Commercial starship lifeboat requirements

[PFVA63]

As pointed, lets not copy current maritime rules, lets look at the setting.

Very fine, however, the issue raised have all been raised on the way to the current rules and we may find answers (approx) to the question: how the public and industry will react?

...

have fun

Selandia

Hi,

I agree with a lot of what you posted. Just today at work, in a meeting the topic of "dead ship power restoration" requirements for ocean going ships came up and a couple ex-ship officers made the comment on just how frequently modern ships can loose all electrical power.

For me, when I stop to think about just how many transportation related incidents we have on Earth right now, and then try to extrapolate to a setting where there are 11,000 star systems the potential for life threatening accidents seems high.

As others have noted, a lifeboat or life pod type device may not be the best solution in all instances but I suspect that it may potentially be in several potential situations, and whatever type set up is incorporated into a design (be it the use of a life boat, safe room, or allowance for extra fire suppressant gases and air replenishment etc) there will likely be some for of cost to be considered.

When specifically considering a Taveller type setting it appears that (at least in some rule sets and milieu etc) sometimes not all vessels can be assumed to be always at the highest level of maintenance, tech level, or state of repair due to passible damage for battle or perhaps even natural causes. Plus, as I understand it, Traveller canon even posits the possibility of Terrorism (ie, the Ine Givar), piracy, the smuggling of grey market (and potentially unstable cargos) and other types crime. As such, it would seem to me that the potential for something going wrong would exist in such a setting.

Additionally, to me it would seem like there could be numerous potential situations where you might need to either vacate a ship (or at least evacuate to a "safe room"). These could include loss of atmosphere due to damage, loss of life support (especially stuff like air scrubbers etc) due to potential damage etc, loss of all ships power due to power plant damage, loss of fuel to drive the power plant (due to damage or possibly contamination), etc.

As such, to me the possibility for lifeboats or life pods kind of seems to make sense to me.

 

[HG_B]

For me, when I stop to think about just how many transportation related incidents we have on Earth right now, and then try to extrapolate to a setting where there are 11,000 star systems the potential for life threatening accidents seems high.

At first that would seem to be the case. However, on Earth we have ~100 years of "modern" (actual modern of only a few decades) ship building & operational experience as opposed to thousands of years as in the 3I.

So, you can toss that comparison out as it isn't comparable at all.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

I disagree. Sailing ships existed in similar form for hundreds of years yet numerous issues still existed. In addition in a Traveller setting the tech level of various planets extend over a wide range. For some of these planets, and citizens from those planets, their experience with operating and supporting high tech equipment may not reflect anything near thousands of years experience.

When I think of how the Traveller setting is structured with the wide range of tech levels represented, in some ways I'm a bit reminded of a scene out of the movie "The Sand Pebbles" set around the crew of a US river gunboat in China in the 1920s. Onboard that ship the naval crew were skilled in their duties but many of the local labor that they also employed onboard only had the skill to do a specific job and look out for specific things without necessarily any real specific understanding of the specifics behind what they were doing. This is perhaps even a little similar to many modern car drivers - including me - who may understand some basics of driving and maintaining their car, but who lack a lot of the more indepth knowledge of how certain components work, etc.

Add to this the fact that the history of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Imperiums in Traveller has not been that of one long, continuous period of economic and technological stability, but rather one where massive upheavals and contractions have occurred, as well as periods of intense and extended warfare where entire systems have seen extensive periods of warfare and in some cases have exchanged hands between various factions, it kind of seems to me that the possibility for accidents and mishaps among space fairing ships in a Traveller type setting would likely be reasonably high (or at least no different than the possibility of transportation related accidents here on present day Earth).

 

[HG_B]

Hi,

I disagree. Sailing ships existed in similar form for hundreds of years yet numerous issues still existed.

We're not talking PRE modern manufacturing methodology. (with ALL that entails) AND we are talking THOUSANDS of years.

NOT the same animal by any stretch of the imagination.

Also a better paradigm is commercial aircraft. A boat on the water can have total systems failure and float along. An aircraft no, a ship mid jump NO.

 

[atpollard]

As long as there are people involved, they will be the weakest link.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
So there will be no more bulkhead, airlock, fire fighting material or life saving appliances (or anything that cost money) than necessary to reduce capital investment or operating cost, for that is a business afterall. Exeption will be: Official Rules and Regulation that apply to all and maintain a level field; Contractual requirement (will a Starfarers' Union exist?) or Insurance requirement. Marketing gimick may also be a source of lifeboat requirement.
...

Missed one: longstanding custom. At the point where we're playing, the Imperium and their forebears have had a spaceborne economy for millenia. There will be things that they do because ten thousand years in space has taught them that it's the thing to do. They'll have customs as old as the pharoahs about having sprinkler systems in the halls or a halon system in the kitchen or ships with more than one pressure-tight compartment. They'll have stories of ancient incidents and allegorical tales older than Aesop's fables about what happens when the foolish ship captain cut this or that corner, so that having a ship without an X would seem as silly as having a car without brakes.

 

[aramis]

6000 years of spaceflight pre-Millieux 1100 isn't "older than the pharos" - it's actually during the roman era. And that's how long the Vilani were in space.

Still, that is long enough for some serious tradition - but Vilani Tradition is insanely strong.

Much of Vilani spacing tradition probably descends from their planetary military tradition, and that probably from primitive sources. Odds are, if they are as hidebound as presented in canon, their ranks all still translate to "spearman", "swordsman", "leader of", and various unit sizes, unchanged since the first cavalry on Vland.

 

[mike wightman]

4717 BC - Vilani discover jump drive, and they have been using STL to colonise nearby systems for over 150 years.

That's long before the Pharaohs ;-)

I like the safe area compartment idea - something to think about when drawing deck plans (and harkens back to the good old days of main compartment/engineering compartment).

For exploratory scouts/traders you could be a long way from home. You need some way of getting a message back and long term survival refuge.

 

[whulorigan]

Additionally, to me it would seem like there could be numerous potential situations where you might need to either vacate a ship (or at least evacuate to a "safe room"). These could include loss of atmosphere due to damage, loss of life support (especially stuff like air scrubbers etc) due to potential damage etc, loss of all ships power due to power plant damage, loss of fuel to drive the power plant (due to damage or possibly contamination), etc.

As such, to me the possibility for lifeboats or life pods kind of seems to make sense to me.

I like the safe area compartment idea - something to think about when drawing deck plans (and harkens back to the good old days of main compartment/engineering compartment).

For exploratory scouts/traders you could be a long way from home. You need some way of getting a message back and long term survival refuge.

Why not combine the two ideas. Consider the Life Pod to be an "ejectable" Safe Area Compartment.

Normal Procedure: Go to the Life Pod and remain on board the ship. Thus you can utilize ships stores and Life Support if they are still available, and not deplete the Life Pod's onboard resources. If necessary, abandon ship in the Life Pod.

 

[Carlobrand]

... They'll have customs as old as the pharoahs ...

6000 years of spaceflight pre-Millieux 1100 isn't "older than the pharos" - it's actually during the roman era. And that's how long the Vilani were in space...

Uh, okay. I will try to make my colorful interjections more precise next time.

Lessee:
Vilani had jump drive as of -9235 Imperial, so a little over 10 thousand years in interstellar space as of 1107 Imperial. Roman Republic era dates to the 500s BC, I think, and Rome founded a couple or three centuries before that? Egypt's kings date to 3100 BC, over 5000 years ago? Still short.

Okay, but it's hard to find something 10,000 years old that everyone knows about.

 

[Selandia]

Why not combine the two ideas. Consider the Life Pod to be an "ejectable" Safe Area Compartment.

Normal Procedure: Go to the Life Pod and remain on board the ship. Thus you can utilize ships stores and Life Support if they are still available, and not deplete the Life Pod's onboard resources. If necessary, abandon ship in the Life Pod.

Actually, that is the way I do it in GT where modular construction is handy (I like their LASH system). The passenger compartment is a sub hull in nearly all of my design.

@carlobrand: Long standing custom I should have thought of it. If LBB2 and HG are the produce of it, mandatory lifesaving appliances do not seem to be much of an explicit tradition.

have fun

Selandia

 

[PFVA63]

We're not talking PRE modern manufacturing methodology. (with ALL that entails) AND we are talking THOUSANDS of years.

NOT the same animal by any stretch of the imagination.

Also a better paradigm is commercial aircraft. A boat on the water can have total systems failure and float along. An aircraft no, a ship mid jump NO.

Hi,

Unless I'm mis-remembering here the possibility of misjump in Traveller canon is rather on the high side suggesting that even with extensive experience accidents can and do happen. Similarly taking low berths as an example, they appear to exist throughout all the milieu that I am familiar with (as best as I can recall) and they also can be unreliable despite thousands of years of familiarity and use. As such to me I don't really see any reason to assume that other aspects of space vessel design and use is really any different, with the potential for failure and accidents (left alone the potential for failures induced by combat damage etc) also existing.

Add to this that the thousands of years of experience is not necessarily a 'non-interrupted" span in many parts of the known space and the fact that the known space consists of a wide range of Tech Levels (where even at their heights the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Imperiums consisted of a range of worlds and citizenry from many lower (as well as higher) tech levels) and it would seem to me that the chance for failures (routine and catastrophic) would always exist for space craft.

 

[PFVA63]

Why not combine the two ideas. Consider the Life Pod to be an "ejectable" Safe Area Compartment.

Normal Procedure: Go to the Life Pod and remain on board the ship. Thus you can utilize ships stores and Life Support if they are still available, and not deplete the Life Pod's onboard resources. If necessary, abandon ship in the Life Pod.

Hi,

For some/many ships I wouldn't at all be surprised if that wouldn't be that best solution.

 

[Patron Zero]

Sounds like the simplest, most efficient and economical measure to take.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

To me, as noted previously the actual extents of life saving facility aboard a ship will likely be dependent a lot on the type of ship and how it operates.

For instance, if you have a non-streamlined ship in addition to all other considerations, a concern for it might be what happens if it experiences an issue that may cause it to loose altitude and de-orbit. In such a case the ability to evacuate the ship and either safely land or propel the lifeboat/rescue pod out of danger may well be warranted, but the structure may only need be strong enough to ensure a safe one time atmospheric entry usage.

For a streamlined ship which regularly operates in an atmosphere the requirements might be a bit different though, as the parent ship will have a different operating envelope than the non-streamlined ship, such as the potential need to eject the lifeboat/lifepod in the lower atmosphere where atmospheric and environmental issues may have more of an impact and he lifeboat/lifepod's shape and construction, etc.

In addition to this if the streamlined ship is meant to be capable of skimming fuel from gas giants then "landing" may not always be an option and a stronger drive and structure may be required.

Just some thoughts.

PF

 

[Carlobrand]

Tossing this into the mix:

The Marooned/Marooned Alone double adventure makes mention of a lifeboat: a (very badly maintained) 23-seat boat (inferred from the mention of the need for 23 survival kits, one for each passenger - of which unfortunately only 4 are present) aboard a nonspecific "interstellar passenger liner" of unknown size (but large enough to have at least a second lifeboat and possibly a third or more, based on the reference to "a number of lifeboats" and the later reference to "the accidental launch of several lifeboats"). Nothing is known about the boat other than it seats 23; the Supplement-7 Lifeboat is a 20 dT 24-seater (6 4-person ELB's) plus two seats for crew, comes about as close to the 23 mark as anything.

 

[pennshome723]

Tossing this into the mix:

The Marooned/Marooned Alone double adventure makes mention of a lifeboat: a (very badly maintained) 23-seat boat (inferred from the mention of the need for 23 survival kits, one for each passenger - of which unfortunately only 4 are present) aboard a nonspecific "interstellar passenger liner" of unknown size (but large enough to have at least a second lifeboat and possibly a third or more, based on the reference to "a number of lifeboats" and the later reference to "the accidental launch of several lifeboats"). Nothing is known about the boat other than it seats 23; the Supplement-7 Lifeboat is a 20 dT 24-seater (6 4-person ELB's) plus two seats for crew, comes about as close to the 23 mark as anything.

Tell me that is not classic...must be a Carnival Cruise line merchant liner...:rofl:

 

[aramis]

Tell me that is not classic...must be a Carnival Cruise line merchant liner...:rofl:

Oh, yes, it is. But classic also says the Vilani broke out in IY -6000 or so (S8 LD A-M)

 

[mike wightman]

The jump drive was discovered on Vland in IY -9235 (page 27)

They discovered minor human races and alien species and traded with them for nearly 4000 years.

Vland consolidation of trading sphere IY -5273 (page 27)

First Imperium official dating begins IY -4045 (page 27)

 

[Carlobrand]

The ten ton hull in High Guard can be fitted with a 1 dTon power plant, 1 dTon drive, 1 dTon fuel tank and either bridge or a Model/1 and pilot's couch. Cost is pretty much the same at any TL because plants and drives are priced by tonnage; performance improves, but performance isn't really a top priority in lifeboats.

10 dTon Lifeboat
MCr0.8 Flattened Sphere hull (keeping it cheap but streamlined)
MCr3 1 dT PPl 2 (TL7), 3 (TL9), 5 (TL13), 10 (TL15)
...power output: TL7=0.2EP, TL9=0.3EP, TL13=0.5EP, TL15=1EP
MCr 0.7 1 dT Maneuver 2 (TL7)
or MCr 0.5 1 dT Maneuver 3 (TL9+)
MCr 0.1 4 dT Bridge
or MCr 2.025 1 dT Computer 1 +0.5 dT couch
1dT fuel tank
Tonnage remaining: with bridge, 3 dT; with computer, 5.5 dT
MCr 0.3 Emergency Low Berths for 12 passengers
or MCr 0.5 Emergency Low Berths for 20 passengers, plus 0.5 dT reserve fuel

Results:
TL7 MCr4.9 (3.92 in quantity) 10dT Bridged Lifeboat, 12 passengers, 2G performance with 5 month duration at 2G, 10 months at 1 G.
TL7 MCr7.025 (5.62 in quantity) 10dT Comp Lifeboat, 20 passengers, 2G performance with 7.5 month duration at 2G, 15 months at 1 G.
TL9 MCr4.7 (3.76 in quantity) 10dT Bridged Lifeboat, 12 passengers, 3G performance with 3.3 month duration at 3G, 10 months at 1 G.
TL9 MCr6.825 (5.46 in quantity) 10dT Comp Lifeboat, 20 passengers, 3G performance with 5 month duration at 3G, 15 months at 1 G.

Note that the more expensive computer-controlled model is cheaper per passenger, also longer duration. However, the smaller, less expensive model is adequate if you've only got 8 passengers to worry about. Larger craft are far more efficient, of course, but these are adequate for a ship with a limited number of people to evacuate.

At the other end of the spectrum:
95 dTon Lifeboat
MCr7.6 Flattened Sphere hull (keeping it cheap but streamlined)
MCr3 1 dT PPl 1 (TL15)
MCr 2.85 1.9 dT Maneuver 1
MCr 0.475 19 dT Bridge
or MCr 2.025 1 dT Computer 1 +0.5 dT couch
1dT fuel tank
Tonnage remaining: with bridge, 72.1 dT; with computer, 89.6 dT
MCr 7.2 Emergency Low Berths for 288 passengers, plus 0.1 dT reserve fuel
or MCr 8.9 Emergency Low Berths for 356 passengers, plus 0.6 dT reserve fuel

Results:
TL15 MCr21.125 (16.9 in quantity) 95dT Bridged Lifeboat, 288 passengers, 1G performance with a bit over 1 month duration; you can increase that by cutting passenger load, but it should be adequate for the kind of places likely to see this level of passenger load.
TL15 MCr24.375 (19.5 in quantity) 95dT Comp Lifeboat, 356 passengers, 1G performance with 1.68 month duration; same comment.

The benefit for the computer is marginal here but still present: the cheaper ship costs 86% as much as the more expensive, but carries 81% as many passengers.