PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Let's just say I'm hoping T20 will prove the definitive rules varient.
but I'm not holding my breath.
but I'm not holding my breath.
Heh, another great mind? I was thinking along this very line when I posted recently hinting at the fact I might (given time and inspiration) solve all those laments this very way, but I needed to check the ogl stuff again to be sure I had understood it. I've been too busy as yet, and still trying to come up with an idea for my Traveler (note the single 'l' spelling) ogl freeware gamette (very small game). Of course if all T20 is really missing is the basic xp table and rules it may not be needed, so we'll see if my muse visits soon. Or go ahead yourselfOriginally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Falkayn:
Fortunately, for the PHB problem there is some help near at hand. (busts out super-duper Open-Gaming outfit)
Whilst it's outside the scope of a d20 license to tell you how to raise a characters' level, it is not outside the scope of the Open Gaming License.
Anyone interested?
-begin rantOriginally posted by vegascat:
The real question is are we soing to get what we paid for, and paid for and paid again and again and again and again? How many supplements do each of you have for Traveller? Ever add up the total cost of our little hobby? I sent a few game designers kids through college just by myself.
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In the end, Murphy will rule
That's a damn good point. My only gripe with buying the DND book is (ok, price too) that you can't use very much out of it at all for Trav. Gurps has all the rules you need, G:T just modifies a few of them and gives special gear and history.Originally posted by Dree:
Can someone please explain to me how this is any different from having to buy the GURPS Rules and Compendium I in order to play G:T?
<sigh> ... Well, whilst the PHB is not OGL, the SRD (System Reference Document) contains 99.99% of the rules that are in the PHB, including the ones you'll need to play T20 (or any D20 system game). The SRD is 100% Open Game Content (OGC), and thus can be 100% reproduced by anyone who wants to use those rules under the Open Game License (OGL).Originally posted by Dree:
Let me put the kibosh on these ideas right now.
There is no Open Game Content in the PHB.
That means that no content from the PHB can be reprinted anywhere.
Keep in mind, that this not only encompasses the character advancement rules, it also covers skill and feat descriptions as well as the combat basics.
Can someone please explain to me how this is any different from having to buy the GURPS Rules and Compendium I in order to play G:T?[/QB]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the combat system also used?Originally posted by RabidVargr:
... My only gripe with buying the DND book is (ok, price too) that you can't use very much out of it at all for Trav. Gurps has all the rules you need, G:T just modifies a few of them and gives special gear and history.
DND on the other hand contributes nothing but the xp table, and medevil weapons in case you land on a crappy tech 4 or 5 world.
RV
<sigh> ... Well, whilst the PHB is not OGL, the SRD (System Reference Document) contains 99.99% of the rules that are in the PHB, including the ones you'll need to play T20 (or any D20 system game). The SRD is 100% Open Game Content (OGC), and thus can be 100% reproduced by anyone who wants to use those rules under the Open Game License (OGL).Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dree:
Let me put the kibosh on these ideas right now.
There is no Open Game Content in the PHB.
That means that no content from the PHB can be reprinted anywhere.
Keep in mind, that this not only encompasses the character advancement rules, it also covers skill and feat descriptions as well as the combat basics.
Can someone please explain to me how this is any different from having to buy the GURPS Rules and Compendium I in order to play G:T?
I hope you mean d20 is THE BIG DOG. Because I hate Trading Card Games (I blame them for the near-demise of RPGs) and frankly, Pokemon is so last millenium. The bean-counting idiot who still think that Pokemon is still hot should have been tossed from the Wizards Headquarter into the Pacific Ocean.Originally posted by Solo:
Have you ever added up how much those games cost to produce/print/distribute? It's been said before and I'll say it here again. RPG Game publishing is not a "get rich scheme." (and I don't really see a problem if it were/is) Even for WOTC. Truth is, compared to their other lines (Magic/Pokeman) d20 is a dog.
I hope you mean d20 is THE BIG DOG. Because I hate Trading Card Games (I blame them for the near-demise of RPGs) and frankly, Pokemon is so last millenium. The bean-counting idiot who still think that Pokemon is still hot should have been tossed from the Wizards Headquarter into the Pacific Ocean. </font>[/QUOTE]And another topic veers off in to a completely unintended by way... erm whatever ones personal feelings re TCG, Pokemon etc etc, they still I believe dwarf D&D on the WotC financial report to Hasbro each quarter...Originally posted by Reginald:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Solo:
Have you ever added up how much those games cost to produce/print/distribute? It's been said before and I'll say it here again. RPG Game publishing is not a "get rich scheme." (and I don't really see a problem if it were/is) Even for WOTC. Truth is, compared to their other lines (Magic/Pokeman) d20 is a dog.
I did a brief check of the SRD version at the Open Gaming Foundation website (which includes sections currently only released under a "gentleman's agreement" with publishers.Originally posted by Gallowglass:
As for the SRD / OGL. IANAL and IIRC the d20 STL(or possible the d20 STL Guidelines) stipulates that a d20 STL product will not include "Character Creation" (the SRD mentions the six D&D stat, that they typically range from 3-18 etc, but does mention "six rolls of 4d6 taking the highest three in each case") or Experience /Levelling Up (the SRD doesn't include the xp table, nor do I remember seeing anything on Challenge Ratings and awarding xp, nor the basic "to reach level n+1 a characters needs an additional n*1000 xp" formula). But everything else from PHB, Monster Manual and I beleive the Psionics handbook is there and it is likely that stuff from d20 Modern will also end up in the SRD.
That's the restriction T20 is published under. There is nothing stopping them having a complete set of combat rules ... basically you would only buy the PHB to work out how to go up levels (but frankly you should be able to suss that out on your own).From www.wizards.com/d20
Mandatory Restrictions:
No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of any kind that:
· Describe a process for Creating a Character
· Describe a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character
No Covered Product may change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term as enumerated in this Guide.
No Covered Product may include “Miniatures”.
No Covered Product may use the term “Core Book” on its cover, title, advertising, or self-reference.
Well, I guess its time to wiegh in with my 0.02 CrOriginally posted by Garf:
The deal is still One game for the price of Two.
frikin' Chislers.
Originally posted by Garf:
SO....reading what people who claim knowledge on the subject say...NOW...
I AM wrong about the OGL and STL. (see previous post and/or quote here and on T5)
WtoC IS holding T20 hostage with a ransom of one of 'their' otherwise useless books (okay okay not useless since I do play and expect to play d&d, and I did like Starwars, damn beautiful rhetoric demolished by an ugly reality check).
(Struggles against rising red mist) No... its... not... A written note in the front of the T20 book(even on the cover) to the effect of "Requires the 3e Players Handbook" is NOT "Buy the 3e Player's Handbook or we will come round your house, beat you up, set fire to your cat and steal all you games except D&D". More importantly, it does NOT force retailers or d20 publshers to ONLY sell T20 with a PHB. That individuals don't like d20 / don't like the marketing strategy I have no problem with. Given that two other games (GURPS and BRP)either have or still do operate more "restrictive" "gouging" policies (whatever they are), I am sick to death of the rampant hostility towards d20 / WotC, especially when the decision that has people all wound up (using the d20 STL and thus needing the reference to the PHB) was a business decision by QLI that no-one has offered a rational criticism of as a business decision. *sigh* and I thought the WWW was supposed to enhance rational debate...So I can retract my retraction and continue to insult them with terms such as Chislers, extortion, MicroSoft etc....
And my anger was at least partly justified. At least... it wasn't based on false assumptions.
The deal is still One game for the price of Two.
frikin' Chislers.