CT Combat

[sithknight]

OK - I'm meaning the ORIGINAL combat system of LBB. Using the weapon vs. armor chart confuses me...if I get a +7 to hit someone with a (weapon? Thrasher for example) with no armor on, that makes it easier for me to hit them? i.e roll is 8+, so I only need a 1+ to hit (plus range, strength mods, etc.)???!

Or does that bonus only apply to offset other negative factors?

Also, I came up with quick & dirty cover rules:

25% = +2 DM to difficulty
50% = +4 DM
75% = +8 DM
100% = +12 DM (to represent a weapon blowing thru cover - not precise, but this is CT!)

 

[sithknight]

OK - I'm meaning the ORIGINAL combat system of LBB. Using the weapon vs. armor chart confuses me...if I get a +7 to hit someone with a (weapon? Thrasher for example) with no armor on, that makes it easier for me to hit them? i.e roll is 8+, so I only need a 1+ to hit (plus range, strength mods, etc.)???!

Or does that bonus only apply to offset other negative factors?

Also, I came up with quick & dirty cover rules:

25% = +2 DM to difficulty
50% = +4 DM
75% = +8 DM
100% = +12 DM (to represent a weapon blowing thru cover - not precise, but this is CT!)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by sithknight:
OK - I'm meaning the ORIGINAL combat system of LBB. Using the weapon vs. armor chart confuses me...if I get a +7 to hit someone with a (weapon? Thrasher for example) with no armor on, that makes it easier for me to hit them? i.e roll is 8+, so I only need a 1+ to hit (plus range, strength mods, etc.)???!

Or does that bonus only apply to offset other negative factors?

CT combat is quite simple. Look at the Combat Procedure outline and follow the steps.

CT combat is: Roll 8+ (+/- mods) to hit.

Your typical mods are:
Defender's Armor
Range to target
Skill
Stat DM


So...

A character with STR-7 swings his cutlass at someone.

He rolls 2D to hit. He's looking for 8+ to hit.

The opponent is at Short Range, and he's not wearing armor.

+0DM (no STR mod)
+4DM (Cutlass vs. nothing)
+2DM (Cutlass @ Short Range)

That's 2D +6 for 8+.

You'll automatically hit each round using a cutlass.


Thrashers are weapons that animals have, thus there are not STR mods.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by sithknight:
OK - I'm meaning the ORIGINAL combat system of LBB. Using the weapon vs. armor chart confuses me...if I get a +7 to hit someone with a (weapon? Thrasher for example) with no armor on, that makes it easier for me to hit them? i.e roll is 8+, so I only need a 1+ to hit (plus range, strength mods, etc.)???!

Or does that bonus only apply to offset other negative factors?

CT combat is quite simple. Look at the Combat Procedure outline and follow the steps.

CT combat is: Roll 8+ (+/- mods) to hit.

Your typical mods are:
Defender's Armor
Range to target
Skill
Stat DM


So...

A character with STR-7 swings his cutlass at someone.

He rolls 2D to hit. He's looking for 8+ to hit.

The opponent is at Short Range, and he's not wearing armor.

+0DM (no STR mod)
+4DM (Cutlass vs. nothing)
+2DM (Cutlass @ Short Range)

That's 2D +6 for 8+.

You'll automatically hit each round using a cutlass.


Thrashers are weapons that animals have, thus there are not STR mods.

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by WJP:
You'll automatically hit each round using a cutlass.

Just wanted to add, that's assuming your opponent is unarmed, so thus getting no parry bonus, and that the opponent is not evading.

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by WJP:
You'll automatically hit each round using a cutlass.

Just wanted to add, that's assuming your opponent is unarmed, so thus getting no parry bonus, and that the opponent is not evading.

 

[Supplement Four]

Very good point. Forgot to mention that.

 

[Supplement Four]

Very good point. Forgot to mention that.

 

[MaineCoon]

Which just goes to show: if you strike at your opponent with a big sharp weapon, they don't try to dodge, don't have anything to block it with, and aren't wearing anything protective... they're going to get seriously hurt, guaranteed.

And it didnt even need any special rules regarding that, just straight up modifiers

I'm on the wall myself regarding using straight CT rules with an armor matrix, or using rules where armor applies damage reduction to the attack.

Armor reducing damage sounds like it makes sense, on the surface. But in reality, armor either protects you or it doesn't. It may reduce the velocity, but if an arrow, bullet, or blade gets through the armor, does it matter if it's moving at full speed or at half speed? It's still going to penetrate your body and do damage. In fact, a slow bullet is deadlier than a fast bullet - a fast bullet will penetrate and even if it fragments, continue in a relatively straight line and leave your body on the other side. It will suffer a reduction in velocity as it enters and travels through your body, but if its going fast enough to start, it will maintain enough velocity to exit. If it is reduced in velocity by armor, it is possible that it will not have enough velocity to penetrate the other side, and may instead start to ricochet or it's pieces divert into multiple directions, causing greater injury!

A .22 round, for example, at close range can penetrate the skull but does not have enough energy to exit.

The only logical example I have though of so far where armor as damage reduction vs damage cancellation is in the form of stopping a bullet completely but causing concussive damage - but this is generally not fatal. Cracked ribs, knocked on your ass, maybe stunned/unconscious for a bit. A good example of this is taking a few 9mm shots to the chest with good (modern) body armor, or a shot form a 5.56 round or 7.62x39mm at range (to the chest while wearing the armor). It'll knock you on your ass but, after the stun wears off, you can get back up and (painfully) run to cover. On the other hand, 5.56 rounds tend to fragment on penetration and fragments do not leave the target... so if the armor doesnt stop it, it's not going to help you much.

Edit: I'm going to dig out my Phoenix Command manuals, been a while since I looked at them. I think they treat armor as all-or-nothing as well. PC was designed around real world research; in fact, if I recall correctly, one of 4th edition's major changes was that of how body armor protects against explosives, based on (at the time) new research data results.

 

[MaineCoon]

Which just goes to show: if you strike at your opponent with a big sharp weapon, they don't try to dodge, don't have anything to block it with, and aren't wearing anything protective... they're going to get seriously hurt, guaranteed.

And it didnt even need any special rules regarding that, just straight up modifiers

I'm on the wall myself regarding using straight CT rules with an armor matrix, or using rules where armor applies damage reduction to the attack.

Armor reducing damage sounds like it makes sense, on the surface. But in reality, armor either protects you or it doesn't. It may reduce the velocity, but if an arrow, bullet, or blade gets through the armor, does it matter if it's moving at full speed or at half speed? It's still going to penetrate your body and do damage. In fact, a slow bullet is deadlier than a fast bullet - a fast bullet will penetrate and even if it fragments, continue in a relatively straight line and leave your body on the other side. It will suffer a reduction in velocity as it enters and travels through your body, but if its going fast enough to start, it will maintain enough velocity to exit. If it is reduced in velocity by armor, it is possible that it will not have enough velocity to penetrate the other side, and may instead start to ricochet or it's pieces divert into multiple directions, causing greater injury!

A .22 round, for example, at close range can penetrate the skull but does not have enough energy to exit.

The only logical example I have though of so far where armor as damage reduction vs damage cancellation is in the form of stopping a bullet completely but causing concussive damage - but this is generally not fatal. Cracked ribs, knocked on your ass, maybe stunned/unconscious for a bit. A good example of this is taking a few 9mm shots to the chest with good (modern) body armor, or a shot form a 5.56 round or 7.62x39mm at range (to the chest while wearing the armor). It'll knock you on your ass but, after the stun wears off, you can get back up and (painfully) run to cover. On the other hand, 5.56 rounds tend to fragment on penetration and fragments do not leave the target... so if the armor doesnt stop it, it's not going to help you much.

Edit: I'm going to dig out my Phoenix Command manuals, been a while since I looked at them. I think they treat armor as all-or-nothing as well. PC was designed around real world research; in fact, if I recall correctly, one of 4th edition's major changes was that of how body armor protects against explosives, based on (at the time) new research data results.

 

[mike wightman]

According to a lot of the combat reports I've read from Iraq and Afghanistan, troops in body armour rarely notice being hit by small arms fire that the armour defeats - they certainly aren't knocked down by it.

 

[mike wightman]

According to a lot of the combat reports I've read from Iraq and Afghanistan, troops in body armour rarely notice being hit by small arms fire that the armour defeats - they certainly aren't knocked down by it.

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

This is one reason I've always preferred the light wound/serious wound/dirt nap system from AHL and Striker. The "hit points" idea is sometimes just too silly to cope with.

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

This is one reason I've always preferred the light wound/serious wound/dirt nap system from AHL and Striker. The "hit points" idea is sometimes just too silly to cope with.

 

[sithknight]

Hmmm...well I am dropping any + mods to 0. I figure 0 represents the weapon penetrating the armor in question. I will keep the negative (-) modifiers to represent the armor helping stop the round.

And cover was a HUGE omission in the classic Book 1-3 rules (althought I am sure it appreared in a JTAS or some adventure, right?). I am going to use my cover rules (above).

Vehicles are easy - I saw the abstract systems posted via email link on these boards...pretty cool. But much easier just to make a 1d6 damage chart, and roll a damage roll for every 50 hit points the vehicle takes, and treat its armor as character armor with mods, such as:

ATV
DT: 50 (damage threshold)
Armor: Cloth+2
Damage Chart
1: Powerplant damage. 1-3 inoperable, 4-5 1/2 speed, 6 catastophic fusion explosion imminent.
2: Steering jamed or wheels shredded (move -25%)
3: Hull penetrated. Roll 7+ or suffer damage as per weapon.
4: Sensors damage: ladar, spotlights, etc.
5: Out-of-control. Roll 11+ to avoind serious crash doing 2D to all paseengers.
6: Fire: interior hit causes fire. Smoke inhalation and burns (roll 6+ to avoid), will continue to burn and consumer air each turn.

 

[sithknight]

Hmmm...well I am dropping any + mods to 0. I figure 0 represents the weapon penetrating the armor in question. I will keep the negative (-) modifiers to represent the armor helping stop the round.

And cover was a HUGE omission in the classic Book 1-3 rules (althought I am sure it appreared in a JTAS or some adventure, right?). I am going to use my cover rules (above).

Vehicles are easy - I saw the abstract systems posted via email link on these boards...pretty cool. But much easier just to make a 1d6 damage chart, and roll a damage roll for every 50 hit points the vehicle takes, and treat its armor as character armor with mods, such as:

ATV
DT: 50 (damage threshold)
Armor: Cloth+2
Damage Chart
1: Powerplant damage. 1-3 inoperable, 4-5 1/2 speed, 6 catastophic fusion explosion imminent.
2: Steering jamed or wheels shredded (move -25%)
3: Hull penetrated. Roll 7+ or suffer damage as per weapon.
4: Sensors damage: ladar, spotlights, etc.
5: Out-of-control. Roll 11+ to avoind serious crash doing 2D to all paseengers.
6: Fire: interior hit causes fire. Smoke inhalation and burns (roll 6+ to avoid), will continue to burn and consumer air each turn.

 

[SOCOM242]

Originally posted by MaineCoon:
Edit: I'm going to dig out my Phoenix Command manuals, been a while since I looked at them. I think they treat armor as all-or-nothing as well. PC was designed around real world research; in fact, if I recall correctly, one of 4th edition's major changes was that of how body armor protects against explosives, based on (at the time) new research data results.

OMG!!! Pheonix Command?!?!?! Awesome Small Arms Combat system!!!

If I recall, the damage is determined on a factor of bullet velocity at time of impact (since a bullet slows down if fired from a longer range), and the armor reduces the penetration energy of the bullet at that speed and range, and finally the Damage Tables actually show you how far the bullet travelled inside your body AND how much trauma damage it caused.

Another thing I liked about PC is how "hit points" were never used. Your body's Health or Stamina stat were cross referenced with how much trauma (or PAIN) you were inflicted by. So a shot through the meaty part of your arm wouldn't phase you that much, but one gut shot and you were down...HARD!

Hmmmmm....I know this system is a bit OVERKILL to be used in CT (or any game for that matter), but I do recall Leading Edge games having a sci-fi RPG using the Pheonix Command system. LIVING STEEL! Hmmmmm...time to open up the closet vaults!

 

[SOCOM242]

Originally posted by MaineCoon:
Edit: I'm going to dig out my Phoenix Command manuals, been a while since I looked at them. I think they treat armor as all-or-nothing as well. PC was designed around real world research; in fact, if I recall correctly, one of 4th edition's major changes was that of how body armor protects against explosives, based on (at the time) new research data results.

OMG!!! Pheonix Command?!?!?! Awesome Small Arms Combat system!!!

If I recall, the damage is determined on a factor of bullet velocity at time of impact (since a bullet slows down if fired from a longer range), and the armor reduces the penetration energy of the bullet at that speed and range, and finally the Damage Tables actually show you how far the bullet travelled inside your body AND how much trauma damage it caused.

Another thing I liked about PC is how "hit points" were never used. Your body's Health or Stamina stat were cross referenced with how much trauma (or PAIN) you were inflicted by. So a shot through the meaty part of your arm wouldn't phase you that much, but one gut shot and you were down...HARD!

Hmmmmm....I know this system is a bit OVERKILL to be used in CT (or any game for that matter), but I do recall Leading Edge games having a sci-fi RPG using the Pheonix Command system. LIVING STEEL! Hmmmmm...time to open up the closet vaults!

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by sithknight:
And cover was a HUGE omission in the classic Book 1-3 rules (althought I am sure it appreared in a JTAS or some adventure, right?). I am going to use my cover rules (above).

Hm...never noticed cover and concealment was missing from Book 1 (since I always refer to the Traveller Book).

In the SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS section (pg. 42 of Book 1), The TRAVELLER BOOK adds...

...rule for reloading.

...rule for combined armor.

...rule for Darkness and Night.

...rule for Cover and Concealment.

...rule for Zero Gravity.


If you want to scribble these (maybe copy them to a post-it note and keep it on that page of Book 1) Darkness/Night and Cover/Concealment DMs into your Book 1, the DMs are...

Darkness and Night: Poor lighting conditions may restrict the ability of an individual to see and attack. Total darkness restricts engagements to close and short range. Attacks with guns at greater than short range are subject to DM -9. Partial darkness (moonlit night, distant illumination, or other weak light sources) reduces visibility range to medium, and attacks with guns are subject to DM -6.

Electronic Sights eliminate negative DMs due to darkness or poor lighting.


Cover and Concealment: Cover is any solid object between an attacker and defender capable of protecting the defender from a weapon attack. Concealment is any object that prevents viewing or sighting of the defender. Cover may also be concealment; concealment is not necessarily cover.

An individual under cover cannot be attacked; an individual n concealment cannot be attacked unless the attacker has some reason to shoot into the area.

Individuals who attack from cover become visible and may themselves be attacked; because they retain partial cover they are eligible for a defending DM of -4. Individuals who attack from concealment provide reason to believe they are present, and may be attacked; because they remain partially concealed, they are allowed a defending DM of -1.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by sithknight:
And cover was a HUGE omission in the classic Book 1-3 rules (althought I am sure it appreared in a JTAS or some adventure, right?). I am going to use my cover rules (above).

Hm...never noticed cover and concealment was missing from Book 1 (since I always refer to the Traveller Book).

In the SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS section (pg. 42 of Book 1), The TRAVELLER BOOK adds...

...rule for reloading.

...rule for combined armor.

...rule for Darkness and Night.

...rule for Cover and Concealment.

...rule for Zero Gravity.


If you want to scribble these (maybe copy them to a post-it note and keep it on that page of Book 1) Darkness/Night and Cover/Concealment DMs into your Book 1, the DMs are...

Darkness and Night: Poor lighting conditions may restrict the ability of an individual to see and attack. Total darkness restricts engagements to close and short range. Attacks with guns at greater than short range are subject to DM -9. Partial darkness (moonlit night, distant illumination, or other weak light sources) reduces visibility range to medium, and attacks with guns are subject to DM -6.

Electronic Sights eliminate negative DMs due to darkness or poor lighting.


Cover and Concealment: Cover is any solid object between an attacker and defender capable of protecting the defender from a weapon attack. Concealment is any object that prevents viewing or sighting of the defender. Cover may also be concealment; concealment is not necessarily cover.

An individual under cover cannot be attacked; an individual n concealment cannot be attacked unless the attacker has some reason to shoot into the area.

Individuals who attack from cover become visible and may themselves be attacked; because they retain partial cover they are eligible for a defending DM of -4. Individuals who attack from concealment provide reason to believe they are present, and may be attacked; because they remain partially concealed, they are allowed a defending DM of -1.