Cost of an ATV

[Timerover51]

In going through the various Traveller editions and books, I have come across 3 prices for an ATV.

In the 1977 rules, an ATV costs 3 Million Credits, which does seem a bit high, but they also have the Air Raft at 6 Million Credits, again seems a bit high, and personal Grav Belts at 1 Million Credits, which actually seems about right.

In the 1981 Rules revisions, the ATV now costs 30,000 Credits, which seems a bit low, the Air Raft at 800,000 Credits, which seems about right, and the Grav Belt at 100,000 Credits, which does seem a bit low.

Then, in the JTAS No. 5 article, "Speculation without a Starship" by Loren Wiseman, the ATV is costing 300,000 Credits, which does seem to be about right.

For those interested, the US operated both a tracked and a wheeled ATV during World War 2. The tracked version was the amphibious Landing Vehicle, Track, while the wheeled version was the DUKW amphibious 6-wheel drive truck.

 

[aramis]

Note on the ATV - at KCr30 - it's roughly comparable to a 1977 list price for the high end winnebago 29' RV. Now, that's a roughly 6 tons. And masses 10.


Note that a lot of costs in CT are 1977 MSRPs.

The MCr3 sounds like someone scaling up an M113 (itself only 2 tons) to house the innards of a winnebago.

 

[Timerover51]

Are the 10 tons for the ATV based on Mass Tons, or does the 10 tons represent a volume of 10 Traveller displacement tons?

The WW2 DUKW amphibious truck was about 9.5 meters long by 2.54 meters wide by 2.7 meters high, so represents a cube volume of 65.15 cubic meters. Divide that by 13.5 cubic meters and you get just under 5 Traveller Displacement Tons. The Gross Weight, at least recommended Gross Weight, was 20,055 pounds, or about 9.1 metric tons. It was based on the 6-wheel drive 2.5 ton truck, and did have pretty good cross-country performance. Its governed top speed was 50 miles per hour or 80 kilometers per hour.

Based on the DUKW, if the ATV represents 10 Traveller dTons in volume, then it would go about 20 tons or so in mass. An M113 track, combat loaded, is about 11.3 metric tons, with a cube of about 35.75 cubic meters or 2.65 Traveller dTons. That would make a 10 Traveller dTon Tracked ATV considerably larger than an M113.

The ATV is designed to serve admirably on many different wor lds under widely varying conditions, including vacuum and insidious atmospheres and high or low gravity.

The quote is from Starter Traveller, and the emphasis is added. To operate in a vacuum implies the ability to operate with considerable pressure differential between the inside and the outside of the vehicle, while operation in an insidious atmosphere implies the existence of a sophisticated air lock. All that is going to drive up costs beyond the non-pressurized, no air lock Winnebago.

A Ground Car in Starter Traveller costs 4,000 Credits, which really makes the cost of the ATV appear much too low.

 

[ShapeShifter]

Given the near-ubiquity of air/rafts in the Dumarest books, I had figured that they were, by far, the most affordable of (relatively hi-tec) vehicles in human-inhabited space. The figures quoted above seem high IMO. IOW, they should be the affordable "work-horse": tough, easy to repair/find spare-parts, dependable, adaptable. Cr800k makes me go o:
*shrug* It's your campaign. You do what you want!

 

[mike wightman]

I give you the most overlooked yet obvious bit of errata for 77 CT:

Notes on Prices and Tech Levels
The following corrections to the prices in Traveller should be implemented.
All price changes consist of lowering the price of selected transportation systems by one or more decimal places.
Thus, a vehicle listed as costing CR'40000 and noted as being reduced one decimal place will cost CR 4000. Ground Car (-1). ATV (-21, AFV (-2).
Hovercraft (-1). Primitive Biplane Aircraft (-11, Helicopter (-1). Air/raft (-11, Grav Belts (-1).
Additionally, Mesh and Cloth should be reversed on the tech level table (Book 3, p. 101.
In general, prices will tend to drop by 5-15% at each tech level after the level of introduction of an item, with examples of the item sold at the regular base price generally incorporating
improvements or representing deluxe models.
Most items of a military nature can, on worlds with a population level of 9+, be purchased in quantity at a discount.
While discounts vary from world to world, a general average provides discounts of 20%. 40% and 60% at volume.
Small arms and support weapons must be purchased in lots of 20 (a case) to receive the 20% discount, lots of 100 to receive the 40% discount and lots of 1000 to receive the 60%
discount. Vehicles must be purchased in lots of 10 to receive the 20% discount, lots of 50 to receive the 40% discount, and lots of 100 to receive the 60% discount. Ammunition must be
purchased in lots of 500 units (clips, drums, cases, etc.) to receive the 20% discount, lots of 1000 units to receive the 40% discount, and lots of 10000 units to receive the 60% discount.

LBB4 Mercenary

 

[mike wightman]

Are the 10 tons for the ATV based on Mass Tons, or does the 10 tons represent a volume of 10 Traveller displacement tons?

In '77 edition it was mass tons, see page 43 of LBB2 to see the explanation that a ton of cargo is 1000kg.

 

[aramis]

In '77 edition it was mass tons, see page 43 of LBB2 to see the explanation that a ton of cargo is 1000kg.

Which makes it most likely the purchase cost of a new M113... in the '77
In the '81, it's about the mass and price of a winnebago... but 3x the size...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The equipment chapter in LBB3(81) uses metric units (one of which is 1 ton = 1000 kg).

E.g. p19 uses kg for anything lighter than 1000 kg and tons for anything heavier than 1000 kg.

The vehicles appears to use "ton" to describe mass. A helicopter is 1 ton, similar to say a Bell 206 with a mass of ~1000 kg. There is no reason to assume we have suddenly switched to another type of units.

Even the starship chapter in LBB2 is a bit imprecise and uses "ton" both for mass and displacement:

Hulls are identified by their mass displacement, expressed in tons. As a rough guide, one ton [displacement] equals 14 cubic meters (the volume of one ton [metric] of liquid hydrogen).

LBB2(81), p13.


On the other hand LBB2, p23 describes the hangar space necessary to carry various vehicles, using 1 dTon for each "ton" of vehicle.

 

[mike wightman]

Here is the bit from the trade section:

When determining the contents of a cargo, the players and referee must be certain to correlate the established price of goods with the cost per ton.
For example, the base price of a shotgun is Cr150, while a ton of firearms as trade goods
has a base price of Cr30,OOO.
A strict weight extension of the shotgun (3.75 kg per shotgun) would indicate 266 shotguns.
Extension should be instead based on price, with weight as a limiting factor.
Thus one ton of shotguns would contain 200 guns, at Cr150 each
The extra weight can be considered packing and crates.
Similar calculations should be made to keep prices in line on other trade goods.

So one ton of cargo is usually 1000kg... :CoW:

 

[jec10]

In '77 edition it was mass tons, see page 43 of LBB2 to see the explanation that a ton of cargo is 1000kg.

I disagree - I think it is displacement tons. Just as the air/raft is 4 dT and carries 4 mass tons of cargo along with four persons.

 

[mike wightman]

Read the quote...

 

[kilemall]

I always accepted the 600,000 Cr price for air/rafts, to me that is more like a personal helicopter then a ground vehicle.

 

[Condottiere]

These are military procurement scale prices.

Privately owned ones are likely family heirlooms at middle incomes.

 

[kilemall]

These are military procurement scale prices.

Privately owned ones are likely family heirlooms at middle incomes.

Or professional.

How many families own a semi-truck?

 

[Condottiere]

How many own a Piper Cub?

 

[aramis]

How many own a Piper Cub?

Considering that the cub's not been made in over a decade....

Used prices for a J3 run $30K to $100K centering around $40K...

An airplane is a (more mobile) hole (than a boat) into which to throw money.

 

[BlackBat242]

Given the near-ubiquity of air/rafts in the Dumarest books, I had figured that they were, by far, the most affordable of (relatively hi-tec) vehicles in human-inhabited space. The figures quoted above seem high IMO. IOW, they should be the affordable

unlimited range (10 weeks power), capable of reaching orbit, anti-grav

"work-horse": tough, easy to repair/find spare-parts, dependable, adaptable. Cr800k makes me go o:
*shrug* It's your campaign. You do what you want!

Expanded the description for better cost estimate.

 

[Jame]

Given the near-ubiquity of air/rafts in the Dumarest books, I had figured that they were, by far, the most affordable of (relatively hi-tec) vehicles in human-inhabited space. The figures quoted above seem high IMO. IOW, they should be the affordable "work-horse": tough, easy to repair/find spare-parts, dependable, adaptable. Cr800k makes me go o:
*shrug* It's your campaign. You do what you want!

I actually agree with you. A new air/raft of TL 10+ should really cost 30K-60K credits.

 

[Condottiere]

It's the grav modules; possibly a hybrid propulsion variant could ameliorate the cost.

 

[ShapeShifter]

The prices of a lot of things in RPGs in general always leave a lot to be desired. This is the case for Traveller as well as D&D (all editions).


Sidebar:

An air/raft can reach orbit in several hours (number of hours equal to planetary size digit in the UPP

I'm up to book 15 of the Dumarest series (Spectrum of a Forgotten Sun), and I cannot recollect any passage thus far where the air/raft was described as going up that far. Perhaps this will be detailed in a later volume.