Cruiser v Cruiser-rider

[Vladika]

As long as you're comparing like with like, the high end rider will always tactically outperform the ship by a significant margin...You'll usually find that with a high end/high jump combination you can field an entire squadron of riders for each individual ship.

And this is EXACTLY the counter to "not being able to divide a squadron". With BR/BT you're are fielding one SQUADRON per SHIP! You can send a whole squadron anywhere that your opponent can send one ship.

The factors counting against riders are strategic. The biggest against the traditional rider/tender combo is probably that they're pretty much good for only one thing and that's offensive operations in war. Coupled with the need for ships to cover the riders if they need to withdraw, you end up being able to spend less on your battleline because you have to buy more cruisers, escorts etc.

Good for all facets of warfare if properly escorted. Those escorts are amazingly cheap.:devil:

 

[Hal]

I've always wondered...

Why do "battle rider" fleets all have to have one size for their tenders?

One poster mentioned the use of 1 tender plus 20 cruisers, versus 12 jump capable cruisers. It was then mentioned that one could include Jump-1 in the rider design, and make it viable that way.

But what if you designed your strategy for use with one sized tender to carry 3 cruisers? What if you have a designed tender that carries 6 cruisers? In other words, in order to get the strategy concept working, think more broadly.

Now for the other thought:

It would perhaps be interesting to see the breakdown in star ports through out any given area of conflict and view what their numbers suggest.

For instance, all battle riders can be manufactured at class A and class B starports. All Cruiser class ships can only be manufactured at class A starports. That is definitely a strategic advantage worth considering, and here is why...

In a battle between two fleets, such that only 1 ship each survives - how long would it take to rebuild both fleets to full strength?

Then you have the fact that nothing says one has to build top of the line battle riders on a tender. What if you build a battle tender whose task is to bring into battle, 12 cruiser type battle riders, plus 20 Destroyer class ships as well? What if that battle tender was carrying NORMAL destroyers capable of jump 4? Imagine the strategic strength such a craft could bring to the battle front when engaging in commerce raiding? Kinda like the starburst strategy if you will, of aiming for one location, and releasing a cluster of ships capable of fast deep penetrations behind enemy lines. The worst thing about such a strategy (at first glance) is that the enemy fleet doesn't even need to refuel before a deeper penetration occurs.

 

[flykiller]

Why do "battle rider" fleets all have to have one size for their tenders?

they don't all have to be one size. for example in my fleet there are tech15 and tech12 transports because of shipyard availability, but they have the same strategic/tactical tasking.

but there are considerations.

1) tech12 limits hull size
2) bigger transports have no particular survivability advantage, but losing one means more riders are stranded
3) smaller transports can be built (or rebuilt) faster
4) a transport must be of or larger than a certain size to carry significant rider(s)

all of these considerations force limitations on how small or large an effective transport can be.

 

[Vladika]

I've always wondered...

Why do "battle rider" fleets all have to have one size for their tenders?

One poster mentioned the use of 1 tender plus 20 cruisers, versus 12 jump capable cruisers. It was then mentioned that one could include Jump-1 in the rider design, and make it viable that way.

But what if you designed your strategy for use with one sized tender to carry 3 cruisers? What if you have a designed tender that carries 6 cruisers? In other words, in order to get the strategy concept working, think more broadly.

Now for the other thought:

It would perhaps be interesting to see the breakdown in star ports through out any given area of conflict and view what their numbers suggest.

For instance, all battle riders can be manufactured at class A and class B starports. All Cruiser class ships can only be manufactured at class A starports. That is definitely a strategic advantage worth considering, and here is why...

In a battle between two fleets, such that only 1 ship each survives - how long would it take to rebuild both fleets to full strength?

Then you have the fact that nothing says one has to build top of the line battle riders on a tender. What if you build a battle tender whose task is to bring into battle, 12 cruiser type battle riders, plus 20 Destroyer class ships as well? What if that battle tender was carrying NORMAL destroyers capable of jump 4? Imagine the strategic strength such a craft could bring to the battle front when engaging in commerce raiding? Kinda like the starburst strategy if you will, of aiming for one location, and releasing a cluster of ships capable of fast deep penetrations behind enemy lines. The worst thing about such a strategy (at first glance) is that the enemy fleet doesn't even need to refuel before a deeper penetration occurs.

Love the way you think! Great thought on the "slingshot" of a J4 Fleet!

As Tender pretty much costs the same per tonne, regardless of size, I build them to carry 6-8 riders (one squadron). This is about the cost of a single ship of the same, or less one Jump Number, and outnumbers it 6:1. If you encounter other riders (at roughly equal expenditure) you are facing approximately even odds.

 

[Hal]

Breakdowns of Starports by Type/Techlevel: # (I won't ask if a TL 8 A starport can build jump capable ships!)

A/15:04
A/14:02
A/13:04
A/12:07
A/11:15
A/10:05
A/09:01
A/08:02

B/15:00
B/14:01
B/13:02
B/12:01
B/11:15
B/10:15
B/09:09
B/08:11
B/07:07
B/06:05
B/05:04


This does not take into account, the population ratings for those starports, and thus, their productivity, but it does give people a chance to see (from the Imperial viewpoint), what they have to work with when fashioning their ship designs and formulating their design strategy. Something to consider...

 

[rancke]

Breakdowns of Starports by Type/Techlevel: # (I won't ask if a TL 8 A starport can build jump capable ships!)

Per definition it can. Otherwise it wouldn't be a class A starport. Perhaps the world is advanced in space technology. Or someone is importing parts and assembling them. Both explanation requires ignoring the TCS rule about the tech level of ships built on a world not exceeding its tech level.


Hans

 

[Hal]

What might be interesting, is to see whether or not TL 14 Battle riders might prove to be useful or not. Then the next step is to see what can be built using TL 11. It seems as though TL 11 outnumbers by quantity, the number of TL 15 and TL 14 star ports combined. The problem as usual, is including the Population stat where it affects production rates.

By the by?

For those who didn't know - there is a neat Excel function worth looking into when dealing with the Spinward Marches or other Traveller data sets stored on excel...

I'm sure everyone knows about the Left(), Right() and Mid() functions for separating out the values in the UWP for worlds. But what you may not know is that there is the function hex2dec that converts hexadecimal into decimal values right quick. Sure makes it simple to sort by star port type, by TL or even by Population if I wanted to.

 

[McPerth]

For instance, all battle riders can be manufactured at class A and class B starports. All Cruiser class ships can only be manufactured at class A starports. That is definitely a strategic advantage worth considering, and here is why...

While I guess most of us think in earlier versions, you must remember this is no longer true in MgT, as the limits of building for starports is by size, not if they are jump ships or not.

 

[Hal]

While I guess most of us think in earlier versions, you must remember this is no longer true in MgT, as the limits of building for starports is by size, not if they are jump ships or not.

Ahhhh ha. I didn't know that. Makes sense when you get right down to it. For years, we've had to struggle with the concept that worlds without a starport can still create jump-capable ships - without really having rules on how this is done. I've wondered in the past, why a ship's hull can't be fabricated at one location, and then have it fitted with imported drives from another location. Then Marc introduced the three types of jump field generators for ships depending on whether it was a bubble, a field, or tight fitted to the hull kind of thing. In the end, those questions just never made any real sense with regards to the answers that were thrown at the question

 

[McPerth]

In MgT, C rated strports may build small crafts (under 100 Dton), B rated ones up to spaceships (100-5000 dton) and A rated ones any ship.

Once again, pop digit has no influence on it, so, Pixie (SM 1903, A starport, Pop 1) could build a capital ship (over 5000 dton), while Suffren (Diaspora 2004, B starport, pop 9) can only build ships up to 5000 dton...

 

[rancke]

Once gain, pop digit has no influence on it, so, Pixie (SM 1903, A starport, Pop 1) could build a capital ship (over 5000 dton)...

Now where's that barf smiley when you need it?

Oh well, I guess :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: will have to do.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

In MgT, C rated strports may build small crafts (under 100 Dton), B rated ones up to spaceships (100-5000 dton) and A rated ones any ship.

Once again, pop digit has no influence on it, so, Pixie (SM 1903, A starport, Pop 1) could build a capital ship (over 5000 dton), while Suffren (Diaspora 2004, B starport, pop 9) can only build ships up to 5000 dton...

I guess I could build an Ark by myself too, though it would probably take a very long time.

 

[Drakon]

Now where's that barf smiley when you need it?

Oh well, I guess :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: will have to do.


Hans

Robots?

Maybe it is a world run by a Mr. Universe kind of guy with an army of robots who build the ships.

 

[Hal]

For what it is worth, I suspect that I won't be using the concepts given in MgT with regards to starports and all that fun stuff. However, it doesn't mean that others can't

I tend to look at starports and populations combined, because those are what you look at to see what the shipyard capacity is capable of producing for any given shipyard. Having a class A starport with only 50 people should not be producing 1 million dTons of shipping construction per month as compared to perhaps a world with a pop rating of 10 and an A starport.

While automation is a biggie in the real world, Traveller for some reason, seemed to want to avoid the use of robots. Me? I leave well enough alone on the premise that too much automation results in a population that has no sustainable income (ie lacking jobs) while too little automation results in products that are precise in their manufacture where precision counts. <shrug>