Cover and the difficulty of ranged combat

[ddamant]

My boys and I were playing around the other day with ranged combat (have not really rolled dice mechanics in a long time). It struck me then that hitting anyone in ranged combat can be quite a feat for the average mortal.

Most combats are at medium range, 5-50m. Pistols have a resounding poor chance of hitting at this range. Add in cover (-1 to -4 depending on what it is) and with even no armor a revolver is anywhere from -3 to -6 to hit. Add in armor values and pistols become quite useless at anything except short/close range. Perhaps I am missing something? It would seem an average man/solider would struggle to hit, especially since there is no "aim" action to improve accuracy (unless one uses telescopic/electronic sights, which for pistols are useless). Perhaps everyone in the Far Future uses Submachineguns?

Question 1: As a Referee how do you handle cover with a map-less/miniature-less game system? Abstract? Fiat (say a room with various trappings allows cover if one so wishes)? How do you reconcile this with a simultaneous combat system?

Question 2: Are most of your ranged combats close or at a distance? Do you find they draw out with most shots missing? Or are they fast and deadly? Or, perhaps non-existent?

 

[Brandon C]

Most combats are at medium range, 5-50m. Pistols have a resounding poor chance of hitting at this range. Add in cover (-1 to -4 depending on what it is) and with even no armor a revolver is anywhere from -3 to -6 to hit. Add in armor values and pistols become quite useless at anything except short/close range. Perhaps I am missing something?

Yes. Pistols are terribly inaccurate. There is a reason the M-1 carbine was a tremendous upgrade over the M-1911A1.

It would seem an average man/solider would struggle to hit, especially since there is no "aim" action to improve accuracy (unless one uses telescopic/electronic sights, which for pistols are useless). Perhaps everyone in the Far Future uses Submachineguns?

A carbine would be adequate at that range.

Question 1: As a Referee how do you handle cover with a map-less/miniature-less game system? Abstract? Fiat (say a room with various trappings allows cover if one so wishes)? How do you reconcile this with a simultaneous combat system?

I describe a scene in a sentence or two. This will suggest cover that should be present. I'll take suggestions from players if it seems appropriate.

Question 2: Are most of your ranged combats close or at a distance? Do you find they draw out with most shots missing? Or are they fast and deadly? Or, perhaps non-existent?

Close or medium, with weapon appropriate to range.

 

[ddamant]

Even a carbine though is -2 to hit at medium range. That seems rather strange for a rifle. A naked man in cover gives the shooter a -4 to hit at 6 meters.

 

[Supplement Four]

Perhaps I am missing something? It would seem an average man/solider would struggle to hit, especially since there is no "aim" action to improve accuracy (unless one uses telescopic/electronic sights, which for pistols are useless). Perhaps everyone in the Far Future uses Submachineguns?

Let's see...

Average human with Revolver-1 skill. DEX 7. Target is at Medium Range, wearing no armor.

DMs
-----
+0 for DEX
+1 for Revolver skill
+1 for No Armor
-3 for Medium Range

That's 2D -1 for 8+ = 28% chance to hit. Remember, Medium Range is 50 meters. So that target could be over 164 feet away. That's quite a distance with pistol.



Throw in cover (which is a flat -4 DM in the TB if the character qualifies for the modifier).

DMs
-----
+0 for DEX
+1 for Revolver skill
+1 for No Armor
-3 for Medium Range
-4 for Partial Cover

That's 2D -5 for 8+ = 0% chance to hit. At 164 feet away, under partial cover, I can see that, too.





I see that as reasonable. He needs to be more skilled with the weapon in order to be able to have any chance at all of scoring a hit.

The revolver does 3D damage, though. Using the First Blood rule, if he hits, he'll probably take the target out (unconscious most likely).

Question 1: As a Referee how do you handle cover with a map-less/miniature-less game system? Abstract? Fiat (say a room with various trappings allows cover if one so wishes)? How do you reconcile this with a simultaneous combat system?

I just use my judgement. The TB says that cover is: The character is 100% behind something solid and cannot attack. If he leans out of cover to attack, he is partially covered, and the -4 DM is used to attack him.

If a person is leaning around a wall, his head is exposed, his shoulder, his firing arm and maybe some of his torso, if using a pistol. There's a lot more of the attacker outside of cover if using a rifle--maybe 100% for a short time. The Ref can either say, for the rounds that a rifle is used and the character attacks, he's is 100% exposed and gets no benefit from cover. It takes a pistol to get the partial cover modifier.

If crouching behind a car, for example, then if standing and firing over the top of it, the -4 DM applies to both pistol and rifle. This is all in my estimation, of course.

Question 2: Are most of your ranged combats close or at a distance? Do you find they draw out with most shots missing? Or are they fast and deadly? Or, perhaps non-existent?

Short and Medium range are used most of the time. Just think about the extreme length of each range category. Can targets get 50m out? If so, then Medium range is the way to go. If not, then how about 5 meters out? Then, the range is Short.





THE COMBAT ROUND

I use the Combat Procedure Chart on page 34 of TTB. I will handle things in that order. For this example, let's say that neither side is surprised.

I also always use the Typical Actions rule.





1. Typically, I will describe the situation first to give the players an idea of what is happening. "OK, you guys are unloading the freight, when you hear a snap of a branch--as if someone stepped on it. You look in that direction, and there are three men walking into the clearing, each carrying large weapons--rifles or shotguns--moving toward you."

Then, I will answer any quick questions, if the players have them. I might give them more description of their clothes, how the weapons are being held, range, and so forth, if asked.

2. The players will tell me generally what they are going to do, but I'm flexible and do allow them to change actions as the round goes on.

3. I break down what the players are doing into two Typical Actions, one Action and one Movement, or just one Action if not moving.

4. I will look to see if any character, NPC or PC can effect the other. For example, if a PC starts running, and nobody chases him or fires at him, then he will not be effected by the NPCs during the round. OTOH, if a PC is firing at an NPC, then that could obviously effect that person.

5. I try to do all the movement first, but it's not always possible.

6. In the most logical order, I will play out the characters. I will group characters together and play them all at once. "OK, A fires at B. B evades. And, C fires at A."

Then, I will play out all the characters who aren't effected by others.

I do this is a cinematic way. I think, in my mind's eye, what it would look like if it were being film. I take the characters around the combat round as if what they see is the camera lens.

7. Then, the round is done. Damage takes effect. And, we move to the next round.

 

[Enoki]

(House rule):

One way to fix this is allow a "critical hit" / "lucky shot" to occur in such circumstances.

If you roll an 11 or 12 naturally, and then can roll a second 11 or 12 the weapon hits (this is about a 1% chance). It represents that one time in a hundred that you just get lucky and things work when they probably shouldn't.

If it happens resolve the damage in the normal manner for a hit.

 

[flykiller]

Question 2: Are most of your ranged combats close or at a distance? Do you find they draw out with most shots missing? Or are they fast and deadly? Or, perhaps non-existent?

the fbi did a study of street crime gunplay. they found that over a ten year period the average total number of shots fired by all parties involved was 2.7.

the army did a study of wwii infantry combat. they found that the average infantry combat encounter distance was 27 feet. not yards, feet. this started the process that led to the m16.

 

[Supplement Four]

the fbi did a study of street crime gunplay. they found that over a ten year period the average total number of shots fired by all parties involved was 2.7.

the army did a study of wwii infantry combat. they found that the average infantry combat encounter distance was 27 feet. not yards, feet. this started the process that led to the m16.

'Tis good points.

But, it's still Medium Range!

 

[Supplement Four]

@ddamant



What might be better suited to you is Snapshot, the tactical, action point version of Classic Traveller combat.

Combat rounds are still 15 seconds long. An average human has 14 Action Points.

Movement is a little more restrictive than Book 1 as the average character doesn't have enough APs to even run a range band, much less combine that with another action. It takes 16 APs to run 25 meters in a straight line, without facing changes.

But, this system allows for more realistic actions. Instead of one attack plus movement in a single 15 second combat round, an average character could just stand in place and make 3 Snapshot attacks at a -2 DM and still have 2 AP left over to move 2 squares (3 meters).

Or, the average character can make an aimed attack (no penalty to hit) and move 6 squares (9 meters).

Characters aren't always moving the same length. It depends on their DEX and END and the number of APs that they have.

Every action has a cost. The rules are extremely simple and mesh with the Book 1 combat system.

Actions are handled in a general order like this: Make a list of each character's AP total, going from lowest to highest. Lowest AP character moves first, giving the advantage to those with her AP (they see what he is doing). A character can always be pre-empted by another character, lower on the list, with a higher AP total (that is, the higher AP character can decide to go before an other character with a lower AP total).

The rules cover facing, diagonal movement, regular movement, running, sidestepping and backstepping opening doors and such, reloading, sneaking, aiming, snapshots, cover, line of sight, plus all the Book 1 (and some TTB) combat rules.

Once you play the system a few times, you start to memorize the point cost so that you don't have to look. There's only x amount of actions, so when starting, it's easy to just make a cost sheet for the players.

You play it on a grid, where each square represents 1.5m on a side. This is no coincidence that Traveller recommends that size of square for deckplans.

There's some neat rules that can be imported to standard Traveller combat, too, like hand grenades, tranqs, busting down doors, weapon length effects, breaching walls, zero-G combat, etc.

There's also a system for Ref's to use to quickly roll up characters for Snapshot, rather than going through Book 1 or Supplement 4. I suggest it's a great system for quickly generating NPCs.

 

[Condottiere]

Between the pistol and the carbine is the personal defence weapon.

The idea is that troops not normally confronted with close range combat have a more or less effective, but diminutive, personal weapon to fend off assailants, especially when the enemy can pop up everywhere.

 

[aramis]

Between the pistol and the carbine is the personal defence weapon.

The idea is that troops not normally confronted with close range combat have a more or less effective, but diminutive, personal weapon to fend off assailants, especially when the enemy can pop up everywhere.

SMGs also (now) fall in between carbine and pistols. Weapons like the Ingram Mach-10, Uzi, Galil, and CZ 75 smg variant the CZ is essentially a full auto pistol with a suppressor mount and a stock lug. The Uzi and Galil pd-smgs are snub carbines with wire or folding stocks.

Col Steiner propsed a 5" barrel and short stock options for the Steiner Weapon System as the PDW version.

 

[Timerover51]

I am not sure I would agree that the pistol is a terribly inaccurate weapon. There is a considerable amount of evidence from the days to the Western gunfighters to the contrary. Then there is the case of Sergeant York. Various miscreatants are shot on a regular basis by police armed with pistols, although is some cases a fair amount of ammunition is expended. The problem is the way the combat tables in Classic are constructed, and restricted by the 2D6 roll structure.

The issues of armor values and how they should be treated is a separate issue.

 

[creativehum]

the fbi did a study of street crime gunplay. they found that over a ten year period the average total number of shots fired by all parties involved was 2.7.

the army did a study of wwii infantry combat. they found that the average infantry combat encounter distance was 27 feet. not yards, feet. this started the process that led to the m16.

'Tis good points.

But, it's still Medium Range!

If 8 meters is the average then distribution to get 8 meters suggests most encounters are going to be at less than 8 meters... So mostly Short range.

Also, I was just the gym and had 45 minutes to root about about the internet while on the elliptical for studies and articles about pistols, accuracy, ranges and so on.

Police miss their target 70% of the time; police encounters with pistols usually start at 6 meters or less; gunfights in the west were often at close ranges; gunfights at distances (a rare occurrence) would involve each man emptying his revolver and maybe not hitting his target at all. (The myths of the western gunfighter was a whole new subject I had never taken the time to look at before.) Most write-ups I read of pistols in military situations describe them as defensive weapons to be used when your rifle is out of ammo and the enemy is closing on you.

All in all, what I read allows me to decide Miller's tables are just fine.

 

[Timerover51]

S. L. A. Marshall, in is report on Infantry Operations in Korea, makes the following statements.

RANGESThe average effective infantry fire with weapons lighter than the machine gun was consistently less than 200 yards. In no instance was it established, in the operations brought under survey, that any significant move by enemy forces had been stopped and turned by rifle and carbine fire alone at ranges in excess of that figure. Page 8

The Marines who were under siege at Koto-ri through the early days of December told of their effort to pick off Chinese riflemen who in broad daylight would stroll to within 300-350 yards of the armed camp or walk in the open to a stream bed to draw water. They found the targets far more elusive than they had expected. Page 8

The equation alters radically as soon as automatic fire, either from the BAR or the LMG, is added to the rifle volume. The killing-stopping zone then lengthens anywhere from 200 to 400 yards, depending upon the number of automatic weapons, the ability of the gunners, the governing terrain conditions, the weather, visibility, and general situation. Page 8

Those ranges are considerably in excess of 27 feet. If the individual claiming this is reported in an U.S: Army study would like to perhaps supply the title and location of the study, rather than simply making a statement, it would be helpful to check the accuracy of said study, and the conditions under which is was made. I will be more than willing to post Marshall's Study for free download to DriveThruRPG for anyone's interesting perusal.

 

[flykiller]

If the individual claiming this is reported in an U.S: Army study would like to perhaps supply the title and location of the study, rather than simply making a statement, it would be helpful to check the accuracy of said study, and the conditions under which is was made.

I'll try, but it was quite some time ago.

 

[Condottiere]

Up close and really personal, it would have to be a snub pistol with a fat HEAP.

You can't miss and you want each shot to take down an assailant.

A pistol at greater range is more to keep your assailant at bay, since your immediate reaction once you see any gun pointed at you and fired is to duck; and there is a possibility you can still get wounded.

Pournelle foresaw body armour and battle rifles, with range and punching power. Modern electronics will help with accuracy.

Between the gauss rifle and the snub pistol, there's going to be some compromise, possibly several.

 

[Supplement Four]

COMBAT ROUND ORDER


Adapting an idea from another game that I love to play, here's how simultaneous combat could be played.

You look for characters who interact in some way with another and figure out the order with them. Those that don't interact, just describe what they do, or have them roll their tasks whenever.

When you've got a situation where a character's actions may affect another--say in this situation:

Alnae walks and then fires at Bester.

Bester fires at Alnae then ducks under cover.

Chessna flips the switch, turning the lights out.



So, using the Typical Actions method, you break all the characters up into two actions, usually Move then Act, but sometimes it's Act then Move.

What happens in segment one? Alnae walks. Bester fires at Alnae. And Chessna turns off the lights.

Alnae rolls 2D + modifier (mod is DEX/5, drop fractions). Total 12.

Bester is usual Combat task roll. Total 8.

Chessna rolls 2D + modifier (mod is DEX/5, drop fractions). Total 9.



This means, move Alnae first--he complete his move.

Next, Chessna turns off the lights.

Lastly, Bester shoots Alnae (who is in his new position), but the Concealment in the darkness may modify his attack roll, which is 8.





In other words, you roll the character's tasks, but allow that roll to serve two purposes. First, it's the original purpose of the task roll--to see if Bester hit, for example.

Second, the same roll is also used for ordering the actions--for initiative, so to speak.

As with Bester's shot above, he rolled an 8 on his attack. We add in the concealment modifier for the darkness only because his total of 8 was less than Chessna's roll to flip the switch. Had Chessna rolled less, then Bester would shoot before the lights went out.

 

[kilemall]

Those ranges are considerably in excess of 27 feet. If the individual claiming this is reported in an U.S: Army study would like to perhaps supply the title and location of the study, rather than simply making a statement, it would be helpful to check the accuracy of said study, and the conditions under which is was made. I will be more than willing to post Marshall's Study for free download to DriveThruRPG for anyone's interesting perusal.

That sounds right and the Striker view of rifles seems to coincide.

ACR and Gauss are not so much bigger penetrators as burst shot longer ranged rifles.

However the ranges you quote are for rifles and carbines- pistols are another matter.

 

[Condottiere]

I can't say that I'm prescient in this field, but I suspect these factors will matter:

1. Electronic correction to the point that you'll hear a ping when the barrel is lined up correctly, and that a bullet will self correct in mid flight.

2. Improved metallurgy that will allow greater pressure and lighter materials to be used; presumably, they'll figure out better ways to handle recoil.

3. Ammunition; even if the firing platform remains stagnant, better ammunition will enhance performance.

I suspect if you do need a cheap submachinegun on standby, it's probably the Uzi, as long as you remain conscious of it's open bolt.

 

[aramis]

I can't say that I'm prescient in this field, but I suspect these factors will matter:

1. Electronic correction to the point that you'll hear a ping when the barrel is lined up correctly, and that a bullet will self correct in mid flight.

Human reaction times mean that's unlikely to be better than the sight.

2. Improved metallurgy that will allow greater pressure and lighter materials to be used; presumably, they'll figure out better ways to handle recoil.

In canon, they have; Gravitic Compensation uses AG thrusters to counter the recoil.

3. Ammunition; even if the firing platform remains stagnant, better ammunition will enhance performance.

Only to a point. There's only so much one can do to enhance a round.

I suspect if you do need a cheap submachinegun on standby, it's probably the Uzi, as long as you remain conscious of it's open bolt.

Or varians of the fully automatic pistols, like the CZ-75-Automat which was a select fire (Safe/Semi/Auto)...

Well, the CT is clearly a thompson, not an Uzi...

 

[Timerover51]

. . .
In canon, they have; Gravitic Compensation uses AG thrusters to counter the recoil. . . .

Out of sheer curiosity, how much to these weight and to what extent do they increase the bulkiness of any weapon? Also, what supplies the power for them?