PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Let's just say I'm hoping T20 will prove the definitive rules varient.
but I'm not holding my breath.
but I'm not holding my breath.
cost of t20
- Thread starter trader jim
- Start date
Eh, I don't really think of it that way. I have all the traveller rule sets, and none of them are obsolete in any real why. I just think that each one developed a new and different way of playing the game, and with GURPS and T20 they open up the background to players who are familiar with particular systems, and not the background.
The setting never becomes obsolete, either. We move on to new systems to see, IMHO, if it gives a new angle and feeling to that setting.
The setting never becomes obsolete, either. We move on to new systems to see, IMHO, if it gives a new angle and feeling to that setting.
jalexandratos
SOC-8
Heh, another great mind?Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Falkayn:
Fortunately, for the PHB problem there is some help near at hand. (busts out super-duper Open-Gaming outfit)
Whilst it's outside the scope of a d20 license to tell you how to raise a characters' level, it is not outside the scope of the Open Gaming License.
Anyone interested?
I was thinking along this very line when I posted recently hinting at the fact I might (given time and inspiration) solve all those laments this very way, but I needed to check the ogl stuff again to be sure I had understood it. I've been too busy as yet, and still trying to come up with an idea for my Traveler (note the single 'l' spelling) ogl freeware gamette (very small game). Of course if all T20 is really missing is the basic xp table and rules it may not be needed, so we'll see if my muse visits soon. Or go ahead yourself
There is no Open Game Content in the PHB.
That means that no content from the PHB can be reprinted anywhere.
Keep in mind, that this not only encompasses the character advancement rules, it also covers skill and feat descriptions as well as the combat basics.
Can someone please explain to me how this is any different from having to buy the GURPS Rules and Compendium I in order to play G:T?
-begin rant
Have you ever added up how much those games cost to produce/print/distribute? It's been said before and I'll say it here again. RPG Game publishing is not a "get rich scheme." (and I don't really see a problem if it were/is) Even for WOTC. Truth is, compared to their other lines (Magic/Pokeman) d20 is a dog.
I'm always amazed that people argue the cost of art (yes, I consider game design an art). Either you want the piece of art and are willing to pay for it or you're not. After buying the main Traveller rules you never had to purchase anything else. If you did, then you wanted to have that piece of art and were willing to pay the price.
-end rant
p.s. I am not a professional game designer, nor do I work for WOTC, FarFuture, Hunter, etc.
RabidVargr
SOC-13
That's a damn good point. My only gripe with buying the DND book is (ok, price too) that you can't use very much out of it at all for Trav. Gurps has all the rules you need, G:T just modifies a few of them and gives special gear and history.
DND on the other hand contributes nothing but the xp table, and medevil weapons in case you land on a crappy tech 4 or 5 world.
RV
I don't have a problem with d20 or the way the OGL or d20 licenses work. I already have a Players Handbook, so the 36 bucks for T20 isn't a big deal for me. And, I will almost certainly buy a second, full price, copy for use at the gaming table, to protect my group from the expense- but I'm like that. It won't be the only system I have two copies of, one for me as a ref and the other for the group.
In order to play T20 you will have to buy it and buy, borrow the PHB. That's the bottom line as I see it. You'll only need one copy of the PHB for the whole group to use, but you could have more than one copy of the T20 rulebook.
If each member of my group buys T20, then the cost of the game isn't T20+PHB x 4. It's (T20x4)+PHB.
Just another way of looking at it.
In order to play T20 you will have to buy it and buy, borrow the PHB. That's the bottom line as I see it. You'll only need one copy of the PHB for the whole group to use, but you could have more than one copy of the T20 rulebook.
If each member of my group buys T20, then the cost of the game isn't T20+PHB x 4. It's (T20x4)+PHB.
Just another way of looking at it.
<sigh> ... Well, whilst the PHB is not OGL, the SRD (System Reference Document) contains 99.99% of the rules that are in the PHB, including the ones you'll need to play T20 (or any D20 system game). The SRD is 100% Open Game Content (OGC), and thus can be 100% reproduced by anyone who wants to use those rules under the Open Game License (OGL).
HOWEVER, if you are a publisher who wants to ca$h in on the D20 logo/marketing push of WOTC, then you are required to use the D20 System Trademark License, which also prevents you using those pats of the SRD that reference gaining character levels.
QuikLink have chosen to make T20 a D20 system game, which makes a lot of sense because it allows them to get in on the whole D20 thing ... I (that is me personally) can however publish the summarised rules on character level advancement as a legal and sellable item under the OGL, and because much of the T20 rules are themselves OGC I could even weave into that product references to their rules. What I could not do is use the Traveller product identity (i.e. Trademarks), such as Vargr, Traveller, Hava-Cola, Spinward Marches, etc. Seeing as I don't intend to make a buck off this exercise I would probably just try to get QuikLink to allow me use the term T20/Traveller20 in the document.
Am I sure this is the case? Hell yeah ... I've been subscribed to the Open Gaming Foundation's mailing lists for the last 2 years.
MichaelL65
SOC-12
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the combat system also used?
I mentioned in another forum that was having a similar rant, that you can consider the D&D PHB a core rules handbook that comes with a free sample game (which you can choose to ignore). It might be looking at the glass half full when it's only a third, but it can re-arrange the thinking...
But is the combat system not only used but excluded from the T20 manual, instead referencing the D&D 3e PHB? I admit the rules for combat in the T20-Lite version are a bit vague, I will look at the D&D PHB for details I guess.
The cost isn't bad as far as I am concerned.. I think about it in terms of content.. I don't have to have just ONE master book for my $$, as long as all the books combined don't = more than $$$
Let's be brutal honest. If you can't afford this game at $45 + $21 for the D&D PHB (Amazon.com price) then you are pretty broke... $45 for this large a book is a pretty decent deal.. I spend $40-60 per computer game so it isn't that big a difference.
-] Crow
The cost isn't bad as far as I am concerned.. I think about it in terms of content.. I don't have to have just ONE master book for my $$, as long as all the books combined don't = more than $$$
Let's be brutal honest. If you can't afford this game at $45 + $21 for the D&D PHB (Amazon.com price) then you are pretty broke... $45 for this large a book is a pretty decent deal.. I spend $40-60 per computer game so it isn't that big a difference.
-] Crow
<sigh> ... Well, whilst the PHB is not OGL, the SRD (System Reference Document) contains 99.99% of the rules that are in the PHB, including the ones you'll need to play T20 (or any D20 system game). The SRD is 100% Open Game Content (OGC), and thus can be 100% reproduced by anyone who wants to use those rules under the Open Game License (OGL).
HOWEVER, if you are a publisher who wants to ca$h in on the D20 logo/marketing push of WOTC, then you are required to use the D20 System Trademark License, which also prevents you using those pats of the SRD that reference gaining character levels.
QuikLink have chosen to make T20 a D20 system game, which makes a lot of sense because it allows them to get in on the whole D20 thing ... I (that is me personally) can however publish the summarised rules on character level advancement as a legal and sellable item under the OGL, and because much of the T20 rules are themselves OGC I could even weave into that product references to their rules. What I could not do is use the Traveller product identity (i.e. Trademarks), such as Vargr, Traveller, Hava-Cola, Spinward Marches, etc. Seeing as I don't intend to make a buck off this exercise I would probably just try to get QuikLink to allow me use the term T20/Traveller20 in the document.
Am I sure this is the case? Hell yeah ... I've been subscribed to the Open Gaming Foundation's mailing lists for the last 2 years.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]so, the GM/DM only needs to create a 'player suppliment' showing creation rules HE wants in HIS game, EXP table, prestigue classes IHTU, house rules...that's what? 5-10 pages?...copies to each player, @ $0.5 a page, $.50...
whats the biggie?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hi Nurd_boy, I thought I understood it the same way but was/am unsure cause I've not been following the whole srd/ogl thing real close. So if I get a PDF prepped of the required stuff, staying well clear of any QLI copyright, would you mind giving it a look over and see if I missed anything or included any verboten material? Contact me off-list @ <far_trader_mail@yahoo.ca> if you like. Thanks.
I hope you mean d20 is THE BIG DOG. Because I hate Trading Card Games (I blame them for the near-demise of RPGs) and frankly, Pokemon is so last millenium. The bean-counting idiot who still think that Pokemon is still hot should have been tossed from the Wizards Headquarter into the Pacific Ocean.
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
reginald - DOUBLE "DITTO" to that and i second that motion!!
Gallowglass
SOC-12
I hope you mean d20 is THE BIG DOG. Because I hate Trading Card Games (I blame them for the near-demise of RPGs) and frankly, Pokemon is so last millenium. The bean-counting idiot who still think that Pokemon is still hot should have been tossed from the Wizards Headquarter into the Pacific Ocean.
</font>[/QUOTE]And another topic veers off in to a completely unintended by way... erm whatever ones personal feelings re TCG, Pokemon etc etc, they still I believe dwarf D&D on the WotC financial report to Hasbro each quarter...As for the SRD / OGL. IANAL and IIRC the d20 STL(or possible the d20 STL Guidelines) stipulates that a d20 STL product will not include "Character Creation" (the SRD mentions the six D&D stat, that they typically range from 3-18 etc, but does mention "six rolls of 4d6 taking the highest three in each case") or Experience /Levelling Up (the SRD doesn't include the xp table, nor do I remember seeing anything on Challenge Ratings and awarding xp, nor the basic "to reach level n+1 a characters needs an additional n*1000 xp" formula). But everything else from PHB, Monster Manual and I beleive the Psionics handbook is there and it is likely that stuff from d20 Modern will also end up in the SRD.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
SO....reading what people who claim knowledge on the subject say...NOW...
I AM wrong about the OGL and STL. (see previous post and/or quote here and on T5)
WtoC IS holding T20 hostage with a ransom of one of 'their' otherwise useless books (okay okay not useless since I do play and expect to play d&d, and I did like Starwars, damn beautiful rhetoric demolished by an ugly reality check).
So I can retract my retraction and continue to insult them with terms such as Chislers, extortion, MicroSoft etc....
And my anger was at least partly justified. At least... it wasn't based on false assumptions.
The deal is still One game for the price of Two.
frikin' Chislers.
I AM wrong about the OGL and STL. (see previous post and/or quote here and on T5)
WtoC IS holding T20 hostage with a ransom of one of 'their' otherwise useless books (okay okay not useless since I do play and expect to play d&d, and I did like Starwars, damn beautiful rhetoric demolished by an ugly reality check).
So I can retract my retraction and continue to insult them with terms such as Chislers, extortion, MicroSoft etc....
And my anger was at least partly justified. At least... it wasn't based on false assumptions.
The deal is still One game for the price of Two.
frikin' Chislers.
I did a brief check of the SRD version at the Open Gaming Foundation website (which includes sections currently only released under a "gentleman's agreement" with publishers.
Lo and behold, I must express humility as the required experience table and a description of how characters get an extra feat every 3 character levels, their class' skill points every level and an extra attribute point every 4 levels is not covered. However, I suspect that one could include something like these in a OGC product, provided it was not released under the d20 logo.
The d20 System Guide states that:
That's the restriction T20 is published under. There is nothing stopping them having a complete set of combat rules ... basically you would only buy the PHB to work out how to go up levels (but frankly you should be able to suss that out on your own).
Cheers,
Smiling DM
SOC-12
Well, I guess its time to wiegh in with my 0.02 CrOriginally posted by Garf:
The deal is still One game for the price of Two.
frikin' Chislers.
Should note - Garf, this isn't aimed at you personally - just used your post as a reply to maintain continuity of the post - no offense is intended.
1) Price of QLI's new book
The price is fine at $45 for T20. The cost per page is one argument. I'll toss up another. Earlier this year I forked over $38 for FFE001 which is 256 pages of REPRINT, ie. no NEW CONTENT. And I haven't heard a single peep on that cost - everyone seems thrilled with it or makes excuses that it has to be priced that way to support FFE as a small game company.
Based on what the playtesters say, the previews and T20 lite, I'll hazard a guess that the T20 book is at least (note I say at least) 50% NEW CONTENT. And yet everyone is bashing the price. QLI doesn't strike me as being any different than FFE in terms of size (both small and and working with limited funds), so why don't we cut them the same pricing slack?
It seems like a double standard borne out of a general distrust out of anything D20 rather than a fair, objective evaluation of the value of the T20 product. If a person doesn't like D20, then fine - they shouldn't buy it. If they feel the T20 price is too high for the RPG market, then fine - it might be, though comparison to other new product suggests that the market will bear it. But to rail on the price because someone doesn't like D20 isn't a rational argument.
2) Getting hold of the 'key' character progression info
Anyone who wants can get ahold of the key info needed to advance characters at NO cost. Regardless of WoTC's strategy (which is indeed a masterful stroke from a market/business perspective - something they copied from their rich neighbor there in Redmond), the information can be readily found in a number of public sources - try a library. Or one of the many people who have offered to share this info, publically and privately. Or simply go to the FLGS, pull the book from the shelf, read the key page and put it back.
If someone doesn't like WoTC's strategy on D20 - fine. But don't bash T20 just because QLI has to play by the rules. People have a lot of options to overcome the barrier that WoTC has placed in our path, not QLI.
I should note, I am not an employee nor associated with QLI in any fashion other than as a customer and Traveller fan. Though perhaps my defense of Hunter et. al. might earn me some extra SOC
Gallowglass
SOC-12
(Dons flame-proof under-clothes, grabs trusty +3 Keyboard of Doom
)...Justify or retract please! WotC allow royalty free (i.e. they don't get paid) access to their IP, all they require in return is a printed recommendation in the licensed product that people buy a WotC product and you accuse them of "holding T20 hostage"! Dislike d20 all you like, but WotC are NOT FORCING you to buy anything, and QLI have decided to go the d20 route AT PRESENT, but could do an OGL version that (a la Everquest) contains everything. (Struggles against rising red mist) No... its... not... A written note in the front of the T20 book(even on the cover) to the effect of "Requires the 3e Players Handbook" is NOT "Buy the 3e Player's Handbook or we will come round your house, beat you up, set fire to your cat and steal all you games except D&D". More importantly, it does NOT force retailers or d20 publshers to ONLY sell T20 with a PHB. That individuals don't like d20 / don't like the marketing strategy I have no problem with. Given that two other games (GURPS and BRP)either have or still do operate more "restrictive" "gouging" policies (whatever they are), I am sick to death of the rampant hostility towards d20 / WotC, especially when the decision that has people all wound up (using the d20 STL and thus needing the reference to the PHB) was a business decision by QLI that no-one has offered a rational criticism of as a business decision. *sigh* and I thought the WWW was supposed to enhance rational debate...So I can retract my retraction and continue to insult them with terms such as Chislers, extortion, MicroSoft etc....
And my anger was at least partly justified. At least... it wasn't based on false assumptions.
The deal is still One game for the price of Two.
frikin' Chislers.
(Does several ancient Vilani breathing exercises, takes a dried frog pill...)
I personally feel that the price T20 is a big hit of cash to outlay in one go, and that it might have been better to do it as an OGL. But I am a kibbitzing Fan, and a MT/CT player to boot, NOT a core d20 / T20 player nor QLI who are the ones taking the financial risk. And certainly at present, the d20 buzz can only help re-establish the Traveller name in gaming circles, which should help subsequent releases.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
I know you quoted me for the 'continuity of the thread'
I know your comments were not directed at me.
However, just so no one reading your post misunderstand my point of view:
I never, ever, bashed T20 on the merits of the game vs. cost. I've played some d20 games and I'm an avid traveller player The idea of T20 thrills me. Just about everthing QLI has posted in terms of rules and campaign data I've run through my printer so that I can read it at work on my coffee breaks or so that I may show it to my friends.
What I have consistently objected to, and at whom my anger is directed are The policy of 'you have to buy the PHB (or some facsimile thereof)' and WotC for having this policy.
WotC are the 'Chislers' IMO.
If you check my posts on this and other threads I don't think I've ever said t20 was bad, or to expensive in and of itself nor have I had any but good things to say about t20's publisher. (even if I do get confused between FFE, QLI, Judges Guild etc.)
You quoted me and I understand you meant no harm. I'm just making sure that the context is understood so that no harm happens.
thank you for your time and concern.
I know your comments were not directed at me.
However, just so no one reading your post misunderstand my point of view:
I never, ever, bashed T20 on the merits of the game vs. cost. I've played some d20 games and I'm an avid traveller player The idea of T20 thrills me. Just about everthing QLI has posted in terms of rules and campaign data I've run through my printer so that I can read it at work on my coffee breaks or so that I may show it to my friends.
What I have consistently objected to, and at whom my anger is directed are The policy of 'you have to buy the PHB (or some facsimile thereof)' and WotC for having this policy.
WotC are the 'Chislers' IMO.
If you check my posts on this and other threads I don't think I've ever said t20 was bad, or to expensive in and of itself nor have I had any but good things to say about t20's publisher. (even if I do get confused between FFE, QLI, Judges Guild etc.)
You quoted me and I understand you meant no harm. I'm just making sure that the context is understood so that no harm happens.
thank you for your time and concern.
