here is an alternative method.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20618&highlight=military+budgets
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20618&highlight=military+budgets
Costing a Subsector Fleet
- Thread starter Mithras
- Start date
That's good to hear. Especially if it also base it on the canonical figure of an average of 1000 major ships per sector. And maybe assume that "average" means more than that near the borders and less in the interior. Then all one has to do is assume that, unlike with small pocket empires, half the navy budget goes to pay for bases and logistics and the cost of the Imperial fleet actually falls into the ballpark of the canonical average 3% of GWP military spending for Imperial worlds.
Hans
That worked!
I also simplified the tax procedure, I realised that if I keep the modifiers to 'average' x1, then I can cut a couple of steps; simply multiplying the population by Cr90 to get the 'imperial' naval budget. My total is a very manageable Cr173.99 billion; and I have no billion population worlds anymore.
Now I've worked out rough percentages of yard space each A and B class can provide me (with their comensurate TLs). I'm not going to build low tech ships, then go through the rigamarole of upgrading. I'm simply buying a spread of TLs from the different yards, and assuming that some will have been upgraded from older models.
I think I'm set. It's a daunting task now ... but I think I might try to field a theoretical fleet using CT designs, then start replacing them with my own as I go. Though some will definately stay...
I also simplified the tax procedure, I realised that if I keep the modifiers to 'average' x1, then I can cut a couple of steps; simply multiplying the population by Cr90 to get the 'imperial' naval budget. My total is a very manageable Cr173.99 billion; and I have no billion population worlds anymore.
Now I've worked out rough percentages of yard space each A and B class can provide me (with their comensurate TLs). I'm not going to build low tech ships, then go through the rigamarole of upgrading. I'm simply buying a spread of TLs from the different yards, and assuming that some will have been upgraded from older models.
I think I'm set. It's a daunting task now ... but I think I might try to field a theoretical fleet using CT designs, then start replacing them with my own as I go. Though some will definately stay...
One thing to consider is that a subsector-wide navy can build its ships at the starports with the highest tech level and use those with lower tech levels to maintain them. If the capacity is high enough, of course, but if you assume that ships have a service life of 40 or 50 years (unless shot to pieces, of course), replacements only require a capacity of a fraction the total fleet tonnage (2 to 2.5% for ships that take a year to build, adjusted up or down for other construction times).
Hans
My base assumption is 100 to 150 years for service life of a well maintained Naval vessel...(10years x TL )
I base that on Ships like the USS Enterpirse (CVN 65) who have seen 50 years of service already and were built based on tech 5.x technology ..with upgrades since (hull laid down in 1958 and was fully commissiond in 1961..)
With another 10 year overhaul the enterpirse could serve another decade or so ..easy ..however her technology and capacity for upgrade have been left in the dust and she is due to be replaced by the USS Ford ..( a tech 8.x vessel) The Sao Paula ..a Brazillian carrier that was originally commissiond the Foch le Clem in 1963 (48 years old ..tech 5.x) ..The INS Verat Commisioned in 1953..the B52H sries ..bomber last of which was commisioned in 1961 ..over 100 of them are still on active duty ..
So we are showing tech 5/6 large vessles to have a 60 year usefull service life ..it only stands to reason that USS New Jersey (BB63) Commisioned in 1943 retired in 1991 after 48 broken years of service..currently a museum ship
I forsee any ship built at tech 10 to have 100 years of usefull service life and any ship built at tech 15 to have 150 years usefull service..
making he 40 year mortgage on a ship look more appealing..
Yes, yes & yes. It doesn't cover base spending budgets but does have a section (or 2?) on the importance of bases and an overview on Depot's. It steers clear of budgets full stop.
You will enjoy the read, no doubt you won't agree with it all, but its a good primer for one vision of how the Imperial Fleet works. Obviously I've adopted it warts & all (and there ain't that many warts).
Obviously this will be based on something, can you elaborate on maintaining starships at shipyards of a lower tech than the ship. ta.
I tried to find an answe in TCS, but unfortunately found the opposite to that
Starport Repairs says that no starport may repair a ship's system of higher TL than the starport's TL.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Repairs are vastly different than routine maintenance folks. We are talking about replacing an old, worn jump coil with one from stores, not replacing a battle damaged jump drive.
You cannot repair at a lower tech level. Not the same as routine maintenance.
You cannot repair at a lower tech level. Not the same as routine maintenance.
Annual maintenance takes two weeks at any Class A or B starport. Note that (IIRC) the details of such maintenance (as well as peacetime replacements) is ignored in TCS. You don't even have to shedule time for your ships to spend at any shipyard. You just have to pay those 10% per year.
As Pendragonman points out, repairs (and wartime replacements) is different.
Hans
One other thing to consider when mapping out your fleet is about 20% of your tonnage needs to be auxilliares ..(Tenders, refuelers, repair vessels , tugs , salvage vessels, supply ships etc..a fleet has to have logistical support or its toast outside of its home systems. Most of these functions can be combined easily into a single class of vessel and it do not have to travell as fast as the fleet..they just have to be able to travell ..(ie make them jump 2 if your main fleet is jump 3 etc..) rember since its a subsector fleet and dosent have as far to go it can be jump-2 or 3 fleet saving yourself tons of space for additional weapons etc..
They're the types of ships I'm primarily looking fiorward to constructing!
You're pretty much on your own when it comes to numbers, though. The existing rules for logistics are pretty much to pay 10% maintenance. I've always thought that a good case could be made for auxiliaries coming out of that figure (Well... not tankers and assault troop transports, but the transports moving supplies from where they're created to where they're expended, personnel back and forth, hospital transports, etc.). Which, if I'm right, would mean that the proportional cost of logistics could be somewhat bigger for a subsector-sized polity with 30-40 worlds than for a typical TCS polity with one mainworld and a few colonies within one jump. And a lot bigger for the Imperium.
Which wouldn't be a bad thing, IMO, since it would reduce the money available for the combat vessels (In fact, that's how I rationalize that the Imperial Navy seems to have only half the combat vessels the figures imply it should have). The devil is in the details, though. How many transports does it take to service a base? That would depend on how big a base, how many ships it services, and how far it was from the nearest source of supply.
Hans
And thinking more generically than just TCS, can be done by the crew with parts sourced from earlier stops. Yep, I'm good with that.
Hi,
I use modified Striker book 2 with half the Budget for the space fleet (and half for the ground and panetary defence forces) and size the fleet at about 6 times the annual budget. I allow 20% of the budget for spare parts and munitions spend and another 20% for repalcement ships, so the Navy maintenance at 10% per ship takes up about 60% of the Naval budget.
Kind Regards
David
I use modified Striker book 2 with half the Budget for the space fleet (and half for the ground and panetary defence forces) and size the fleet at about 6 times the annual budget. I allow 20% of the budget for spare parts and munitions spend and another 20% for repalcement ships, so the Navy maintenance at 10% per ship takes up about 60% of the Naval budget.
Kind Regards
David
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I have never run real numbers on the requirements for a tanker fleet than can provide this service to a realistic battle fleet.
However, in HG2, I have designed around a hundred vessels by hand. I know roughly what volumes are left over for J-3 and J-4 vessels. The modern Imperial fleet is J-4, so J-4 tankers would be required. A million dTon J-4 tanker would have around 200,000 dTons of volume for tankage after other requirements (give or take a few tens of thousands of dTons).
For one squadron of eight Kokkirak's, it's 480,000 dTons of fuel to allow another J-4 away from battle, so about three million ton tankers.
It certainly seems like around one-third of the budget is correct.
So, operating these tankers allows your fleet to jump out of danger. The trouble is, when your fleet runs into the the fleet that isn't using this many tankers, it's going to be bigger and meaner, thus making the need for your fleet to jump away that more real. I guess you have to hope your fleet elements somehow run into enemy fleet elements with fewer battle vessels.
The problem is actually reversed. The Monster fleet you describe without tankers has to follow predictable routes (ie: system refueling points it can capture quickly) and stay & fight. Retreat is not an option untill fuel is secured. After only a couple of battles vs high pop world Home Defence Fleets (Monster Jump fleet vs Monster Non-Jump Fleet) the Monster Fleet will stop.
Meantime the Fleet with tankers has many Strategic options. The one it does not pick is the toe to toe slugging match unless it likes the odds.
Instead you raid the En Fleet to destroy Escorts & damage BB's. Raid supply routes, looking for Couriers, Tankers and BB's returning for repairs. Raid the En home systems to destroy SDB's and cause concern for Home World safety. These and more are much, much easier when you know you will get your Fleet back.
If you send a Fleet in without Tanker support, you know that at some point you will not secure your fuel source. After 3-12 weeks your Monster Fleet will die from lack of life support. And once your fleet is gone, its game over. It may be quicker than that, news that your Fleet is stuck travels fast, expect angry visitors at home
PS. A Tanker can dedicate around 80% or more of its tonnage to fuel. Much, much less if you give it armour, agility, defences and weapons.
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