Cost of Ship Yard

[Selandia]

The use of RU is a good idea. However it brings shipyard into the range of T4 Pocket Empire gaming, Empire building and Merchant Prince rater than Adventuring Free Trader.
Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want.

After all we do not buy every pipe of a book 2 starship through a 80 page bill of material, we are happy with throwing in: "low berth" @ 50,000 cr.. So at another scale it become "Low Bert assembly plant" 1RU.

have fun

Selandia

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Indeed.

The use of RU is a good idea. However it brings shipyard into the range of T4 Pocket Empire gaming, Empire building and Merchant Prince rater than Adventuring Free Trader.
Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want.

After all we do not buy every pipe of a book 2 starship through a 80 page bill of material, we are happy with throwing in: "low berth" @ 50,000 cr.. So at another scale it become "Low Bert assembly plant" 1RU.

have fun

Selandia

But building infrastructure is in the realm of Pocket Empires or Merchant Prince, it is not the realm of an Adventuring Free Trader.

Once a being or group of beings start looking to build, and I do seem to recall it was build not investing in, they stop being Free Traders and are elevated into the realm of Pocket Empires and Merchant Princes. Pretending that some yahoos with a couple million CrImps that can build a Shipyard is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[DangerousThing]

How do you figure that RUs are overkill?

Seriously, even a small shipyard is a billion CrImp endeavor. Frankly, my take is ramping the costs down as low as possible, maybe even lower all things considered.

I'll admit that to make a large shipyard that can build thousand ton ships should cost a lot. However a small shipyard should be able to be built for under 500 megacredits.

I'm talking a T5 small ACS ship, which is basically made of parts which can be ordered and assembled. Pretty much like the CT ships. The individual modules such as power plants and jump drives are interchangeable units that are ordered from a supplier so the shipyard doesn't have to build them.

Why should it take an amount in multiple RUs, which is a huge amount of money beyond any realistic character's ability to get?

In MgT there are drones that can repair a ship. Why can't you get some that will build the ship in the first place? And there is a chapter on robots in T5, though I haven't read through that one yet.

 

[Selandia]

But building infrastructure is in the realm of Pocket Empires or Merchant Prince, it is not the realm of an Adventuring Free Trader.

This is indeed my point, this is why RU is a good idea, this is the "natural" resource scale for that scale of endeavor. I am simply pointing that peoples must understand when they change the scale of their game when they get into RU, not bitching the idea.

This been said, if your Free Trader Group want to "swallow the anchor" and settle dirt side at Mcr scale, they could, at Adventure scale, own a small repair yard, the same way that I could buy a garage, a body shop or become a MacMuffler franchisee (or operate a chop shop :devil:for the Pirates) with money that is a minute fraction of the cost of a car assembly plant. If you own a Free Trader Starship (a small fortune by itself) its sale should provide you with small to medium business capital. If a Scout Tender could maintain and repair Scout and Xboat, you could probably create the economic of an orbital "boat" yard at ACS scale.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[aramis]

Selandia,

On the scale some of the A-Ports must needs operate, that Ma & Pa Grocery might just be the chandlery, Joe's Motor & Starship might be the civil repair yard, and the local Hortalez et Cie subsidiary "Mynakee Custom Fittings" might be the shipyard - with a tonnage limit of 400 Td in each of it's one berth... with "Scout Xyxxy's Fuel Cracking" being the colliery... with tankage being Xyxxy's, Zaphead's, Naruephone's, and A's non-functional type S's... all used as homes, engineering gutted for parts, and not a one still flying.

Traveller's Starport ratings don't actually give a size. An A-Port on a trivial backwater just needs to be able to scratch build a ship. Not even quickly, just be able to (equipped, stocked, staffed, trained, and licensed to) build starships and big craft.

It's not like certain competitor's Type A, AA, and AAA ports, which specifically state a trade volume and yard size...

 

[rancke]

Traveller's Starport ratings don't actually give a size. An A-Port on a trivial backwater just needs to be able to scratch build a ship. Not even quickly, just be able to (equipped, stocked, staffed, trained, and licensed to) build starships and big craft.

I think there would be some limit to that. If a world has a nobleman who is building a starship as a hobby and can be expected to finish it in a few decades, I don't think the starport would get a Class A rating from the Scouts. There'd need to be a reasonable turnover. A Class A starport is a place where a visiting starship can get an annual overhaul. Maybe not the same day it arrives in-system, but still in a timely manner.

Starport rating really ought to include capacity somehow. I know that canonically it doesn't, but it ought to. A Class A starport that can only service 100T ships sounds like a bit of a sham to me.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

Aramis

Note that the RU entered discussion when talking about Shipyard, potentially a whole industrial complex, not Starport. Indeed Starports include a fair number of Small and Medium business and, as I said, allow players to be Entrepreneur-Adventurer at Mcr scale. I do not challenge that.

As a ref, if I do not want to make up all of that dozen(s) of small and medium size business that may add up to the service of a A class Starport ( Should include VanKerk Towing & Salvage as well as Reliable Shuttle Inc, Rent an Air-raft, ...) I would certainly abstract things to the RU level, a natural one (I stick to that) if having a world building campaign: Ok you are the Duke of Malebranche, so: 1 basic Ru for your estate, including your 200t interstellar yacht, 1 RU for a banana plantation, 1 Ru for your private class A Starport, now, for your final RU: the port is provided with a Shipyard capable of building Very Large Bulk Carrier at rate of 10,000t a month, or, a car assembly plan, or, a billion credit of Luxury liners (players love to design ships, there you could just throw money at them) with service to the Subsector capital?

After that, I and the players would just take for granted that an Ice cream parlor exist at the Starport if I need one in the adventure. I would hate to look at 30 pages of details to see if the duke under priced the ice-cream machine or forgot to buy a shuttle for his Starport. To be candid, I never had the players to run Pocket Empire, so it is just wishful thinking

Your description of the starport made me smile, when I ran a campaign around a trade war associated with the upgrading of Talos/268 Starport, everything was Adventure scale and the Starport was looking much as you describe it, as more and more "gypsies" added themselves to the orbital "Boom town" (it was absurd that a crossroad on the J-1 route had nothing more as a Starport, so I claimed that local ports were Private Starports owned by trade cartels trying to ban non cartel member from business...your mission should you accept it is to manage an orbital terminal open to the general trade).

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Icosahedron]

According to Pocket Empires Starport Construction Table:

X to E Free 1 year.
E to D 1.2RU 2 years.
D to C 120RU 10 years.
C to B 600RU 20 years.
B to A 2400RU 30 years.

Presumably this is the cost to the government.

The cost of building Granny Smith's Fruit Smoothie Bar would be borne (or repaid in rent) by Granny Smith & family, and would be a natural development at some point during the 63 year construction project.
Likewise the latest addition to the Halton hotel chain

I agree that a group of adventurers could probably create a small yard capable of assembling a Type S from imported components for a fraction of the above costs in a fraction of the above time, but I also agree it would not attract an official Class A rating. If you want the rating you pay the money and build the capacity.

Note also that the above costs and times are for the starport alone. You need simultaneously to build infrastructure to support the construction and population to generate the demand, etc.
This will significantly increase the total cost and time.

 

[Shadowrunner]

Costs surely will vary throughout the galaxy. In a Jump 2 densely populated area where resources and people are abundant, construction and shipping costs will plummet, while in disputed territories and developing territories, costs spiral when for example, extra security and insurance is required. If there are industries and resources already in the system, or another starport nearby, then again costs should reduce themselves considerably.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. Here are my original figures for Tavonni Down:

STARPORT TOTALS	

Starport Building, component type 1                     Cr   849,703,680
Starport Building, component type 1 x 3 x 80% discount  Cr 2,039,288,832
Starport Building, component type 2                     Cr   478,808,960
Starport Building, component type 1 x 80%               Cr   383,047,168
Airlocks for the above                                  Cr     2,620,000
Security section                                        Cr   130,644,336
Tarmac areas                                            Cr   413,203,230
Standard warehouse                                      Cr    30,505,960
Standard warehouse x 7 x 80%                            Cr   170,833,376
Deluxe warehouse                                        Cr    66,255,960
Deluxe warehouse x 80%                                  Cr    53,004,768
Bonded warehouse                                        Cr    76,523,504
Customs house                                           Cr    25,301,472
Missile stockpile site                                  Cr    79,856,688
Missile stockpile site x 3 x 80%                        Cr   191,656,051
Control Tower                                           Cr   182,341,986
Fuel dump (25,000 disp. tons cap.)                      Cr     9,953,456
Fuel dump x 19 x 80%                                    Cr   151,292,531
Fuel/power/data lines                                   Cr     1,064,509
Power plant                                             Cr   342,082,750
Employee building & vehicle parking                     Cr   624,691,472
Starport Hotel "Ad Astra"                               Cr   413,666,720
Fencing, 35 km @ Cr 500                                 Cr    17,500,000

GRAND TOTAL                                             Cr 6,733,847,409

All port buildings are min AF 55; some (like security and the control tower are [CLASSIFIED] ...more than that. Notice also that we have 500,000 tons refined fuel available; I think that requirement's taken from High Guard or Fifth Frontier War.


Then I realised you were really only after the repair bays:

BASIC LAYOUT

    O  O  O
    |  |  |
----+--+--+--O
^   |  |  |
|   O  O  O
|
L-- connects to rest of starport

Vertical plan, showing 7 hemispherical hangars connected by tarmac.

7 Hangars, 200m diameter, AF 55, basic env, basic l-s, large and small airlocks.
TOTAL FOR DOMES			Cr 6,837,770,533

FIT-OUT
200 assembler 'bots
12 heavy construction
15 'port mechanics
15 general purpose

Power plant, data lines

				Cr 132,230,275

Computers 9fib x 2, hol controls)	Cr 143,464,500

SURROUNDS

5.5 km tarmac, fences, hard stands

GRAND TOTAL			Cr 7,146,630,134

[EDIT: well, that didn't work. Let's try it with code tags.]

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Here's the rest of the post on Tavonni Down, detailing what's available when you land here. If you're just interested in the repair bays, you can ignore this.

REQUIREMENTS FOR A CLASS-B STARPORT

These were all taken from "50 Starbases" by Judges Guild, enhanced with stuff from Exionidas and various JTAS articles.

Landing bay facilities
Two scooters per grounded ship
Motor pool of assorted vehicles
Computer net hookup
Warning sensor network for each ship
Armed security guard on duty

Consumables
Water
Basic nutrient rations
Luxuries from across the sector
Locally grown food types
Oxygen replacement (by-product of fuel refinement)

Fuel
Refined from gas giant (orbital)
Refined from sea (ground)
"Leech" vehicles for pipeline-to-ship connections (trendi to supply)
Powerplant to run the base

Armament
Missile stockpile
Laser replacement parts (Lone Scout Enterprises to supply)
Sand canisters (Lone Scout Enterprises to supply)
Special (trendi missiles, etc)

Repair
Annual maintenance overhaul (Lone Scout Enterprises to supply)
Shipyard constructing spaceships (Lone Scout Enterprises to supply)

Passengers
Computerised passenger lists
Computerised departure and destination lists (electronic boards)
Decent hotel(s) with food services
TAS Hostel

Cargo
Capability to handle individual items weighing up to 1000 tons (trendi Storch)
Bonded warehouses with good security and variable internal conditions for storage

Orbital facilities
Orbital station present (Eshpidar plus extras), basic version minimum includes:
Accomodation for up to 250 passengers and 250 work crew (min)
Regular shuttle service to the planet
Small craft availablefor hire
Type A2 Far Trader available for hire on 11+
Refined fuel available (Orb-class in orbit around Ryzel; fuel pods in transfer orbit to Tavonni)
Water and basic food supplies available
Small craft spare parts available
Highport craft
2-12 shuttles
1-6 tugs
1-3 rescue tugs (optional)
1-6 rescue missiles
Geo-sync beacons x 2 (min. to allow planet-wide coverage)

Ground facilities
Starport Security
Minor repair shop (Lone Scout Enterprises to supply)
Replacements warehouse
Restaurant
Small industrial complex (Stage 2, SE of starport)
Small entertainment complex (Stage 2, part of Tamoachan City, N of starport)
Shopping mall (Stage 2, city)
Sanitation plant
Life-support repair (Lone Scout Enterprises to supply)
Refinery
Power plant for city
Hospital
Airport [DONE - part of starport]
trendi factory
Menelvagor offices
Lone Scout Enterprises shipyards
Caradoc offices
Fire Control centre
Starport vehicle parking bays
Defences
Missile batteries
Fusion gun turrets
Deep-site meson guns


Note the prices don't account for everything on the list above (e.g. most of the "ground facilities have not been priced yet).

Scout base facilities
Refuelling facilities (independent of main starport)
Minor maintenance
Administration
General accomodation
Cookhouse
Medical centre
Power plant
Defence stores
General storage
Telemetry equipment & sensors
Vehicle garaging
Imperial Marine accomodation
Xboat detection and recovery facilities (mostly orbital; aka Xboat station)

Whew! And that's just to achieve a B- rating.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

No replies - did I scare people off, or just miss the 'boat?

 

[aramis]

Dear Folks -

No replies - did I scare people off, or just miss the 'boat?

Citing JG stuff, even when it's good, tends to silence things...

And 50sb is excellent- for a small-ship universe, at least.

 

[pendragonman]

Aramis, where can I find 50 SB? Even in PDF?

 

[Hyphen]

@Pendragon, it's available on CDROM Traveller Apocrypha -2, available from Marc over at farfuture.

 

[pendragonman]

@Pendragon, it's available on CDROM Traveller Apocrypha -2, available from Marc over at farfuture.

Excellent. Now how to explain to the wife I need this cd after spending what I spent on kickstarter...