Commercial starship lifeboat requirements

[PFVA63]

o:





Lest we spend another 10 or 12 pages fruitlessly giving you information that you're going to - umm - "not see", I'm going to suggest you do more research on the subject of infections and infection control. Rather than just learning about all the deadlies out there, maybe do a little research into exactly how they spread, how long they survive outside of a host, how long it takes for an infected host to begin showing symptoms, at what point an infected host becomes infectious, and perhaps most importantly how big or small they are. When you've done that and can find me a bacterium that can get through a nonporous material constructed to prevent the passage of oxygen and nitrogen molecules without leaving the construct leaking said oxygen and nitrogen molecules, we can explore the issue in more detail.

Hi,

Let's look at this from a different perspective.

From Canon we know that

• there are several different rulesets from which to choose
  
  there are a wide variety of type of ships in the Traveller universe other than just 'normal' commercial vessels
  
  there are a wide variety of trades other than just 'normal commercial operations'
  
  there is a wide range of tech levels in any given milieu
  
  there is a wide range of millieus to choose from in published Canon rules and adventures etc ranging (I believe) from 1st contact between the Terrans and Vilani up to a post Computer Virus era
  
  in several Canon sources there is direct reference to 'lifeboats'
  
  in several Canon sources there is also reference to other small craft either being used as, or which can be used as lifeboats
  
  there are numerous small scraft standard designs
  
  there are several rulesets that allow you to design other non-standard small craft
  
  there are some additional Canon objects that can also be used as makeshift lifepods and/or special duty lifepods (which include both the emergency re-entry modules and escaper bubbles that others have noted)

As such from all the above it appears that it is established Canon that lifeboats can and do exist, as such it kind of seems to me that shouldn't really be a matter of debate

Beyond this in Canon;

• it is also established that serious diseases can and were spread by interstellar travel and trade after contact was made between the Terrans and the Vilani
  
  it is also established that the Vilani (and other 1st Imperium species) had trouble dealing with and treating outbreaks of these diseases

As such it appears that as established Canon this shouldn't really be a matter of debate either.

And in addition from Canon it is strongly suggested in one of the first adventures published that the passengers and crew of a ship appear to have used one of their small craft as a lifeboat to escape an outbreak on their ship.

As such its hard to debate this as being a possibility either.

As such, from Canon the conclusions that seem logical to me are that;

• lifeboats exist in some form
  
  various craft can be used as lifeboats (or lifepods)
  
  rule systems appear to exist to allow you to create a specific craft if you don't like available options
  
  these lifeboats can be used for a wide variety of operations

To me the only real debate appears to be whether the existing craft that exist which can be used as lifeboats (or even lifepods) are suitable to all potential tasks and applications and/or can something else be developed and/or added to what is currently available.

Whether someone chooses to include such a craft or not on any vessel they design is a matter of their preference. Currently there do not appear to be any specific rules requiring their use, even though craft that can be used as lifboats are carried on many standard designs. Whether anyone thinks that additional rules may be warranted for requiring either lifeboats, lifepods or some other systems (including such things as safe rooms, redundant systems and the like) could also be debated as well.

As such, then everything I see points to both the fact that lifeboats do already exist and that diseases can and were transmitted via interstellar travel and trade. Based on Canon those would appear to me to be something that would likely be considered 'facts'.

 

[aramis]

You missed one bit of Canon, PFVA... disease spread is not a major threat in the main timeframe of the game. Unless you're playing in the Interstellar Wars era, or are rapidly progressing from sector to sector, almost everything is going to have been spread before.

Yes, there are a few... but they're rare enough as to be referee fiat only, and the ones encountered in the adventures are actually biological research gone awry.

Oh, and look at the response of the Regency to the AI Virus - send dumb-launches to pick up the crew, and destroy the ship. No "Check for Virus"... just "Prepare to debark", and if any non-compliance, don't even wait for the crew. Only specifically licensed expeditions get to cross back and forth. This is the remnant 3I of IY 1200.

I doubt that the Imperium is going to be any less ruthless about "plague ships." So an incapacitated crew will likely be given a parking orbit, some fuel, medicines, and food... and left to either die or get better. Any "resistance" to the quarantine orders, or to a back-travel history, and they're likely to just kill the ship.

Remember - the 3I isn't dominated by lawyers... it's results oriented.

 

[HG_B]

Hi,

Its my understanding that iron core meteorites can have a very high rate of thermal transfer and as such if they get hot on the outside they are also hot on the inside.

Those that do get hot enough inside harbor no life. Pretty simple.

 

[PFVA63]

You missed one bit of Canon, PFVA... disease spread is not a major threat in the main timeframe of the game. Unless you're playing in the Interstellar Wars era, or are rapidly progressing from sector to sector, almost everything is going to have been spread before.

Yes, there are a few... but they're rare enough as to be referee fiat only, and the ones encountered in the adventures are actually biological research gone awry.

Oh, and look at the response of the Regency to the AI Virus - send dumb-launches to pick up the crew, and destroy the ship. No "Check for Virus"... just "Prepare to debark", and if any non-compliance, don't even wait for the crew. Only specifically licensed expeditions get to cross back and forth. This is the remnant 3I of IY 1200.

I doubt that the Imperium is going to be any less ruthless about "plague ships." So an incapacitated crew will likely be given a parking orbit, some fuel, medicines, and food... and left to either die or get better. Any "resistance" to the quarantine orders, or to a back-travel history, and they're likely to just kill the ship.

Remember - the 3I isn't dominated by lawyers... it's results oriented.

Hi,

Since there are several periods of contraction, war and other such things, and new strains of diseases can mutate with for instance new strains of existing flues coming up on a yearly basis my thinking is that it may well still be an issue in many milieu.

I have no trouble with people discussing certain specific time periods as an example of how things might be done, but since Traveller in general really does cover a wide range of time periods with existing rulesets and adventures set in The Interstellar Wars Era, Milieu 0, the Classic (1100's) Era, the 5th Frontier War Era, The Solomani Rim War Era, the Rebellion Era, The Virus Era, and the Post Virus Era it seems to me that there could be a lot of potential for everything being less than ideal in a lot of these settings and as such I think a lot of care needs to be taken when discussing how things will likely be 'in Traveller' because not everyone plays in the same setting.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
As such from all the above it appears that it is established Canon that lifeboats can and do exist, as such it kind of seems to me that shouldn't really be a matter of debate ...

Canon is replete with conflicts. Canon rules, for example, offer little reason for a lifeboat on a merchant plying civilized routes. Canon also offers us an adventure in which a merchant plying civilized routes has lifeboats (with survival kits including rifles, no less). Where canon presents conflicts, it is the gamemaster's privilege to adopt those conventions that suit his game.

Me, I rather like the little lifepods, I've got no trouble equipping a subsidized liner's launch with survival kits and other emergency equipment, and my warships and exploratory ships would carry lifeboats and other rescue items. My standard-route merchants, not. But, that's me.

...Beyond this in Canon;

• it is also established that serious diseases can and were spread by interstellar travel and trade after contact was made between the Terrans and the Vilani
  
  it is also established that the Vilani (and other 1st Imperium species) had trouble dealing with and treating outbreaks of these diseases

As such it appears that as established Canon this shouldn't really be a matter of debate either.

And in addition from Canon it is strongly suggested in one of the first adventures published that the passengers and crew of a ship appear to have used one of their small craft as a lifeboat to escape an outbreak on their ship.

As such its hard to debate this as being a possibility either.

Only if you don't have an understanding of infection and infection control. The Masque of the Red Death scenario lies in wait otherwise, and:

Spoiler:

assuming that the departure-in-boat hypothesis is correct - it is likely that the passengers/crew in question either were the ones who had already successfuly resisted infection and didn't realize it, or they died in that boat.

Double Adventure 1A: "The disease from location 15 is transmitted via an airborne virus with a long dormancy period. No symptoms will become apparent for at least one week. At that point, each person who has been exposed must roll for infection on the disease table, once, at the highest possible level."

The position you're arguing is that the crew of a ship would use a lifeboat for an isolation room. However, between customs and the technology available, merchant ships running your typical trade routes - the ones you observe lack a sick bay - are unlikely in the extreme to encounter diseases beyond the control capabilities of their existing air plant and routine shipboard quarantine measures unless the game master specifically wants that to happen. You're asking for a bug that's going to remain dormant and unnoticed while in a starport yet after entering jump space is to race through the ship fast enough to prompt the crew to need to improvise before the ship emerges from jump and can summon help.

And, repeating yet again: crowding people into a small space will radically increase the odds of infection. Nothing in that scenario is as good as putting people in vac suits and rescue balls, because no conceivable organism is going to be able to cross a barrier strong enough to keep atmospheric molecules contained. "Ghost" germs capable of moving across such barriers are not science fiction - they're fantasy.

The ships most likely to run into some bizarre and unknown Andromeda-Strain superbug that might maybe challenge the air plant (and the availability of multi-thousand degree temperatures to purify atmosphere makes that extremely unlikely) are also those most likely to be equipped to deal with it and therefore least likely to have to improvise in such a manner: warships, exploration ships, and the like.

To be perfectly honest, it looks from here like you are just unwilling to let reality spoil a cool-sounding storyline.

 

[lspitz]

Probably most threats to public health in the Third Imperium (and its predecessors/successors) will be the descendants of terrestrial viruses and bacteria originating on Earth. They are dealt with easily enough using air filtration, UV sterilization, surface disinfectants, and, as a last resort, direct heating of recirculating air to temperatures in excess of 300 C (1000 C if you're into massive overkill). No Terran pathogen can survive all of these treatments, and direct incineration is the most reliable. Any non-Terran pathogen that can infect humans will necessarily have a similar biochemistry; it will be subject to the same physicochemical constraints and can be dealt with using the same precautions. In any case, even the toughest extraterrestrial bug won't stand up to being heated until its molecules break down.

A SARS-like virus might conceivably infect the whole crew before they realize what they're dealing with; the transmission mode is airborne, and the ship's air filtration plant doesn't do you one bit of good if you are standing in the same room as an infected person who is shedding the virus. If you recognize the threat early, you can isolate infected persons in a stateroom (or wherever) and don protective gear like respirator masks and gloves. Put the room under slight negative pressure so that clean air flows into the room; the contaminated exhaust air goes to the air treatment plant before being recirculated. If necessary, you jury-rig a pyrolysis unit to incinerate any organic materials in the outgoing air.

Cramming people into a small space like a lifeboat is a recipe for disease transmission, unless you are absolutely, 100% certain that none of the lifeboat occupants have been exposed yet. I wouldn't put it past desperate people to do this anyway (especially if they have no epidemiological training), but that's not going to alter the outcome if one or more of them is already infected.

 

[aramis]

To be perfectly honest, it looks from here like you are just unwilling to let reality spoil a cool-sounding storyline.

It's not even cool-sounding. Disease stories are as often as not sucky passive-aggressive ways for a GM to generate a TPK while giving the illusion of players being able to do something.

It's also worth noting that the ships are dumping loads of waste heat already - fusion is bloody hot. the extra cooling load after the sterilization isn't that big an issue.

 

[HG_B]

Disease stories are as often as not sucky passive-aggressive ways for a GM to generate a TPK while giving the illusion of players being able to do something.

That's been my experience. Also used as a railroad by less than competent GM's...

 

[lspitz]

It's not even cool-sounding. Disease stories are as often as not sucky passive-aggressive ways for a GM to generate a TPK while giving the illusion of players being able to do something.

I *might* run a scenario where the challenge for the PCs is to help quarantine an infected system/defend a system against plague-carrying ships coming in from someplace else, but I've never been even remotely tempted to start an adventure with "A day after entering jump, your engineer is hacking his lungs out. Looks like he picked up the Altairian plague at your last port of call".

 

[PFVA63]

Because you data is incomplete. Some MAY survive under the surface of some particles that reenter where they don't get exposed to very high temps. Extremely high temps (that air can be subjected to at TL 7) WILL kill ALL known bacteria & viruses.

There ya go. Problem SOLVED.

Hi,

Here is a link to a figure showing the amount of time that it takes to decrease the population of a certain type of bacterial spores by 90% at different temperatures for both wet and dry conditions. In order to decrease a population by 99% would take double the time shown, while the amount of time to reduce the population by 99.9% would take three times the amount of time shown.

There is a potential issue with the graph in that while the y-axis shows time in minutes on a log scale, the line drawn across showing 1hr may be in error since it appears that it may have been drawn at 6minutes (6 * 10^0) as opposed to 60 min (6 * 10^1 - if I am converting correctly).

Anyway, from this curve it appears that at 100 deg C (212 deg F) it would take about 20 to 30 min to decrease the population of the bacteria present by 90%, or thus 40 to 60 min to reduce it by 99% or 60 to 90min to reduce it to 99.9%.

For objects in the air, within air ducts and other such things, from the graph it appears that the air would have to be heated to 100 deg C (212 deg F) for about 2 x 10^4 min (or about 13.9 days to reduce the population by 90%, 27.8 days to reduce the population by 99% or 41.7 days to reduce it by 99.9%.

If the air temperature were raised to about 155 deg C (311 deg F) the amount of time to reduce the population by 90% it appears that it would take about 10 min, and thus for 99% it would take about 20 min, or 30 min to reduce the population by 99.9%.

In addition, for normally manned spaces I believe that providing air flow suitable to completely change out the air in a space by 20 to 30 times in typical.

This heat added to the air and water would also then need to be 'eliminated/removed' in some way before it could then be of use for the personnel onboard.

As such, its really hard for me to see how using heat to try and eliminate or control a dangerous bacterial outbreak onboard a ship could be used to solve the problem.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw...mage to zoom&p=PMC3&id=99004_mr0300022001.jpg

 

[HG_B]

Hi,
This heat added to the air and water would also then need to be 'eliminated/removed' in some way before it could then be of use for the personnel onboard.

As such, its really hard for me to see how using heat to try and eliminate or control a dangerous bacterial outbreak onboard a ship could be used to solve the problem.

You heat it to ~800 F using the PP and cool it the same way you get rid of PP heat.

DONE

 

[atpollard]

You heat it to ~800 F using the PP and cool it the same way you get rid of PP heat.

DONE

Elfin Magic.
(sorry, I couldn't resist.)

 

[HG_B]

Elfin Magic.
(sorry, I couldn't resist.)

:rofl:

 

[PFVA63]

...Cramming people into a small space like a lifeboat is a recipe for disease transmission, unless you are absolutely, 100% certain that none of the lifeboat occupants have been exposed yet. I wouldn't put it past desperate people to do this anyway (especially if they have no epidemiological training), but that's not going to alter the outcome if one or more of them is already infected.

Hi,

The alternative though would appear to be to leave everyone in the same confined space of the main ship with people already know to be sick and in a contagious state. Overall, as I've stated previously, a starship is a small enclosed 'island' in a vast sea of near nothingness.

I'm not suggesting that it is the best or only treatment for any outbreak of any type but rather, I believe that I have noted in previous posts, if you are on a ship and someone has come down with an infectious disease that may have (or even may be threatening to) spread into the main ship's life support systems then I can see that trading being in an already small confined space with people known to be sick for being in a more confined space with those that have not yet shown symptoms of being sick may be a good trade-off. Even if it only delays the possibility of you contracting the disease a bit, it can help limit the number of patients that need to be treated at one time and also give you and the rest of the passengers and crew more time to eventually get help once you get at or near your destination.

 

[rancke]

The alternative though would appear to be to leave everyone in the same confined space of the main ship with people already know to be sick and in a contagious state. Overall, as I've stated previously, a starship is a small enclosed 'island' in a vast sea of near nothingness.

The simplest solution is to make sure people don't get aboard the ship if they're carrying any disease.


Hans

 

[PFVA63]

Canon is replete with conflicts....

Hi,

I agree. However in every version of the rules that I am familiar with there is an allowance for starships to carry small craft and there appears not only to be no prohibition to them being used as lifeboats but rather several references to them being so employed as needed.

...Canon rules, for example, offer little reason for a lifeboat on a merchant plying civilized routes. Canon also offers us an adventure in which a merchant plying civilized routes has lifeboats (with survival kits including rifles, no less). Where canon presents conflicts, it is the gamemaster's privilege to adopt those conventions that suit his game.

Me, I rather like the little lifepods, I've got no trouble equipping a subsidized liner's launch with survival kits and other emergency equipment, and my warships and exploratory ships would carry lifeboats and other rescue items. My standard-route merchants, not. But, that's me...

I have no problems with any of that. As I've tried to make clear before I believe that different ships on different operations and in different settings will likely have different requirements. but along the same lines, just because something seems to provide for a certain capability to some ships in some settings in some settings does not mean that there is no need for anything else on other types of ships in other settings and/or other types of operations.

...The position you're arguing is that the crew of a ship would use a lifeboat for an isolation room. However, between customs and the technology available, merchant ships running your typical trade routes - the ones you observe lack a sick bay - are unlikely in the extreme to encounter diseases beyond the control capabilities of their existing air plant and routine shipboard quarantine measures unless the game master specifically wants that to happen. You're asking for a bug that's going to remain dormant and unnoticed while in a starport yet after entering jump space is to race through the ship fast enough to prompt the crew to need to improvise before the ship emerges from jump and can summon help.

And, repeating yet again: crowding people into a small space will radically increase the odds of infection....

Hi,

My position is actually that if needed the crew and passengers on a ship could use a lifeboat for an isolation room, if there is a fear that such a step is needed to separate the already sick from those not yet showing signs of being sick. This would not likely be necessary for many illnesses, especially if treatment is readily available. The thought is/was that if there is either the fear that whatever is responsible for the disease and/or its spread may have leaked into the air and/or water systems (for example) then using the lifeboat/small craft as a separate safe 'haven' may well make sense.

Another potential situation may also be if the disease is showing resistance to standard treatments (such as a new strain of an existing disease like some of the penicillin resistant strains of some current illnesses on Earth) or if the disease is known to be highly infectious and/or virulent.

In such cases, since a starship is already a very small confined space anyway, sharing the same life support systems between the people that are already sick and those that are not may not likely be the best course of action, while separating those that do not appear to yet be sick into a separate, albeit even smaller space may well make sense.

...Nothing in that scenario is as good as putting people in vac suits and rescue balls, because no conceivable organism is going to be able to cross a barrier strong enough to keep atmospheric molecules contained. "Ghost" germs capable of moving across such barriers are not science fiction - they're fantasy....

Hi, here I believe that you are incorrect. Vacc suits are by their nature appear as if they can never be 100% effective. Because of the fact that they have to have a means of getting in and out, as well as means for taking in food etc, they will have seals that will likely never be perfect. All joints, openings and seals will likely be subject to leakage and its highly the materials of vacc suits themselves would likely not be 100% perfect barriers either (at least as far as can currently be determined based on modern world experience, as I understand it).

...The ships most likely to run into some bizarre and unknown Andromeda-Strain superbug that might maybe challenge the air plant (and the availability of multi-thousand degree temperatures to purify atmosphere makes that extremely unlikely) are also those most likely to be equipped to deal with it and therefore least likely to have to improvise in such a manner: warships, exploration ships, and the like....

I mentioned Ebola and the like as possible examples of what may be encountered. However, I believe that I have also made mention of other scenarios where the illness in question may rather just be new strains of existing diseases (as new strains of the influenza for example seem to pop up regularly on Earth right now).

As such, an illness outbreak on a ship does not have to be some form of 'super-illness' to be an issues to the passengers and crew. If something like a new strain of flue breaks out onboard a ship and it appears to be resistant to the treatments available onboard the ship (such as a few years ago several strains of flue appeared to resistant to the use of 'Tamiflu' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir ) then for the passengers and crew of this ship who may be either near the start or in the middle of their jump, they may be facing a week or so in a confined space sharing the same life support systems with someone who is currently ill and potentially very contagious.

In such a situation, while the outbreak could well potentially be a life-or-death situation for the people on the ship in transit, it may well be that once they make it to an inhabited system better treatment options can greatly improve their situation.

As such, although I noted Ebola and the like as possible examples of things that can be encountered lesser illnesses can also be a big issue while onboard ship, and its not just an issue of potentially encountering some sort of 'super disease'.

...To be perfectly honest, it looks from here like you are just unwilling to let reality spoil a cool-sounding storyline.

Hi,

Not at all. Most of my point of view (I believe) has been centered around trying to show situations present in various Traveller rulebooks, settings, and adventures etc where either lifeboats/lifepods (or ships that could be used as such) have been present or similar situations where they could also be used.

Since the Annic Nova Adventure strongly hinted that a ship's boat may have been used as an lifeboat to abandon ship and since GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars makes reference to the spread of diseases through interstellar travel and trade, this seemed like a natural situation to discuss.

Other similar discussions could and probably should be made with respect to combat damage (as illustrated by the game MayDay, where having some sort of craft onboard a=was about the only backup you had in the event of lose of your ship etc), and/or just those situations where something has gone down onboard and rather than drifting on your existing vector an onboard craft can give the opportunity to try and make it to a habitable safe haven and replenish supplies etc.

 

[PFVA63]

The simplest solution is to make sure people don't get aboard the ship if they're carrying any disease.


Hans

Hi,

That I definitely agree with. Though, since many Traveller settings take place either during major wars, or in their aftermath, that may not always be possible as war and pestilence seem to often go hand in hand.

Along a similar note, there was recently a post about the old computer game Traveller Adventure, which (if I am recalling correctly) dealt with a man-made disaster on a planet that the adventurers were trying to combat. In any large man made or natural disaster where there may likely be a lot of devastation and large numbers of refugees etc, I could easily see the risk of disease being a big issue to.

 

[PFVA63]

You heat it to ~800 F using the PP and cool it the same way you get rid of PP heat.

DONE

Hi,

Even assuming a magic heat sink, there is still an issue with the time it would take to cool the air from 800 deg F to a more suitable temperature while still ensuring the ability to provide 20 to 30 air changes per hour (or in other terms, replacing all the air in each compartment every two to three minutes) while your air is cooling down from 800 deg F.

 

[atpollard]

Hi,

Even assuming a magic heat sink, there is still an issue with the time it would take to cool the air from 800 deg F to a more suitable temperature while still ensuring the ability to provide 20 to 30 air changes per hour (or in other terms, replacing all the air in each compartment every two to three minutes) while your air is cooling down from 800 deg F.

20 to 30 air changes per hour seems excessive, where is that figure from?
ASHRAE recommends 0.35 air changes per hour (or about 1 air change in 3 hours) for living spaces or an ICU (and double that for an operating room).

Beyond that quibble, the ship has tons of cryogenic liquid to cool the air.

 

[HG_B]

20 to 30 air changes per hour seems excessive, where is that figure from?

Desperately grasping...