishing between large craft and monitors).


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Kinunir Captain

Huh, I agree with Ranke on Capt for CL and up.

I suspect the Kinunir was given a full captain though because it was designed to stand in the line of battle. It should have downgraded to Cmdr after 2 Suns showed that fallacy. if operating as flotilla leaders the Capt. is warranted. That was US doctrine; DD360 USS Phelps had Capt. A. R. Early aboard as DD commander of Comdesron 1.

 

[rancke]

I suspect the Kinunir was given a full captain though because it was designed to stand in the line of battle. It should have downgraded to Cmdr after 2 Suns showed that fallacy.

It would be nice if the information in The Kinunir could be made to fit with the TU as it has later evolved, but let's not forget that TK is very emphatically proto-Traveller. It may have originally (i.e. when the book was written) been intended to stand in the line of battle, but when High Guard came out, those intentions were IMO retroactively nullified (or at least should have been). It is inconceivable (to me, anyway) that even the greatest fool in the history of the Universe could ever have thought that a 1,200T ship could possibly stand any chance at all of doing any good when put opposite spinal gun equipped combat vessels.

...if operating as flotilla leaders the Capt. is warranted. That was US doctrine; DD360 USS Phelps had Capt. A. R. Early aboard as DD commander of Comdesron 1.

I read some very amusing memoirs of a WWII naval lieutenant who worked with Tank Landing Craft (To Sea in a Sieve by Peter Bull). They were commanded by lieutenants (O3s) and had lt. commanders (O4s) for for flotilla leaders, but the leaders were over and above the individual ship commanders ; they might sail aboard one of the craft or stay on shore at HQ.


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Line

Tommy Jefferson thought so and planned to scrap the entire US Navy and replace with coastal gunboats. John Adams then scaled back USN in hopes Jeff wouldn't touch it. He didn't but built the gun boats. They were crushed by full size RN ships.

 

[rancke]

Tommy Jefferson thought so and planned to scrap the entire US Navy and replace with coastal gunboats. John Adams then scaled back USN in hopes Jeff wouldn't touch it. He didn't but built the gun boats. They were crushed by full size RN ships.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.

Denmark turned to gun boats after the British stole its navy, basically because there weren't enough oak available to build real ships(A lot of new oaks were planted so that they would be available once they grew to a proper size, which would take 150 years). The gunboats scored a few successes, but mostly they proved ineffective. But AFAIK they were not commanded by post captains.


Hans

 

[WarriorKnight]

IMT Gazelles,Fiery & Type T's are commanded by at most a LtCmdr(an older & on his way out one or not very compentent one).I used the PT Boat example to explain the smaller ships to my players.The Chrysanthemum & Fer Da Lances DE's were usually Lt or LtCmdr's.I wouldn't give a Kinunir to anyone above LtCmdr,unless they were being punished by Fleet HQ.

 

[Major B]

... I wouldn't give a Kinunir to anyone above LtCmdr,unless they were being punished by Fleet HQ.

WK, I was thinking along similar lines when I redesigned the Kinunir for MTU. The crew breakdown is here if anyone wants to take a look.

I ended up with an O4 commanding officer with three O3's - one as executive officer, one for gunnery/operations, and the other as senior pilot. The oddest thing about working that crew breakdown was the enormous size of the BGG crew, which was the main reason the gunnery/ops officer was an O3.

Aramis' earlier post showing how CGen could not produce the Kinunir crew shown in the original is interesting to me. I wonder how well this crew breakdown would fare that kind of scrutiny.

One other note, whether it was sensible or not at the end, I chose O4 as the grade for the commander when I started deriving the crew grades and specialties rather than at the end. I though that an O6 commander was far too high and would have skewed the rank structure everywhere higher in the chain.

 

[aramis]

Major B: Basic CGen can... HG Advanced can't...

 

[Major B]

Major B: Basic CGen can... HG Advanced can't...

Thanks for clarifying. If I have the time this weekend I may do some die-rolling using the MT CGen to see what it provides. Might result in an update to the Kinunir crew plan.