CT+ Computers

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
Do not buy that red planet Terrajunk! Buy Makhidkarun! Solid and dependable.

That was true if both corporations were in the same universe (as MTU isn't the OTU, no Ancients, no Vilani, no "Solomani" movement, just Earthers and their STL and jump colonies and the alien Inheritors).

M2 is MTU's equivalent for Makhidkarun in comparison to the typical SolNet product... OS crash? what OS crash? AI awakening, that's the problem. Too much sentience, not enough ethical constrains... What if it decides that its crew are unnescery, or, worse, it develops a political belief and turns sides to the Alliance? Our products are smart enough to do their jobs, but not smart enough to develop over-independance.

(Luckily no AI has defected to the Alliance yet, but once a High Autonomous one will Awaken, Alliance laws will guarantee it citizenship as a sentient being; the Alliance is an IMTU polity, rival to the Solar Triumvirate).

 

[parmasson]

That just gave me an idea could an AI have a nervous breakdown?

The stress of the job, everybody always depending on you, always on.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Well why even bother. If it's realism we want let's also chuck jump drive, manuver drive (the whole field of artificial gravity in fact), and fusion power. Ships will be cheap and small and very very very slow and they won't have any crew. It'll all be robotic AIs exploring the universe on a time scale measured in millenia.

Jump drive: Alcubierre drive. At least the van der Broek geometry. Causality is not violated locally, and it is unclear if a global violation is valid.
Maneuver drive: Possibly using Machs principle, maybe converting rotational to linear momentum, maybe gravitics.
Gravitics: Dr Robert Forward has discussed several ways to do this. My favorite is "dragging the metric".

So none of those things are impossible, we just haven't got all the engineering worked out. That is what makes it Science Fiction.

But fairies, phlogiston, and big, dumb, computers dont belong.

 

[mike wightman]

Parmasson, I like your ideas.

Just one question - are you deliberately ignoring the maximum initial program skill level of 4?

I also think that most ship systems will have control computer elements built in - the ship's main computer is there to coordinate the actions of all of these sub units and to act as an interface with the crew, although they should be able to use the local computer/robot if needs must.

If LBB2 programs aren't just programs, but are actual robot brain modules plugged into the ship's computer then that may help to explain the high cost of ship computer programs.

 

[robject]

Good fix, Sigg.

As usual.

 

[parmasson]

Just one question - are you deliberately ignoring the maximum initial program skill level of 4?

No, I just plain forgot about them!

I just came up with most of it while watching the baby over here. I keep my LLBs right by the computer just in case!

If LBB2 programs aren't just programs, but are actual robot brain modules plugged into the ship's computer then that may help to explain the high cost of ship computer programs.

You are right. The robot/starship software list should probably be incompatible and networking should be a given. Just exploiting er . . . applying the rules in a new way that could solve most of our problems without a major rewrite.

 

[Golan2072]

Additional LBB8 Devices:
- Hand Computer "Kit", 0.2kg, 2L, Cr1,000, TL8
- Compact Hand Computer, "Kit" 0.2kg, 1L, Cr1,000, TL8
- Card Reader, 1kw, 4kg, 4L, Cr400, TL5
- Radio, Orbital Range (50,000km), 4kw, 10kg, 10L, Cr10,000, TL7
- Radio, Long Orbital Range (500,000km), 8kw, 20kg, 20L, Cr20,000, TL8
- Data Cartridge, 1 Storage space, 1kg, Cr500, TL8
- Expanded Data Cartridge, 5 Storage spaces, 1.5kg, Cr2,000, TL8

The hand computer "kit"s includes the casing, battery, micro-speakers, microphone, very small screen, light pen for writing on that screen and a low-res camera (all the things you can find in an expensive RL cellphone, except for the light pen) as well as a single data-cartridge slot; the standard "kit" has 1.8L free internal space, while the compact "kit" has only 0.8L.

The card reader is a low-tech system reading punching cards (am I even close to RL figures?)

The radios are relatively high-power, high-quality ones. TL5 equipment could reach orbit, or maybe even the moon, but it'll be bulky and with alot of noise; the listed TL is for good-quality equipment.

The data cartridge is a standard detachable data-storage media of TL8+. A Hand Computer has one data cartridge slot; an LBB8 Program Interface has ten, and an LBB8 Brain Interface has five in addition to various cable interface sockets.

Additional LBB8 Sensors:
- Console Interface, 2kw, 2kg, 4L, Cr200, TL6
- Desktop Interface, 0.5kw, 0.5kg, 1L, Cr50, TL7

The Console Interface is a large, multi-functional input set of the kind found on mainframe access stations or starship bridges; the Desktop Interface includes several small input devices (keyboard, mouse and so on). No monitor is included in either.

"New" LBB8 CPUs:
- CPU, mechanical, 100L, 100kg, Cr25,000, TL5
- CPU, electro-mechanical, 10L, 10kg, Cr5,000, TL6
- CPU, early linear, 1L, 1kg, Cr1,000, TL7
- Storage, tape, 10L, 10kg, Cr5,000, TL6

All such "brains" cannot have an apparent intelligence of more than 1. Am I even close to historical systems of these kinds?

"New" LBB8 Fundamental Logic Programs:
- URP M, Mechanical, TL5, CPU 1, Storage 0, Cr2,000, +0 Dex
- URP E, Electric, TL6, CPU 1, Storage 0, Cr1,000, +0 Dex
- URPB, Binary, TL7, CPU 1, Storage 1, Cr500, +0 Dex

"New" Fundamental Command Programs:
- URP M, Mechanical, TL5, CPU 1, Storage 0, Cr1,000, req. Mechanical Logic, Int 0
- URP L, Machine Language, TL6, CPU 1, Storage 0, Cr750, req. Electric Logic, Int 0
- URP B, Basic OS, TL7, CPU 1, Storage 1, Cr500, req. Binary Logic, Int 0

New LBB8 Programs:
- Basic Application Suit 1 Storage, 1 CPU, Cr500, TL7
- Multi-Game Cartridge, 1 CPU Cr100, if loaded to Storage it takes 1 Storage as well

These are the OS for home computers plus several typical applications (think WinXP+ MS-Office); the game "cartridge" is a standard data-cartridge carrying several computer games.

LBB8 Hand Computer Designs:
- Standard HandComp: Handcomp Kit+1 Linear CPU+2 Standard Storage; 0.5kg, Cr2,000, TL8
- Compact HandComp: Compact Handcomp Kit+1 Linear CPU+1 Standard Storage; 0.4kg, Cr1,500, TL8

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
You are right. The robot/starship software list should probably be incompatible and networking should be a given. Just exploiting er . . . applying the rules in a new way that could solve most of our problems without a major rewrite.

Exactly. And besides, most LBB2 programs aren't nearly as complex as the LBB8 ones. You can write a small TL6 program that will allow you to navigate from Terra to Luna, but even in early TL8 you can't write a good emotion simulation program. Just use LBB2 spaces with a multiplies (x2? x5? x10?) and put them in LBB8 brains.

 

[Jame]

Okay. What about storage for later TLs, i.e. floppy disks for TL 7, CDs for TL 8, crystals for TL 13, and etc.?

Also, I would suggest updating the program list, for example, adding a medical- or electronics-help program.

 

[parmasson]

Okay. What about storage for later TLs, i.e. floppy disks for TL 7, CDs for TL 8, crystals for TL 13, and etc.?

I like to keep that actual number of discs or devices vague to keep the software slots as an abstract idea.
Q: How many 3.5” discs equal 1 unit of storage?
A:As many as it takes.

This prevents the constant revision of storage capacity.

 

[parmasson]

Didn’t somebody come up with guidelines for the operating system in Traveller? I’ll be a Vargr’s pup if I can find it now.

Can we agree that LBB 8 forms the foundation of the CT+ computer systems? Add-ons and modifications are at the ref’s discretion. Are the prices are greatly reduced? I think that the megacorporations were artificially inflating the price anyway.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
Didn’t somebody come up with guidelines for the operating system in Traveller? I’ll be a Vargr’s pup if I can find it now.

There you go

All LBB2 format, all that is needed now is conversion to LBB8 specs.

Another random note: to keep current ship designs relevant, just assume that the so-called "computer" is the sensor/comm/ECM/ECCM suit, and add the LBB8 computer cost to it. LBB8 computers will take neglegible tonnage, which will be subsumed in the "computer" tonnage. Cost will be added for higher-quality brains that could cost significant portions of an MCr (i.e. Cr100,000+).

Originally posted by Jame:
Okay. What about storage for later TLs, i.e. floppy disks for TL 7, CDs for TL 8, crystals for TL 13, and etc.?

Also, I would suggest updating the program list, for example, adding a medical- or electronics-help program.

For simplicity's sake, just assume that all TL8+ systems within a multi-TL polity (such as the Imperium, which has TLs from 0 to 16 on its various worlds) use standardlized "Data Cartidges", which are data-storage "black boxes" with a standardlized interface; the higher the TL, the more data it can store, and the more durable it is, but the interface unit would be compatible with all Imperial-standard TL8+ systems.

 

[Golan2072]

Martian Mechanics T-9/PQ11
Size 80 Liters
Mass 68.1kg with ECP
Cost Cr 247,875 with ECP (MCr0.25 for ship installation)
Total Storage 73 software units
Apparent Intelligence: 4
Apparent Education: 7
Required Power Input 26 kw
T-9/PQ11 S.T. (Standard Triumvirate)
Parallel/Linear Operating System Included.
Input Peripherals: Console Interface, Basic Sensor Pkg., Voder
Devices: ECP, Power Interface, Brain Interface, Program Interface, Master Unit, Radio, ECM, Video Recorder, Flat Video Display
Brain Applications: Pilot-1, Engineering-1, Gunnery-1, Ship Tactics-1, Security-1, Cargo Handling-1
Free Space: 20 CPU units and 40 Storage units (2/4 for LBB2 software)
Complete URP: 41000-00-PQ116-0047

A baseline, low-end Model/1 equivalent (under the assumption that 1 LBB2 unit = 10 LBB8 units) for civilian use, easily repairable on many worlds (TL9+) and capable of limited automation; slaved robotics will have to carry their own programs unless they require Engineering and/or Cargo Handling.

 

[parmasson]

Damn spiffy, that I can live with.

Long live the LBBs!

 

[Theo D Lite]

Originally posted by far-trader:
That is another of my pet-peeves, 4kw, FOUR KILOWATTS! Maybe 4 watts, but 4000 watts for the radio! I don't need more than a couple watts of power to broadcast 5km easy. Traveller power consumption ideas have always seemed a bit extreme and that's fine for anti-gravity and jump drives, we have no idea how much energy will be needed but radio is one thing we do have and know, like computers. A 5km radio just does not need that much juice.

Here, here. At home I have a Yaesu Ft-857 (Yes I'm a radio ham). This produces 100W of RF power at full chat and runs off a 13.8v DC supply at 22A.

By my calculations P=IV this means it requires 22 x 13.8 or 303.6W. Its range? Anywhere round the world including the ISS and LEO satellites provided you use the correct band/mode and antenna combination.

Note though that the same design that gives me 160m to 70cm all mode coverage has compromises and efficency problems notably in the amplification stages whereby my 100W out is reduced to 50W on 2m and 20W on 70cm.

The unit measures 155 x 52 x 233 mm and weighs around 2.1kg but doesn't include a power supply.

Output power is not the be all and end all of transmit range. A low power rig into a good antenna will in all probability be as good if not better than a high power rig into a mediocre antenna. Internal antennas such as a humanoid robot might have to blend in would definitely be a compromise design. However in general the difference between 10W out and 100W out is at best 2 'S' points. Thus if at 100W you're being heard at 60dB over S9 then at 10W you'll still be a solid copy at S9 and probably cause less interference to boot.

I've just re read this and I'm not sure that I've added much to the debate. I agree that the power requirements for radios quoted above are clearly nonsense and to only go a limited range (5km was quoted) can be done with almost no power. I've worked simplex 2m (VHF FM) form Bristol to Cardiff (about 20 - 25 miles or 32 - 40km) running about 2.5W of RF power using a handheld into a loft mounted co-linear with probably a 3dB of gain. The electrical power supply was a 7V internal battery.

The whole thing clips onto my belt, although the 4.5 foot antenna bolted to my hat looks kind of silly!!

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by far-trader:
That is another of my pet-peeves, 4kw, FOUR KILOWATTS! Maybe 4 watts, but 4000 watts for the radio! I don't need more than a couple watts of power to broadcast 5km easy. A 5km radio just does not need that much juice.

Depends on the receiver. If you want people to be able to pick up the transmissions on their fillings you might want 4 kilowatts (we once had an issue with a local ham radio operator with a 1.5 kilowatt transmitter, which was powerful enough that we were picking up his transmissions on our stereo. When it was turned off)

 

[parmasson]

Ok you found us out, there is a little switch inside the box that boosts the range up to its full capacity for power usage.
Or...
Typo: Just turn Kilowatt into watt.

Issue fixed

 

[Theo D Lite]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Depends on the receiver. If you want people to be able to pick up the transmissions on their fillings you might want 4 kilowatts (we once had an issue with a local ham radio operator with a 1.5 kilowatt transmitter, which was powerful enough that we were picking up his transmissions on our stereo. When it was turned off)

We need to be careful here that we are distinguishing between RF power transmitted into the ether and electrical power supplied to the rig and amplifier if any.

The 1500W you refer to sounds like a transmitted RF power. Whereas I interpretted the 4000W in the original post as supply power to drive the equipment. For sure you don't need 4000W of RF power to go 5km unless its through something damn solid!

 

[parmasson]

Theo D Lite

Note though that the same design that gives me 160m to 70cm all mode coverage has compromises and efficiency problems notably in the amplification stages whereby my 100W out is reduced to 50W on 2m and 20W on 70cm.

What does this mean? Straight line distance?

 

[Theo D Lite]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
Theo D Lite
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Note though that the same design that gives me 160m to 70cm all mode coverage has compromises and efficiency problems notably in the amplification stages whereby my 100W out is reduced to 50W on 2m and 20W on 70cm.

What does this mean? Straight line distance? </font>[/QUOTE]No. Sorry I shouldn't have quoted something like a wavelength that could be misinterpretted. My error.

The measurments referred to in my post are the nominal wavelengths used for the transmission. 160m is the HF band extending from 1.81MHz to 2.00Mhz. 2m is the VHF band covering 144MHz to 146MHz (in the USA and other countries it's 144MHz - 148MHz). 70cm is the UHF band extending from 430MHz - 440MHz.

As it's a bit of a drag to have to quote a band by an upper and lower cutoff frequency it's common to refer to it by a nominal wavelength which is derived from the usual:

velocity = frequency * wavelength

where:

velocity = speed of light in a vacuum (3E8 m/s)
frequency = frequency in Hertz (Hz)
wavelength = wavelength in metres

The resultant wavelength is usually rounded to a nominal whole number for ease of use.

Full details of the UK Amateur radio band allocations can be found at:

http://www.rsgb.org.uk/bandplans/bandplans.pdf

That's either helped or really confused the issue.