CT Azhanti Deck Plan Accuracy
- Thread starter far-trader
- Start date
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Thanks Fox and Savage, I'd have been happier if I'd been able to squeeze it hard enough to fit in the original 60Kt 
I was so close there at one point, until I noticed a couple more oversights. At that point I gave up and went bigger rather than blow a gasket
I could have done it in HG 1st ed and probably got it, but then it'd still have been wrongish so I chose the lesser wrong :smirk:
Of course every time I do something like this I wonder why the hell I do :nonono:
I'm not sure it really adds much to the game. It would for my game IF I had one going that used it. I guess it fills a few hours with some interest for me. And it always starts out fun...
I was so close there at one point, until I noticed a couple more oversights. At that point I gave up and went bigger rather than blow a gasket
I could have done it in HG 1st ed and probably got it, but then it'd still have been wrongish so I chose the lesser wrong :smirk:
Of course every time I do something like this I wonder why the hell I do :nonono:
I'm not sure it really adds much to the game. It would for my game IF I had one going that used it. I guess it fills a few hours with some interest for me. And it always starts out fun...
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You're not alone FT. I love the detail and rich history of the AHL cruisers, and I like trying to "fix" the deckplans of all of the original CT ships.
I've been reading through Supplement 5 lately, and I'd like to bring up a few items for review/discussion in order to help you on your way to insa... errr, umm... achieving you design goals:
1. As you have already pointed out, the total displacement of the ship is fairly accurately reflected in the deckplans, considering that the maneuver drives, and the excess fuel (not contained in the fuel decks) are contained in the "wings" and "fin", and the fuel shuttles are mounted externally. So there really isn't a need for the fuel buffers. I would say instead that 1.5 to 3.0 meters worth of height on each deck is reserved for internal structure, life support, gravitic controls, conduits, etc.
2. Nowhere can I find in S5 where it specifically says that the AHL cruisers were TL14 until the CF upgrades, unless I missed something. So why not make them TL15 to begin with? I haven't tackled a TL15 FI version yet, but you can make a 60KdT HG2 Frontier Cruiser with all of the listed components, and still have ~300 tons left over (NOTE: I had to reduce the number of missile turrets to 100 from 120, but the missile rating stays the same, just less batteries; also, I only used two bridges: main and auxiliary).
3. The supplement states that there is only 32,000 tons of fuel, vice 33,000. Is this a typo, a HG1 thing, or was it done on purpose to allow for the extra 1000 tons necessary for a PA spinal mount I wonder?
4. I calculated a crew of about 660, which can easily fit in the 620 staterooms I put in the CF. Supp5 says that there are 620 crew members, but obviously the crew requirements will be different for each cruiser type. I would follow HG2 to the letter for all section requirements except for the Service Crew section. The impression I get from the verbiage in HG2 is that the amount of "required" crewmen in this section can be loosely interpreted.
5. Page 5 lists the Gunboats as 40 tons, but they are 20 tons throughout the rest of the supplement. The 40dT is a typo I'm sure. This messed me up initially, as I was calculating the launch tubes for 40 tons instead of 20, but I can see that your 70KdT got it right.
6. I interpret the "casual" bridge as being part of the main/auxiliary bridge displacement, rather than another bridge altogether. It still relies on the brunt of the equipment that is contained in the main or auxiliary bridge decks, it's just a more comfortable place to interface with the controls when performing routine ship operations. It would be sealed off and unused during battle. This was done in a more permanent manner in all but three of the AHL cruisers. The Scout version of the cruisers moved the main bridge controls back to this location.
Hope this helps!
-Fox
I've been reading through Supplement 5 lately, and I'd like to bring up a few items for review/discussion in order to help you on your way to insa... errr, umm... achieving you design goals:
1. As you have already pointed out, the total displacement of the ship is fairly accurately reflected in the deckplans, considering that the maneuver drives, and the excess fuel (not contained in the fuel decks) are contained in the "wings" and "fin", and the fuel shuttles are mounted externally. So there really isn't a need for the fuel buffers. I would say instead that 1.5 to 3.0 meters worth of height on each deck is reserved for internal structure, life support, gravitic controls, conduits, etc.
2. Nowhere can I find in S5 where it specifically says that the AHL cruisers were TL14 until the CF upgrades, unless I missed something. So why not make them TL15 to begin with? I haven't tackled a TL15 FI version yet, but you can make a 60KdT HG2 Frontier Cruiser with all of the listed components, and still have ~300 tons left over (NOTE: I had to reduce the number of missile turrets to 100 from 120, but the missile rating stays the same, just less batteries; also, I only used two bridges: main and auxiliary).
3. The supplement states that there is only 32,000 tons of fuel, vice 33,000. Is this a typo, a HG1 thing, or was it done on purpose to allow for the extra 1000 tons necessary for a PA spinal mount I wonder?
4. I calculated a crew of about 660, which can easily fit in the 620 staterooms I put in the CF. Supp5 says that there are 620 crew members, but obviously the crew requirements will be different for each cruiser type. I would follow HG2 to the letter for all section requirements except for the Service Crew section. The impression I get from the verbiage in HG2 is that the amount of "required" crewmen in this section can be loosely interpreted.
5. Page 5 lists the Gunboats as 40 tons, but they are 20 tons throughout the rest of the supplement. The 40dT is a typo I'm sure. This messed me up initially, as I was calculating the launch tubes for 40 tons instead of 20, but I can see that your 70KdT got it right.
6. I interpret the "casual" bridge as being part of the main/auxiliary bridge displacement, rather than another bridge altogether. It still relies on the brunt of the equipment that is contained in the main or auxiliary bridge decks, it's just a more comfortable place to interface with the controls when performing routine ship operations. It would be sealed off and unused during battle. This was done in a more permanent manner in all but three of the AHL cruisers. The Scout version of the cruisers moved the main bridge controls back to this location.
Hope this helps!
-Fox
BTW, here's my HG2 CF:
Note that the costs are rough for the small craft, and I'm 2 missile batteries (20 turrets) shy.
Feel free to kick the tires.
-Fox
Code:
Azhanti High Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (Type CF)
Component Volume Cost EP
=====================================================================
Hull - close structure (4), partial stml 60000 3600 0
Jump-5, (TL14) -3600 14400 0
Maneuver-2, (TL7) -3000 2100 0
Power Plant-5, (TL15) -3000 9000 3000
Jump Fuel -30000 0 0
Power Plant Fuel -3000 0 0
Fuel scoops 0 60 0
Fuel purification plant, (TL15) -495 4.95 0
Main bridge -1200 300 0
Auxiliary bridge -1200 300 0
Model/6fib x3, (TL12) -42 249 -15
Armor-5, (TL14) -3600 2880 0
Meson-N spinal mount, (TL15) -2000 600 -1000
24x 50-ton PA-5 bays, (TL14) -1200 480 -720
100x triple beam turrets, 10 batt-9 -100 225 -300
40x double fusion turrets, 4 batt-9 -80 160 -160
100x triple sandcaster turrets, 10 batt-9 -100 75 0
100x triple missile turrets, 10 batt-7 -100 225 0
Nuclear damper-5, (TL14) -10 35 -50
Meson screen-6, (TL14) -24 50 -720
Black globe generator-2, (TL15) -15 600 0
60x 15-ton Fighters, 6 squadrons -1170 1080 0
5x 20-ton Gunboats -130 72 0
4x 400-ton Fuel Shuttles, external -1600 800 0
2x 20-ton capacity launch tubes -1000 2 0
620x staterooms -2480 310 0
310x low berths -155 15.5 0
Cargo (2x 200) -400 0 0
Waste space -299 0 0
Totals 0 37624 35 leftNote that the costs are rough for the small craft, and I'm 2 missile batteries (20 turrets) shy.
Feel free to kick the tires.
-Fox
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
The Imperium didn't reach TL-15 till c.1000, decades after the ships were designed.
And just to toss a wrench around the engine room...
I was looking at the write-up in Supplement 9, and the stats there don't match Supplement 5. It is identified as the upgraded Frontier Cruiser, but it lists the USP of the Fleet Intruder (with 8 squadrons instead of 6). It also contains the same incorrect allocation of hardpoints as S5. Grrrrr!
Well S5 pre-dates S9, so I'll stick with that.
-Fox
I was looking at the write-up in Supplement 9, and the stats there don't match Supplement 5. It is identified as the upgraded Frontier Cruiser, but it lists the USP of the Fleet Intruder (with 8 squadrons instead of 6). It also contains the same incorrect allocation of hardpoints as S5. Grrrrr!
Well S5 pre-dates S9, so I'll stick with that.
-Fox
OK, so assuming that the original FI's were built at TL15 (which may not have been possible), and using 32,000dT fuel volume, here's my HG2 FI:
Note that the prices are rough and I had to reduce the number of sandcaster batteries to satisfy the HG rules.
Also, the "waste space" may account for the casual bridge, which comes in at around 300dT.
-Fox
Code:
Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser - Fleet Intruder (Type FI)
Component Volume Cost EP
====================================================================
Hull-close structure (4), partial strml 60000 3600 0
Jump drive-5 (TL14) 3600 14400 0
Maneuver drive-2 (TL7) 3000 2100 0
Power plant-5 (TL15) 3000 9000 3000
Jump fuel 30000 0 0
Power plant fuel, 20 days operation 2000 0 0
Fuel scoops 0 60 0
Fuel purification plant (TL15) 480 4.8 0
Main bridge 1200 300 0
Auxiliary bridge 1200 300 0
Computer Model/6fib (x3) 42 249 15
Armor factor-5 (TL15) 3600 2880 0
Particle Accelerator-N (TL14) 3000 1000 900
24x 50-ton missile bays, 24 batt-9 1200 288 0
100x triple sandcaster turrets, 10 batt-9 100 75 0
190x triple beam laser turrets, 19 batt-9 190 190 570
40x double fusion turrets, 4 batt-9 80 160 160
Meson screen-6 (TL14) 24 50 720
Nuclear damper-5 (TL14) 10 35 50
60x 15-ton Fighters 1170 1080 0
5x 20-ton Gunboats 130 100 0
4x 400-ton Fuel Shuttles (external) 1600 800 0
2x 20-ton capacity launch tubes 1000 2 0
620x staterooms 2480 310 0
310x low berths 155 15.5 0
2x 200-ton cargo bays 400 0 0
Waste space 339 0 0
Totals 60000 36999.3 2415Note that the prices are rough and I had to reduce the number of sandcaster batteries to satisfy the HG rules.
Also, the "waste space" may account for the casual bridge, which comes in at around 300dT.
-Fox
Theophilus
SOC-13
My Two Credits:
S9 Says TL14
I sat down last night and quickly roughed out a TL15 Azhanti, using 10 ton light fighters it all fits. Barely.
I'll look closer tonight.
S9 Says TL14
I sat down last night and quickly roughed out a TL15 Azhanti, using 10 ton light fighters it all fits. Barely.
I'll look closer tonight.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
MT RC p34.
Indeed it does; however, there are several glaring inconsistencies.
- S9 says the ship carries 80 fighters (vice 60). The USP (and indeed the description) indicates that it should be for the Frontier Cruiser (CF), but the profile is for a HG2 Fleet Intruder (FI).
- The number of laser batteries bearing in the S9 listing is incorrect.
- S9 lists 80 pilots, presumably for the 80 fighters, but where are the other small craft pilots? S5 lists 75 pilots.
- The stats in S9 indicate that there are 155 low berths, but S5 says that there are enough low berths for the 310-member frozen watch.
- S9 only lists one Model/6fib, while S5 specifically calls out that there are three Model/6fib's.
- The S9 price at the top of the stat block doesn't match the price in the description (yeah, I'm just nit-picking now
).
It just seems a lot easier than the Supp9 version to make a TL15 Supp5 version fit in a 60kdT hull. And given how many issues there are with the Supp9 entry, I'd rather reference Supp5.
The only difference that the TL14-TL15 leap makes is that it reduces the size of the power plant. Perhaps the "Twin Quadric Halonic" fusion power plants are a TL15 "bonus" for the AHL; sort of a cutting edge technology ready for installation and testing on the Imperial Navy's latest and greatest line of vessels.
-Fox
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I was hoping you had a CT reference.
-Fox
Just off the top of my head (back for more detailed look at all the help later
) I thought one of the CT versions did have it listed somewhere at TL14, either S5 or S9. Could be I'm misremembering.Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Maybe it's all in that little letter 'c'?
I think Foxroe's idea of a cutting edge power plant could hold water, but I know naff all about canon ship design, so I'll butt out.
Maybe it's all in that little letter 'c'?
I think Foxroe's idea of a cutting edge power plant could hold water, but I know naff all about canon ship design, so I'll butt out.
Unfortunately, my idea is not "canon" (at least I can find no justification in the CT body of work), but it's the only way I can resolve making the AHL cruisers fit into CT without altering the USP's (which I dread to touch for fear of being labeled a heretic
).-Fox
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hey again, another post and dash...
Fox, I had a look and TL14 is listed to the right of the USP in S9 for the AHL.
Still haven't had time to sit at the screen and digest the recent posts, but I'm gonna snag a printout of them now and look it over when I can. If you managed to do it in 60Kt I may need to look at mine again. I know I was close a couple times but kept finding stuff I forgot. Not saying you did (a quick looks didn't spot anything amiss), but maybe I screwed up in mine. I'd love to get it back to 60Kt.
And a funny thing happened on the way to the deckplans a few days ago, I thought I'd throw T20 design rules at it just to see. Oddly it looks to be closer to 60Kt and still in the spirit of the original but with a couple oddities. I was surprised because while T20 is pretty much HG there are some power differences that usually break my old HG designs one way or another (usually a sacrifice of either energy weapons or agility).
Anyway, gotta grab that printout and run, catch ya all later.
Fox, I had a look and TL14 is listed to the right of the USP in S9 for the AHL.
Still haven't had time to sit at the screen and digest the recent posts, but I'm gonna snag a printout of them now and look it over when I can. If you managed to do it in 60Kt I may need to look at mine again. I know I was close a couple times but kept finding stuff I forgot. Not saying you did (a quick looks didn't spot anything amiss), but maybe I screwed up in mine. I'd love to get it back to 60Kt.
And a funny thing happened on the way to the deckplans a few days ago, I thought I'd throw T20 design rules at it just to see. Oddly it looks to be closer to 60Kt and still in the spirit of the original but with a couple oddities. I was surprised because while T20 is pretty much HG there are some power differences that usually break my old HG designs one way or another (usually a sacrifice of either energy weapons or agility).
Anyway, gotta grab that printout and run, catch ya all later.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
A memory is trying to surface of just such a canon cite, but it's still just a feeling, nothing concrete
FT: Take your time! Like I said, I had to cheat a little...
My goal was to use HG2 to make the AHL fit into 60kT, and not change the USP, and not contradict S5 (too much).
I know S9 says TL14, I just can't completely trust it due to all of the other mistakes in that entry. I'll chalk it up to clerical error at the Imperial Navy Bureau of Ships.
-Fox
My goal was to use HG2 to make the AHL fit into 60kT, and not change the USP, and not contradict S5 (too much
).I know S9 says TL14, I just can't completely trust it due to all of the other mistakes in that entry. I'll chalk it up to clerical error at the Imperial Navy Bureau of Ships.
-Fox
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Well, finally got this more or less presentable. As noted a quick T20 design of the AHL taunted me with the possibility of doing it in 60Ktons, and then Fox posted his rework in 60Ktons. It was too much, I'd been close so I had to try one more time, I really wasn't happy with having to go to 70Ktons. And guess what, I think I've managed to do it, to my satisfaction. Much credit goes to Fox for challenging me and showing it could be done. So here's my final alternative take on fixing it. Hopefully without errors and acceptable fudges...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Code:
HG2 reengineered design of S5/S9 AHL by Journeyman Design Bureau
Azhanti High Lightning class Fleet Intruder TL14
FI - P4525F3 - 596500 - 99N09 - 6 MCr44,140.304
+60,000 tons Hull - C4 Close Structure
Partially Streamlined
-3,600 tons Armor - F5
-3,600 tons Jump Drive - J5
-3,000 tons Maneuver Drive - 2G (1)
-3,000 tons Power Plant - P5 +3,000 EP (2)
-30,000 tons Jump Fuel x 5 parsecs
-3,000 tons Power Plant Fuel x 4 weeks (3)
Fuel Scoops
-600 tons Fuel Purifiers (4)
-1,200 tons Main Bridge (5)
-14 tons Computer M/6 FIB -5 EP
-1,200 tons Auxiliary Bridge
Casual Bridge
-3,000 tons Spinal Weapon - PA FN -900 EP (6)
1 Battery
-1,200 tons Bay Weapons - Missile F9 (7)
24 Batteries (19 Bearing)
-190 tons Triple Turrets - Beam F9 -570 EP (8)
19 Batteries (15 Bearing)
-80 tons Double Turrets - Fusion F9 -160 EP
4 Batteries (3 Bearing)
-100 tons Triple Turrets - Sand F9
10 Batteries (8 Bearing)
-10 tons Nuclear Damper - F5 -50 EP (9)
-24 tons Meson Screen - F6 -720 EP
-1,417 tons Small Craft Hanger x2 (A)
15 ton craft x66 (31/35)
20 ton craft x5 (4/1)
-1,000 tons Launch Tubes x2 (B)
20 ton craft capacity
-1,760 tons External Large Craft x4
400 ton craft x4
-1,450 tons Quarters x362.5 Staterooms (C)
Officers x105 Rooms
Enlisted x515 Bunks
-155 tons Lowberths x310
Frozen Watch
-400 tons Cargo Holds x2
Price does not include discount, auxiliary craft, ordnance, or supplies.(2) had to go with a fudge (big fix) here to fit it in the hull, the TL14 Power Plant should be 6,000 tons, at TL15 it would be 3,000 tons, note that in HG first edition (which I suspect is to blame) Power Plants were a flat 0.01MPn which would also result in a 3,000 ton Power Plant even at TL14, so the ship makes do with a special TL14 (to conform to canon) Power Plant operating at double output, this requires twice the normal Engineering crew (so it’s calculated at 6,000 tons for crew requirements and cost, as already done) but takes up less space, it’s a cutting edge design, not quite a TL15 fully debugged Power Plant, but still better than a standard TL13-14 Power Plant
(3) not the S5 listed 2,000 tons (corrected in S9), while most of the fuel is in the main deck body some is in the wings
(4) had to go with 600 tons (good for the full jump fuel rating) aboard and 60 tons (required for the power plant fuel) aboard the fuel shuttles (20 tons per provides one extra for rotation)
(5) the text describes three bridges (main, auxiliary, and casual) as well as a triple redundant computer installation, HG doesn’t allow extra computers though, and there isn’t enough room for three bridges, so I made the casual bridge just an extension (out of common space) of the main bridge, i.e. it doesn’t count but increases the vulnerability, see below for program notes
(6) the later swapped in meson gun is not a perfect fit, it’s smaller (2000 tons) but needs more energy (1000 EP), but there is power to spare and the extra room is not a problem
(7) leaving only 330 hard points for turrets, not the S9 listed 350 hard points, see the choices I made to fix that below
(8) the turrets are as listed except for the Sand which I cut back to just 10 Batteries to fit the correct hard point total
(9) so little tonnage I’d be tempted to have some backups, if there were any room, and I’d make the later retrofitted BG generator a replacement for the Nuclear Damper, so it’d be a 10 ton F1 instead of the 15 ton F2 to make some sense to me
(A) per the listing of 66 small craft (60 active fighters and 6 replacements instead of the 5 gunboats listed) in S5, made the gunboats extra, though it says the gunboats are 40 tons in one place and 20 tons in another it has to be 20 tons for the launch tubes, included basic launch facilities (6 total) for the 4 fuel shuttles and 1 per hanger
(B) it should be 20 ton craft capacity for the 20 ton gunboats
(C) 105 officers with single staterooms and 515 enlisted in shared staterooms/bunk rooms, and 310 lowberths for the frozen watch
Price comes out close to the book. Close enough not knowing how they actually made it work or what they included in the price.
Code:
Computer Programming Notes:
Azhanti High Lightning class Fleet Intruder - model/6fib - 15/35
Basic Package (value MCr6.0 included free):
Maneuver/Evade 2 2 *
Navigate 1
Generate 1
Jump 1 1
Jump 2 2
Jump 3 3
Jump 4 4
Jump 5 5
Library 1
Anti-Hijack 1
Return Fire 1 *
Extra Package (value MCr18.0 added to ship cost):
Anti-Missile 2 *
ECM 3 *
Target 1 *
Launch 1 *
Battery Fire 2 * see Note 1
Multi-Target 2 1 *
Selective 3 1 *
Predict 3 1 *
Available Space 16 see Note 2
* - designates standard programs running (15 slots) for combatNote 2 - Available Space is what’s left for programs after the above requirements were met, it’s left to the user to fill this in, see post below for some ideas:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=3796
All (S)Crewed Up:
I had typed up a bit of a long rambling rant on the crewing rules and errors, but it was boring even me before I finished, so I wiped it. Instead I’ll just say it looks like the canon crewing for the AHL forgot to include the Screens crew, the non-Pilot flight crew, screwed up the Pilot flight crew numbers, and took the Troops from the general Services pool.
The easiest way to make it work was to stick to the canon 620 (per S5) crew total (though not the O/E ratio) and fudge the breakdown, as follows - 620 Total (105x Officer ranks and 515x Enlisted ranks):
Command Crew - 30
Composed of: Captain(O7-6), Executive Officer(O6-5), 3x Section Officers(O5-4),
3x Computer Officers(O3-2), 3x Senior Pilots(O4-3), 3x Senior Navigators(O3-2),
3x Communications Officers(O3-2), 3x Medical Officers(O4-3),
and 10x Administrative Aides (O1-1)
Engines Crew - 126 (not including Section Officer - see Command)
Composed of: Chief Engineer(E8), 2x Engineer Mates(E7), 36x Petty Officers(E4 to E6),
and 87x Drive Hands(E1 to E3)
Gunnery Crew - 124 (not including Section Officer - see Command)
Composed of: 5x (one per weapon type) Weapon Chiefs(E8); 3x Spinal Mount Mates(E7),
12x Spinal Mount Petty Officers(E4 to E6), 15x Spinal Mount Ratings(E1 to E3);
24x Bay Weapon Petty Officers(E4 to E6), 24x Bay Weapon Gunners(E1 to E3);
33x Turret Battery Ratings(E1 to E3); 2x Screen Mates(E7), 2x Screen Petty Officers(E4 to E6),
and 4x Screen Ratings(E1 to E3)
Fighter Crew - 75 (not including Section Officer - see Command)
Composed of: Flight Commander(O4-3), 2x Wing Commanders(O3-2), 12x Fighter Leaders(O2-1),
48x Fighter Pilots(O2-1), and 12x Fighter Electronic Officers (O1-1)
Organized as 3 Wings of 2 Squadrons each. Each Squadron is composed of 8 single seat Fighters
and 2 double seat Leaders. The Fighters are missile strike fighters with a magazine, while the
Leaders are laser defense fighters with an extra seat for electronic warfare. Squadrons can
operate split into two attack formations to present a smaller target. Total of 60 active fighter craft.
Support Crew - 265 (yet to be fully detailed)
Composed of: Security, Medical, Technical, Ordnance, Culinary, Maintenance, Cryptology,
Administration, Recruiting, Religion/Counseling, Damage Control, Intelligence, Legal, Musician,
Supplies, Postal, Life Support, Launch Tubes, Docking Clamps, Auxiliary Craft Operators,
and Fuel Handling
Frozen Watch - 310 (low berths)
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