Computers and Starships

[snrdg082102]

Hello again FU,

Originally posted by Fu:
How much will cost the avionics, sensor and commo modules ? Twice the rated model ?

My view is to use the SSDS steps for adding the 3 sub-systems, unless of course each sun-system is designed using the CDS.

Again it does not make a lot of sense as an M/7 is worse than an E/2, while being WAY more expensive...

We could have said, OK the difference is on the TL, but then again an E/1 is available at TL5...

and the E/3 at TL9. Why would anyone save 100kcr on the computer when it is so much more useful to spend those 500kcr that get you a better model while you are already spending 50 Mcr ???

And another one, if you have a big ship which can afford 10 tons of computers, why would you have to run an E/7 while a M/2, which is better cannot be used due to the size of the ship requiring a bigger "model".

Heeeelp, what is broken there ? Me or the design system ?

Francois

Here is my take on the situation. Note: This is my take and is probably way out in left field.

Short version:
1. You are not broken and
2. the design sequence is not broken, however some patching is required.

Long version:
The CDS does need some work, but can be used to design a Ship's Computer and hopefully my other posts in this thread has helped you and others a little bit.

Hunter has mentioned in past posts the Chapter 12's Spacecraft and Starship Design Sequence (SSDS) is based on CT Book 5: High Guards Starship Construction Rules and was the first one developed. My feeling is that both the Vehicle Design Sequence (VDS) and the Computer Design Sequence (CDS) used the SSDS framework modified to fit the purpose. One of the modifications to HG's construction rules was how to explain why the computers were so large compared to Real World ones. Hunter or the person that wrote the Ship's Computer portion of the SSDS, in my opinion, did a very good job of answering the question. My guess is that the CDS was one of the sections that may have be written or at least not received on time close to the original release date. Coupled with other small glitches the CDS may have only had a quick check that appeared to match the specifications for the SSDS/HG Ship's Computer. So the highly over worked authors/editors missed minor glicthes. When the first printing, under a lot of pressure from customers, many of the minor glitches in the various section were found by the people who bought the THB.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again Fu,

I am going to try and do a single post to answer the rest of questions and comments you have typed on this thread. Please remember, as far-trader's post reminded me, that these are my interpretations of the CDS, SSDS Ship's Computers, and Stand Designs Computer sections. As such they could be very far off the mark, so taking them with a grain or two of salt is advisable.

Nov. 26, 2003 04:06

On top of that the table should be errata'd

If you install a Jump-1 program on a M/1 computer, the Max PP remaining after installation of the Jump-1 software is :

28-23 = 5

So it should be rated 5/11 not 28/11.

Which is kind of crap as 5 is not even enough to install the 11 software to be able to run it afterward

Doh !

Nov. 26, 2003 04:08

Even worse...

If you want to be able to target anything, you also need to install a weapon system software.

Which uses 1 PP.

If you want live gunners to operate weapons, you also need one of those per gunner.

Again 1 PP apiece.

Yes, a Jump 1 program uses 23 of the 28 available Total PP points of a Model/1 M1 Ship's Computer when the program is running prior to going into and probably at the end when dropping out of jump space. Going to and from the Jump point all 28 PP are available for use by other programs up to the Total numbe of PP points.

Each weapon system, as far as I can tell, has a detected targeting/fire control computer built in to the mount, bay, or turret. Yes, the main Ship's computer can also be used to fire the weapon.

An example 28 1 PP point programs can be run each round that the computer is not being used for interstellar travel. At least that is how I understand the text from THB 1st printing p. 225 Total PP: This is the total amount of Processing Power (PP) points available for use by the computer each round. These PP points may be distributed as needed to run any number of programs.

November 26, 2003 04:15 PM If you forget to install a language module, you may not communicate with the computer.

My understanding of the text is that a Language Module program, THB, 1st printing p. 231, has already been installed for the default language say Swedish. In order for a person who does not speak Swedish to communicate with the computer say in Chinese that an additional language module has to be installed. The one item I noticed that was missing from the requirements of this program and a couple of others is an auditory sensor. Voders and language modules don't work to well if the computer can't hear the commands. I either posted this in T20 Q&A or here a while back. For hardware like the Voder, visual sensors, auditory sensors and other similar systems look at the VDS, THB 1st printing pp. 249-251.

THB, 1st printing p. 233, has a list of Contol panels and terminals. IF you notice they all have the same vl. I posted a suggestion on the T20 Q&A board that the vl should be changed. Here is my suggested changes:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Type Min TL Vol Cost Throughput
Basic Mech. 5 1.35 10,000 5
Adv. Mech. 6 1.35 10,000 8
Electronic 7 0.14 1,000 10
Adv. Electronic 9 0.01 1,000 100
Dynamic 11 0.03 2,000 200
Holographic 13 0.04 1,000 240 </pre>[/QUOTE]

November 26, 2003 05:42 PM The standard computers Model/1 to 9 does not take into account the panel requirements. At least they don't seem to.

You are correct that in the THB's, 1st printing, the SSDS computer section they don't mention anything about the need for terminals or other types of hardware. However, in the other Traveller variants design sequences the computer controls are subsumed in the componet. For example the bridge, engineering spaces, and staterooms all ready have the required systems installed. This is how I understood the SSDS Ship's Computer section works. Looking in Chapter 13 Standard Designs the text for the Ship's Computer table, THB 1st printing p. 282, says

The computers below are built using advanced synaptic components, but do not reflect the costs of additional software and interfaces needed for the computer to be used on board a starship. Such fittings increase the cost listed below by x10.

Using the muliplier does match the cost for a SSDS Ship's Computer design.

November 26, 2003 06:20 PM And another point is that TA 7 does not give us a complete example of a design sequence.:/ *Open acrobat and checks* Sadly, no, we only have the condensed form.

The lack of a complete example for any of the T20 design sequences is, at least to me, a small issue. A complete example of how to use all three design sequences would be nice. There are what appears to me 3 computers that were designed, not quite complete in my opinion, using the CDS. The Robot brain is probably the closest to using the CDS fully.

I seem to have finally run out of posts from FU and run into ones by some person, troublemaker for sure , by the name of Tom Rux, which means I should quit hogging the bandwidth.

I hope that all my verbose verbage has helped clear-up some of your questions.

Respectfully,

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again far-trader,

I was wondering if you've found your list yet. I would like to steal, er I mean barrow the conversions to add to my spreadsheet.

Originally posted by far-trader:
I thought Tom Rux had worked out that the Starship Design computers were buildable using the Computer Design rules. Perhaps I misremember his work, do a search in the T20 area by his CotI number for the posts.

My understanding is they are the Type M (Master Computer) models of the appropriate model number with all the necessary hardware (and a pair of redundancy backups?). And don't forget the Starship Design computer core (Ship's Computer table) is the part to compare to the Computer Design sequence.

I wish there had been better (some) examples of all the design sections and a much better level of integration so one could actually scale things across the whole personal/vehicle/ship design, but then this begger isn't riding yet

Old saying reference in case you've never actually heard it. "If wishes were horses beggers would ride."

The CPU requirements (actually PP units) are listed on pg. 229-232 but there might have been some errata so check that. The computers themselves do have errata concerning PP available so look at that as well.

I also have a list of PP conversions of all the old CT programs I was working out around here somewhere. I'll post it here when I get a chance to find it, though it's not too hard to figure out for yourself if you want.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello again far-trader,

I was wondering if you've found your list yet. I would to steal, er I mean barrow the conversions to add to my spreadsheet.

Not yet but the mess that passes for my filing system is facing the broom and shovel tonight in fact so with a little luck I'll stumble on them.

I'm more than happy to toss it out here for one and all. If you find it worth any more than the electrons required that's great. Fair warning, iirc, it's pretty basic and glancing at your own above very similar, though shorter.