CT Errata Compendium

[snrdg082102]

LBB2 1981 page 20 Mercenary Cruiser update

Afternoon all,

I found another item that my calculations do not agree with the errata.

I get 104 displacement tons of cargo in addition to the crew and MCr.

 

[snrdg082102]

LBB2 1981 page 20 Mercenary Cruiser update 2

Hello all,

Carlobrand got back to me with his review of my calculations and discovered that I missed the air/raft from the details in LBB2 1981 page 20. Unfortunately, this increased mercenary cruiser to MCr427.104 and gave the ship a cargo capacity of 100-tons.

Carlobrand went to Adventure 7 and discovered that the mercenary cruiser also included a fuel module and an open module for the modular cutters. Adding the two modules casts matches the Consolidated CT Errata MCr of 429.804. Each of the modules take up 30-tons which drops the cargo capacity to 40 tons.

Adventure 7 pages 24-25 has the ship with a total fuel tankage of 278 tons, LBB2 1977 has the tankage as 288 tons, and LBB2 1981 is 318 tons.

Both LBB2 1977 and LBB2 1981 indicate that there is 48 tons of fuel available to the two small craft carried by the mercenary cruiser.

The calculations indicates that the jump drive requires 240 tons of fuel to make one jump 3. The power plant requires 30 tons of fuel for four weeks of operation.

Including the air/craft, the two cutter modules, and the fuel for the jump drive and power plant I get a cargo capacity of 88 tons. Per LBB2 1977, LBB2 1981, and Adventure 7 a mercenary cruiser has a cargo capacity of 80 tons. With this information I am guessing that 8 tons of fuel is dedicated to refueling the two carried small craft.

My first recommendation is to make the least amount of changes to LBB2 1981 as follows:

a. Total Fuel tankage is 278 tons which includes 240 tons for the jump drive, 30 tons for the power plant and 8 tons dedicated for the carried small craft.

b. Cargo capacity 140 tons

c. MCr427.104.

The second recommendation is follows.

a. Total Fuel tankage is 278 tons which includes 240 tons for the jump drive, 30 tons for the power plant and 8 tons dedicated for the carried small craft.

b. The mercenary cruiser includes one 30-ton fuel module (MCr1.0) and one 30-ton open module (MCr2.0)

c. Cargo capacity 80 tons

d. MCr429.804.

A third possibility would be

a. Total Fuel tankage is 338 tons which includes 240 tons for the jump drive, 30 tons for the power plant and 68 tons dedicated for the carried small craft.

b. Cargo capacity 80 tons

c. MCr427.104.

 

[snrdg082102]

Supplement 7 Express Boat Tender Vehicle Bay deck plan page 12

Hello Donald,

The express boat tender's vehicle bay deck plan on page 12 of Supplement 7 has information printed on the right hand side of the diagram. The first line is 40 meter ceiling, per the third line entry the bay has a 12 meter height. The fourth and fifth line states 40 meter length.

Two recommendations:

Recommendation 1:
Page 12, Express Boat Tender (type XT) Vehicle Bay deck plan (correction): Remove the first entry by using one line to strike through the line of the remarks on the right hand side has the vehicle bay with a 40 meter ceiling.

Recommendation 2:
Page 12, Express Boat Tender (type XT) Vehicle Bay deck plan (correction): The first entry of the remarks on the right hand side has the vehicle bay with a 40 meter ceiling. The 40 meters refers to the bay’s length, change the line from 40 meter ceiling to 40 meter length.

 

[snrdg082102]

CT Supplement 7 Express Boat dimensions

Hello Donald,

Per Consolidated CT Errata page 29

Traders and Gunboats (318, Supplement 7, 1980)

Page 9, Xboat Deck Plans (correction and clarification): Under Dimensions, it should read "12 meter hemisphere with 16 meter truncated cone rear tail. Overall length 22 meters."

Per Supplement 7 page 9 express boat deck plan each square on the deck plan equals 1.5 meters for use with Snapshot and Azhanti High Lightning.

Using the deck plan above the box titled Xboat-51216 I get the following dimensions.

The widest point of the hemisphere is eight squares giving the dimension of 8 x 1.5 = 12 meters wide. From the highest point on the control deck (Item 1) to the bulkhead with the second hatch is four squares of 4 x 1.5 = 6 meters.

From the top edge of the fuel tanks to the bottom is eleven squares or 11 x 1.5 = 22.5.

By the calculations the total length of an express boat is 22.5 meters from bow to stern and is 12 meter at its widest point.

Express Boat Recommendation:
Page 9, Xboat Deck Plans (correction and clarification): Under Dimensions, it should read "A flattened sphere of 6 meters high that is 12 meter wide at the base and a 16.5 meter truncated cone rear tail. Overall length 22.5 meters."

 

[snrdg082102]

CT Supplement 7 Express Boat Tender fluff pages 11, 14, and 15.

Evening Donald

Per the fluff an express boat tender has dimensions of 60 meters long, 30 meters long, and 12 meters high. The cavernous ship (vehicle per deck plan page 12) is 40 meters long, 28.5 meters wide, and has 1 height of 12 meters with the bay doors closed or 24 meters with them open.

According to the fluff on page 11 the ship/vehicle can accommodate four express boats or two scout/couriers.

Per Supplement 7 page an express boat has a total length of 22 meters and is 12 meters at the ship's widest diameter. I count fifteen squares on the express boat deck plan on page 9. At 1.5 meters per square I get a total length of 15 x 1.5 = 22.5 meters. The express boat is made up of two shapes a flattened sphere which is 6 meters in height and 12 metes at the widest point and a truncated cone that at the widest point is 12 meters, 16.5 meters in length, and 3 meters wide at the narrowest.

A scout/courier per Supplement page 17 is 37.5 meters in length, 24 meters wide, and has a height of 7.5 meters.

I can see that one scout/courier can easily fit inside the ship/vehicle bay. Stuffing two 37.5 meter long hulls might be possible, but I'm not sure how much work could be done.

The express boat tender's outer dimension per Supplement 7 is 12 meters from the outside of the ship/vehicle bay door to the highest point on the outer hull. Unless I'm missing something I can not see one express boat fitting into the ship/vehicle bay.

Can someone try convincing me that the express boat tender could get four express boats or two scout/couriers in a space 40 meters long, 28.5 meters wide, and 12 meters high?

 

[snrdg082102]

Consolidated CT Errata TRADERS AND GUNBOATS (318, Supplement 7, 1980) X-Boat Tender

Hello Donald McKinney,

Per Consolidated CT Errata page 29 TRADERS AND GUNBOATS
(318, Supplement 7, 1980) is the following entry:

Page 11, Express Boat Tender (type XT) (correction): The cargo bay should be 85 tons, not 60.[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT]
The 60 tons, per page 11 and the eleventh line under Express Boat Tender, of cargo area refers to what is allocated to storing repair parts and replacement equipment for the x-boats the tender services. Page 14 states that the 60 ton cargo capacity carries consumables for the tender and to replace food and consumables when resupplying express boats.

My recommendation is to change the Consolidated CT Errata entry to something like:

Page 11, Express Boat Tender (type XT) (correction): 60 tons of cargo area dedicated to consumables, repair parts and replacement equipment.

 

[snrdg082102]

CT Book 2 2nd Edition 1981 Design and Construction Rules Standard Hulls

Hello Donald McKinney,

There is something fishing going on with the Standard Hulls table on page 22 of CT Book 2 Starships.

The note under the Standard Hulls table states: "The hulls listed above are standard sizes, readily available at reduced prices or times shown. All others must be cost produced at MCr0.1 per ton. Page 13 stipulates the minimum price of a custom hull is MCr20.

A standard 100 ton hull is MCr2 and a custom 100 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 100 = MCr10 this is under the minimum price so a 100 ton hull is MCr20.

A standard 200 ton hull is MCr8 and a custom 200 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 200 = MCr20.

A standard 400 ton hull is MCr16 and a custom 400 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 400 = MCr40.

A standard 600 ton hull is MCr48 and a custom 600 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 600 = MCr60.

A standard 800 ton hull is MCr80 and a custom 800 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 800 = MCr80.

A standard 1000 ton hull is MCr100 and a custom 1000 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 1000 = MCr100.

The first four standard hulls can be purchased at a reduced price.

Eight hundred and one thousand ton standard hulls cost the same as custom ones.

What are the reduced prices for 800 and 1,000 ton hulls?

 

[Carlobrand]

Hello Donald McKinney,

There is something fishing going on with the Standard Hulls table on page 22 of CT Book 2 Starships.

The note under the Standard Hulls table states: "The hulls listed above are standard sizes, readily available at reduced prices or times shown. All others must be cost produced at MCr0.1 per ton. Page 13 stipulates the minimum price of a custom hull is MCr20.

A standard 100 ton hull is MCr2 and a custom 100 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 100 = MCr10 this is under the minimum price so a 100 ton hull is MCr20.

A standard 200 ton hull is MCr8 and a custom 200 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 200 = MCr20.

A standard 400 ton hull is MCr16 and a custom 400 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 400 = MCr40.

A standard 600 ton hull is MCr48 and a custom 600 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 600 = MCr60.

A standard 800 ton hull is MCr80 and a custom 800 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 800 = MCr80.

A standard 1000 ton hull is MCr100 and a custom 1000 ton hull is MCr0.1 x 1000 = MCr100.

The first four standard hulls can be purchased at a reduced price.

Eight hundred and one thousand ton standard hulls cost the same as custom ones.

What are the reduced prices for 800 and 1,000 ton hulls?

I've always thought that was intentional. Note that the 200 and 400 are 40% of custom cost, but the 600 goes to 80%. Note also that while the 800 and 1000 standard cost the same as custom, they don't take as long to build.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Carlobrand,

Thanks for the reply

I've always thought that was intentional. Note that the 200 and 400 are 40% of custom cost, but the 600 goes to 80%. Note also that while the 800 and 1000 standard cost the same as custom, they don't take as long to build.

The progression for the price reduction is 40%, 40%, 40%, 80%, 0, and 0. Kind of radical change in my opinion, some sort of price reduction would have been better than nothing.

If I ever design a ship using Book 2 all my 800 and 1,000 ton hulls will be custom.

Again thank you for the feedback.

 

[Carlobrand]

...

If I ever design a ship using Book 2 all my 800 and 1,000 ton hulls will be custom. ...

That might be the better solution. Book 2 states, "The standard hulls table shows six standard hulls which are available at reduced prices and construction times." Maybe it's nitpicky of me, but I don't think the average player looking at the chart and seeing two ships that don't get a reduced price is going to think that statement complies with "Truth in Advertising;" I don't think shaving 3 weeks off a 7 month build time is going to incline them to think they got a deal.

The scout, free trader, subsidized merchant & patrol cruiser, and the subsidized liner are supposedly ubiquitous enough to justify calling them standard designs and giving them a hull discount. The Mercenary Cruiser is mentioned as a standard design but gets no discount; if I were buying one and were told I'd only get it 3 weeks early for my trouble, I'd say, "Forget the standard and give me one to my specs that's streamlined and carries more troops." If there are so many merc companies out there buying it that it deserves to be called a standard design and receive special treatment - which is kind of frightening - then it should get a discount. If not, then it's basically in the same class as the lab ship or the safari ship, which is to say it's fairly common but not so frequently built as to be mentioned as a standard.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no ship in the 1000 dT range that is considered a standard design. The Tukera Long Liner of Traveller Adventure is described as a proprietary design. The Oberlindes Cargo Carrier is described as "a standard design commissioned by Oberlindes," but I can't see why they'd commission a standard design with 135 dTons of drive and a 165 dTon drive space, so I'm inclined to consider it proprietary as well. 165 dTons for a drive space suits a 1000 dT ship poorly, anyway: it's hard to find a drive combination that suits the ship and makes best use of the space.

Perhaps the thing to do is to say there are four standard designs, not six.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Carlobrand,

Originally Posted by snrdg082102
...

If I ever design a ship using Book 2 all my 800 and 1,000 ton hulls will be custom. ...

That might be the better solution. Book 2 states, "The standard hulls table shows six standard hulls which are available at reduced prices and construction times." Maybe it's nitpicky of me, but I don't think the average player looking at the chart and seeing two ships that don't get a reduced price is going to think that statement complies with "Truth in Advertising;" I don't think shaving 3 weeks off a 7 month build time is going to incline them to think they got a deal.

Until I ran the express boat tender through my spreadsheet and discovered that changing standard to custom the cost was MCr100 in either case I didn't know only four of the six had price reductions.

I may not be average and obviously I'm nitpicky because of this post, but I don't think paying the same price as a custom built hull is a price discount.

The scout, free trader, subsidized merchant & patrol cruiser, and the subsidized liner are supposedly ubiquitous enough to justify calling them standard designs and giving them a hull discount. The Mercenary Cruiser is mentioned as a standard design but gets no discount; if I were buying one and were told I'd only get it 3 weeks early for my trouble, I'd say, "Forget the standard and give me one to my specs that's streamlined and carries more troops." If there are so many merc companies out there buying it that it deserves to be called a standard design and receive special treatment - which is kind of frightening - then it should get a discount. If not, then it's basically in the same class as the lab ship or the safari ship, which is to say it's fairly common but not so frequently built as to be mentioned as a standard.

The Consolidated CT Errata indicates that the mercenary cruiser uses a custom hull.

In the first edition the mercenary cruiser was identified as a Cruiser (Type C) and was described as a quasi-military vessel for private or semi-military operations. The first edition indicated that 17 of the crew members could be research personnel, technicians, or troops.

Whoever edited the mercenary cruiser decided to drop the research personnel and technicians.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no ship in the 1000 dT range that is considered a standard design. The Tukera Long Liner of Traveller Adventure is described as a proprietary design. The Oberlindes Cargo Carrier is described as "a standard design commissioned by Oberlindes," but I can't see why they'd commission a standard design with 135 dTons of drive and a 165 dTon drive space, so I'm inclined to consider it proprietary as well. 165 dTons for a drive space suits a 1000 dT ship poorly, anyway: it's hard to find a drive combination that suits the ship and makes best use of the space.

Perhaps the thing to do is to say there are four standard designs, not six.

I've just had a thought about the difference between standard design plans and standard hulls.

A standard design is any ship class that is built in quantity over large area and/or a long period of time.

A standard hull is one where the main compartment and engineering space specifications are always the same and run through say an automated line or something of the sort.

So technically the seven designs in Book 2 are standard designs of which I think the count is five using a standard of the shelf internal hull configuration which may or may not be able to be purchased at a reduced rate and/or have a shorter build time.

Thanks for your continued help.

 

[rancke]

Perhaps the thing to do is to say there are four standard designs, not six.

I think it's a lot more likely that there are scores of standard designs. Think for a moment what a standard design hull IS. Is it a hull that some company produces assembly line style and sells by the lot to individual shipyards? Or is it a design that the particular shipyard you buy from knows just precisely how to build, having built quite a few of them before?

IMTU there's a small shipyard called Ancker Shipyard on Regina. It specializes in one particular 400T hull, doing J1, J2, and J3 versions (and they have the plans for a J4 version on file). If you go to them, that hull will count as a standard design. If you go to Bilstein Yards in Glisten to get the same hull, it might well count as a custom hull.

And, of course, if you go to any shipyard and order more than one ship of a custom design, you get the standard desig discount (in time and money) on the second and all subsequent ships.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Hans,

I think it's a lot more likely that there are scores of standard designs. Think for a moment what a standard design hull IS. Is it a hull that some company produces assembly line style and sells by the lot to individual shipyards? Or is it a design that the particular shipyard you buy from knows just precisely how to build, having built quite a few of them before?

From Book 2 1981 page 18 I understand that standard designs are
1. Available at almost any shipyard
2. All hulls have the same performance characteristics and design details.
3. Many hulls have been built.

From page 22
To be a standard hull specific tonnage is allocated to the main compartment and the remaining tonnage goes to the engineering section

IMTU there's a small shipyard called Ancker Shipyard on Regina. It specializes in one particular 400T hull, doing J1, J2, and J3 versions (and they have the plans for a J4 version on file). If you go to them, that hull will count as a standard design. If you go to Bilstein Yards in Glisten to get the same hull, it might well count as a custom hull.

One shipyard builds the 400 ton hulls, all the versions have the same performance and design details and they have sold a large quantity on the local market. Technically, they don't qualify for the 10% discount, however two out of three is good enough for me.

If all three or four 400 ton hulls devote 350 tons to the main compartment and 50 tons to the engineering section the hulls get the reduced price and/or reduced build time per the Standard Hulls Table on p. 22 of Book 2 2nd edition 1981.

If the Ancker Shipyard did both I'd let them have both benefits.

If the Blisten Yards one make one offs then the hull does not get the 10% discount. If their hull devoted 350 tons to the main compartment and 50 tons for the engineering space the hull will get, if you believe the Book 2 standard ship design examples, the MCr discount and shorter build time.

And, of course, if you go to any shipyard and order more than one ship of a custom design, you get the standard desig discount (in time and money) on the second and all subsequent ships.

Only 100, 200, 400, and 600 ton hulls that allocate the specified tonnages to the main compartment and engineering space. Hulls of 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1,000 tons allocating the specified tonnages to the main compartment and engineering space get reduced build times.

Until almost any shipyard could build the design technically the design qualify for the 10%.

 

[Carlobrand]

... The Consolidated CT Errata indicates that the mercenary cruiser uses a custom hull. ...
I've just had a thought about the difference between standard design plans and standard hulls.

A standard design is any ship class that is built in quantity over large area and/or a long period of time.

A standard hull is one where the main compartment and engineering space specifications are always the same and run through say an automated line or something of the sort. ...

I think it's a lot more likely that there are scores of standard designs. Think for a moment what a standard design hull IS. Is it a hull that some company produces assembly line style and sells by the lot to individual shipyards? Or is it a design that the particular shipyard you buy from knows just precisely how to build, having built quite a few of them before?
...

My apologies for conflating two different items. For CT Book 2 purposes, there are six (oops, seven) standard designs, with the result that you don't have to pay an architect but can buy ready-made blueprints. That saves you the 1%-of-cost-of-ship price for design plans, AND you net a 10% reduction in price because they're easier to build, being common. They are the 100-ton Scout/Courier, 200-ton Free Trader, 200-ton Yacht, 400-ton Subsidized Merchant, 600-ton Subsidized Liner, 800-ton Mercenary Cruiser, and 400-ton Patrol Cruiser. And, "(o)ther standard plans may be available at various localities." So, you can most likely find a yacht deckplan or a safari ship deckplan and a place familiar with their construction somewhere. Or, as you point out, Rancke, you could design your own (and pay the architect's fee) and then order a run of several of them and get the 10% discount on the second and later ships.

Then there are the six standard hulls. The standard hull is supposedly something they produce so frequently that they give you a discount for the hull itself, though not for the other goodies. Whether that's because the hull is being shipped in prefab from Rhylanor or because the yards themselves are turning them out, that's up to the gamemaster. The standard hulls are a 100dT hull with a 15 dT engine compartment (used for the Scout/Courier), a 200 dT hull with a 15 dT engine compartment (used for the Free Trader and, from its price, the Yacht), a 400 dT hull with a 50 dT engine compartment (used for the Subsidized Merchant, though with a smaller engine installed and 15 dT of unused drive space), a 600 dT hull with an 85 dT engine compartment (used for the Subsidized Liner), an 800 dT hull with an 165 dT engine compartment, and a 1000 dT hull with an 165 dT engine compartment.

As snrdg points out, the Broadsword is said to use a custom hull (though it is a standard design), so we do not in fact have any ship known to use the supposedly standard 800 dT or 1000 dT hulls (which, since no one is getting a discount for them, probably shouldn't be a surprise).

Net result is that the scout, free trader, subsidized merchant and so forth get a discounted hull and then also get a 10% discount on top of that. That's one of the several reasons they cost less in CT Book 2 than they do in High Guard.

Question remains whether we should continue citing the 800 and 1000 as standard hulls when there's no discount for them and no ship based on them. 185 dT engine space can fit a set of R/R/Rs, which is 4G/Jump-4 for an 800 dT, which is warship territory - an odd class to make a standard hull. Or you could do an SMS, or a THT, or a UDU, but that accomplishes precisely nothing in an 800 other than to slow it down. An interesting option is an MVV: 5G/Jump-3, again likely a warship. Maybe they don't get discounts but build faster because they're intended to be warship hulls.

In a 1000, it gives you 3G/Jump-3 (and is oversized since a Q/Q/Q does as well at lower cost and with 10 dT room to spare). And, again, the other combinations do nothing but slow the ship down - except an interesting option here is a KXX: 6G/Jump-2, likely a warship.

 

[rancke]

From Book 2 1981 page 18 I understand that standard designs are
1. Available at almost any shipyard
2. All hulls have the same performance characteristics and design details.
3. Many hulls have been built.

From page 22
To be a standard hull specific tonnage is allocated to the main compartment and the remaining tonnage goes to the engineering section

Game rules are simplifications of reality. As such you have to look at what aspect of reality they reflect to interpret them if they are ambiguous.

One shipyard builds the 400 ton hulls, all the versions have the same performance and design details and they have sold a large quantity on the local market. Technically, they don't qualify for the 10% discount, however two out of three is good enough for me.

They qualify for a discount under TCS (or is it HG? Or both?). First ship in a production run costs full price; every subsequent ship qualifies for time and cost discount. Perhaps standard ship hulls qualify for the discount on the first ship only because shipyards tend to be tooled up for them already, figuratively speaking. Or perhaps the big shipyards are always building the standard ships so they are literally tooled up for them. Or something like that.

If all three or four 400 ton hulls devote 350 tons to the main compartment and 50 tons to the engineering section the hulls get the reduced price and/or reduced build time per the Standard Hulls Table on p. 22 of Book 2 2nd edition 1981.

If the Ancker Shipyard did both I'd let them have both benefits.

It was just an example of a bit of setting that didn't conform ecaxtly to the rules. Or rather, the other way around.

Until almost any shipyard could build the design technically the design qualify for the 10%.

If any shipyard is tooled up to build a particular model, that model qualifies for a discount, no matter how unusual it is. That's reality. There are sound reasons to stick to game rules, but that don't make them realistic by fiat.

But I'm diverging from the topic. All I wanted was what I said above: Suggest that when interpreting an ambiguous rule, you consider just what underlying reality the rule is supposed to reflect. (I know that sometimes you have to ignore reality to a greater or lesser extent to make a rule work, but it's often a good place to start).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...
From Book 2 1981 page 18 I understand that standard designs are
1. Available at almost any shipyard
2. All hulls have the same performance characteristics and design details.
3. Many hulls have been built.

From page 22
To be a standard hull specific tonnage is allocated to the main compartment and the remaining tonnage goes to the engineering section

...

#1 is not supported in the rules as written; see below. I'd also point out that we're drifting into a discussion of his IMTU ideas, which is not what this thread is for. Also drifting into debate on the subject of standard hulls, and I understand they prefer we debate issues elsewhere and then bring the consensus here. Perhaps we should discuss the standard hull issue at length in a separate post?

...They qualify for a discount under TCS (or is it HG? Or both?). ...

To clarify:
CT Book 2: "There are a number of standard design plans available ... Standard starship plans available are: (list of ships and small craft) ... Other standard plans may be available at various localities. ...Standard designs are easier to produce; their prices reflect a 10% reduction in normal pricing."

Book 2 deals with player's eye view, so does not address how a design becomes standard. And, that's a different issue from a standard hull: a player may use a standard hull in a custom design of his own making, or a standard design may use a custom hull (ex.: Broadsword). There are no Book-2 rules governing how a hull becomes standard, though of course a gamemaster is free to set whatever rules he prefers for his own TU.

CT High Guard II: "Once a ship is built, a certain familiarity with the requirements of construction is gained by the building crews, and a shipyard can then produce such ships more rapidly and with greater efficiency. Additional identical ships built following the initial ship in a class can be completed in 80% of the original time at 80% of the original construction cost."

High Guard offers a better discount but does not have standard hulls. Which discount applies depends on which rule system you choose to design the ship under. However, High Guard does clarify how a ship becomes a standard design.

CT TCS: "When more than one vessel ... is constructed using the same or similar statistics ..., the second and all subsequent vessels are produced at 80% of the construction cost of the original vessel. The architect's fee need not be paid again."

Note that TCS does not set a per-yard requirement. Once you've built the first ship of the class, you get the discount and the quicker build time at any system capable of building the ship. Note also that TCS is a wargame with rules intended to simplify game play. The fact that they do not set a per-yard requirement cannot be taken as a ruling on how the role-play milieu does things. There otherwise being no ruling on the subject, I suggest it's up to the gamemaster.

As to the subject of the six standard hulls, question is whether the two that do not have a discount should be given a discount to conform with the Book 2 statement, "The standard hulls table shows six standard hulls which are available at reduced prices and construction times," whether the statement itself should be edited, or whether the two standard hulls which do not receive a discount should simply be omitted, since there's no canon ship based on them and they serve little practical use. Or whether we should just write the thing off as too inconsequential an error to bother putting into the official errata.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Carlobrand,

My apologies for conflating two different items. For CT Book 2 purposes, there are six standard designs, with the result that you don't have to pay an architect but can buy ready-made blueprints. That saves you the 1%-of-cost-of-ship price for design plans, AND you net a 10% reduction in price because they're easier to build, being common. They are the 100-ton Scout/Courier, 200-ton Free Trader, 200-ton Yacht, 400-ton Subsidized Merchant, 600-ton Subsidized Liner, 800-ton Mercenary Cruiser, and 400-ton Patrol Cruiser. And, "(o)ther standard plans may be available at various localities." So, you can most likely find a yacht deckplan or a safari ship deckplan and a place familiar with their construction somewhere. Or, as you point out, Rancke, you could design your own (and pay the architect's fee) and then order a run of several of them and get the 10% discount on the second and later ships.

I'm a bit confused by the number of six standard ship design plans mentioned in the second sentence and when I counted ships listed two sentences later my count is seven.

1. Adding up the required tonnage for the engineering spaces the scout/courier, free trader, and yacht use one of the six standard hulls that get both a reduced price and reduced build times plus the quantity discount for being mass produced. The Consolidated CT Errata indicates that these three designs are missing the notation they are built using the standard hull table since they meet the main compartment and engineering section tonnage requirements. Total standard ship design plans and standard hulls = 3

2. Per the standard hull table a 400 ton hull dedicates 50 tons to the engineering section and a 600 ton hull dedicates 85 tons.

The engineering space on the 400 ton subsidized merchant is 35 tons and the subsidized liner's has an 83 ton engineering section. Both of which fail to meet the stand hull engineering section requirements. Running the two hulls through the Book 2 design and construction section as custom hulls hull MCr and construction time do not match those found in the background. However the construction times for both hulls match the times listed on the Standard Hull tables. Applying the reduced price MCr returns the corrected MCr listed in the Consolidated CT Errata. The way to make these to qualify for the standard hull benefits the fix was to state that the missing engineering tonnages are set aside for drive and power plant upgrades. By using the fix the subsidized merchant and subsidized liner are now standard hulls. Total standard ship design plans and standard hulls = 2

3. The mercenary cruiser and patrol cruiser do not use any of the six standard hull designs and pay the custom hull price of MCr0.01 x Hull tons or a minimum MCr20 and follow the build times listed in the last column of the Drive Potential table on Book 2 2nd edition 1981 page 22. Since their plans can be at almost any shipyard and have been built in quantity for a long time they qualify for the 10% quantity discount. Total standard ship design plans = 2

The total number of Book 2 2nd edition 1981 standard ship design plans is 3 + 2 + 2 = 7.

A majority of the designs mentioned in other Traveller material are considered to be standard designs unless the background details somehow note the design is not one commonly encountered. The Annic Nova is the non-standard ship design plan that comes to mind. Personally, I consider the express boat designed using Book 2 1st edition 1977 to be a custom design even though the main compartment and engineering section tonnages match the standard hull requirements.

Then there are the six standard hulls. The standard hull is supposedly something they produce so frequently that they give you a discount for the hull itself, though not for the other goodies. Whether that's because the hull is being shipped in prefab from Rhylanor or because the yards themselves are turning them out, that's up to the gamemaster. The standard hulls are a 100dT hull with a 15 dT engine compartment (used for the Scout/Courier), a 200 dT hull with a 15 dT engine compartment (used for the Free Trader and, from its price, the Yacht), a 400 dT hull with a 50 dT engine compartment (used for the Subsidized Merchant, though with a smaller engine installed and 15 dT of unused drive space), a 600 dT hull with an 85 dT engine compartment (used for the Subsidized Liner), an 800 dT hull with an 165 dT engine compartment, and a 1000 dT hull with an 165 dT engine compartment.

Cool we matched, I think we did anyway, thinking that the scout/courier, free trader, and yacht meet the requirements straight off the design plans.
I'm in agreement that the subsidized merchant with 15 tons reserved for engineering upgrades also meets the standard hull requirements.

The subsidized liner's has an engineering section of Jump Drive-J at 50 tons + Maneuver Drive-C at 5 tons + Power Plant-J at 28 tons is a total of 83 tons. This is 2 tons shy, but when being designated as reserved space for an engineering section upgrade qualifies for the standard hull reduction benefits.

The two cruisers in the mix are custom hulls since they are not broken down into tonnage requirements for the main compartment and engineering section. They are standard designs because they are commonly seen and apparently their ship designs can be purchased from almost any shipyard. Of course Book 2 and Book 5 are for Third Imperium designs. The Alien modules make needed modifications to the design and construction process based on the background material for the eight aliens covered.

As snrdg points out, the Broadsword is said to use a custom hull (though it is a standard design), so we do not in fact have any ship known to use the supposedly standard 800 dT or 1000 dT hulls (which, since no one is getting a discount for them, probably shouldn't be a surprise).

Technically the patrol cruiser is a custom hull and has standard design plans available for purchase. The patrol cruiser's engineering section is 65 tons while a standard 400 ton hull allocates 50 tons to the engineering section. The patrol cruiser's hull cost and build time are consistent with a custom hull. The Consolidated CT Errata entry for the patrol cruiser does not mention that the custom hull annotation is missing.

Net result is that the scout, free trader, subsidized merchant and so forth get a discounted hull and then also get a 10% discount on top of that. That's one of the several reasons they cost less in CT Book 2 than they do in High Guard.

Question remains whether we should continue citing the 800 and 1000 as standard hulls when there's no discount for them and no ship based on them. 185 dT engine space can fit a set of R/R/Rs, which is 4G/Jump-4 for an 800 dT, which is warship territory - an odd class to make a standard hull. Or you could do an SMS, or a THT, or a UDU, but that accomplishes precisely nothing in an 800 other than to slow it down. An interesting option is an MVV: 5G/Jump-3, again likely a warship. Maybe they don't get discounts but build faster because they're intended to be warship hulls.

In a 1000, it gives you 3G/Jump-3 (and is oversized since a Q/Q/Q does as well at lower cost and with 10 dT room to spare). And, again, the other combinations do nothing but slow the ship down - except an interesting option here is a KXX: 6G/Jump-2, likely a warship.

The 800 and 1,000 ton standard hulls do get a discount on build time, unfortunately they don't get a price discount that the other four standard hulls receive.

I'm divided about keeping 800 and 1,000 ton standard hulls. As Carlobrand determined the first three standard hulls get a 40% price discount and the 600 ton hull get an 80%. Applying at least an 80% discount to the 800 and 1,000 ton hulls MCr I'd say keep them. But, I'd be more inclined to drop them from the list if the only discount is a couple of months of the build time.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Hans,

Game rules are simplifications of reality. As such you have to look at what aspect of reality they reflect to interpret them if they are ambiguous.


They qualify for a discount under TCS (or is it HG? Or both?). First ship in a production run costs full price; every subsequent ship qualifies for time and cost discount. Perhaps standard ship hulls qualify for the discount on the first ship only because shipyards tend to be tooled up for them already, figuratively speaking. Or perhaps the big shipyards are always building the standard ships so they are literally tooled up for them. Or something like that.

Hans, I am only discussing Book 2 2nd edition 1981standard ship design plan requirements. Unfortunately, none of the designs that got built using Book 2 1st edition appear to have been updated to meet the changes made in Book 2 2nd edition. My first step is see what changes occur when the published designs get updated from Book 2 1st edition designs to Book 2 2nd edition. Once that is accomplished then I will try my hand at converting these designs to HG2 and TCS rules.

Under Book 2 2nd edition if the Ancker Shipyard is the only place to get the 400 ton J1, J2, and/or J3 hulls then the hull, at least in my understanding, does not meet "The following ships are standard designs available at almost any shipyards." requirement for the 10% quantity discount.

If both Ancker Shipyard and Bilstein Yards have the same 400 ton J1, J2, and/or J3 standard ship designs I their files and the only difference was that Ancker produced lots of them while Gbilstein produced did a few over the same time period by Book 2 rules I'd give the hull the 10% quantity discount.

If the Ancker and Blistein 400 ton hulls allocated the required tonnages to the main compartment and engineering section the hull also qualifies for the standard hull reductions in price and build time.

It was just an example of a bit of setting that didn't conform ecaxtly to the rules. Or rather, the other way around.


If any shipyard is tooled up to build a particular model, that model qualifies for a discount, no matter how unusual it is. That's reality. There are sound reasons to stick to game rules, but that don't make them realistic by fiat.

But I'm diverging from the topic. All I wanted was what I said above: Suggest that when interpreting an ambiguous rule, you consider just what underlying reality the rule is supposed to reflect. (I know that sometimes you have to ignore reality to a greater or lesser extent to make a rule work, but it's often a good place to start).


Hans

Hans I agree that under different design and construction process, Book 2 2n edition versus HG2/TCS, there are different ways to interpret ambiguous rules.

My original intent with this topic thread was to bring to the attention of Donald McKinney and others that the Book 2 Standard Hull table does not have a price reduction for 800 and 1,000 ton hulls.

My more involved intention is to go through designs and provide possible errata by
1. Updating designs created using Book 2 1st edition to Book 2 2nd edition design and construction process.

2. Incorporated Book 2 2nd edition jump drives, maneuver drives, and power plants into Book 5 HG2/TCS designs.

3. Run the designs as straight Book 5 HG2/TCS design and construction process.

As usual with my topics we have drifted onto other related subjects.

Thank you for the new trails to investigate.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Carlobrand

As usual I missed the part that was made in reply to Post 435 which I think does a better job.

#1 is not supported in the rules as written; see below. I'd also point out that we're drifting into a discussion of his IMTU ideas, which is not what this thread is for. Also drifting into debate on the subject of standard hulls, and I understand they prefer we debate issues elsewhere and then bring the consensus here. Perhaps we should discuss the standard hull issue at length in a separate post?

The source I used is FFE 001 Books 0-8 The Classic Books 2000 2nd printing that has Book 2 Starships 1977, 1981 2nd edition 6th printing.

You are right I did not write my understanding of the rules exactly as written, however I disagree that "From Book 2 1981 page 18 I understand that standard designs are 1. Available at almost any shipyard" is not supported by Book 2 2nd edition page 18.

The exact wording is "The following ships are standard designs available at almost any shipyard." From earlier comments a majority of the ships introduced by supplements, adventures, and other sources usually qualify as standard designs.

Item "2. All hulls have the same performance characteristics and design details." was bent a bit to again account for other ships that have been introduced into the TU. From Book 2 page 18

"Each description indicates the ship's performance and details of its design."

Gads, my book gremlins have relented and provided the answer of which MCr is included in the design details on pp. 18 -19 which is " Design plans for each are available for Cr100; prices shown reflect the 105 reduction in price normally allowed standard designs.

Item "3. Many hulls have been built." not specifically supported, however from the TU background there are ample indications some hull designs have been around for many years, maybe hundreds of years.

Yep, I've once again drifted off topic. thank you for mentioning the fact, and recommending we take this debate down to the CT forum.

To clarify:
CT Book 2: "There are a number of standard design plans available ... Standard starship plans available are: (list of ships and small craft) ... Other standard plans may be available at various localities. ...Standard designs are easier to produce; their prices reflect a 10% reduction in normal pricing."

Book 2 deals with player's eye view, so does not address how a design becomes standard. And, that's a different issue from a standard hull: a player may use a standard hull in a custom design of his own making, or a standard design may use a custom hull (ex.: Broadsword). There are no Book-2 rules governing how a hull becomes standard, though of course a gamemaster is free to set whatever rules he prefers for his own TU.

CT High Guard II: "Once a ship is built, a certain familiarity with the requirements of construction is gained by the building crews, and a shipyard can then produce such ships more rapidly and with greater efficiency. Additional identical ships built following the initial ship in a class can be completed in 80% of the original time at 80% of the original construction cost."

High Guard offers a better discount but does not have standard hulls. Which discount applies depends on which rule system you choose to design the ship under. However, High Guard does clarify how a ship becomes a standard design.

CT TCS: "When more than one vessel ... is constructed using the same or similar statistics ..., the second and all subsequent vessels are produced at 80% of the construction cost of the original vessel. The architect's fee need not be paid again."

Note that TCS does not set a per-yard requirement. Once you've built the first ship of the class, you get the discount and the quicker build time at any system capable of building the ship. Note also that TCS is a wargame with rules intended to simplify game play. The fact that they do not set a per-yard requirement cannot be taken as a ruling on how the role-play milieu does things. There otherwise being no ruling on the subject, I suggest it's up to the gamemaster.

As to the subject of the six standard hulls, question is whether the two that do not have a discount should be given a discount to conform with the Book 2 statement, "The standard hulls table shows six standard hulls which are available at reduced prices and construction times," whether the statement itself should be edited, or whether the two standard hulls which do not receive a discount should simply be omitted, since there's no canon ship based on them and they serve little practical use. Or whether we should just write the thing off as too inconsequential an error to bother putting into the official errata.

HG2 also attempts to simplify combat and in my opinion any hull that is built using the Tonnage table are standard designs. Building a 1,600 ton hull would be a custom hull.

Thanks again for the reminder.

 

[Carlobrand]

Minor note regarding the CT Errata 1.1 entry on the Kinunir:

15 High Survivability Capsules are logged as 2.50 dTons, which would make them 1/6 of a dTon each, but the reference from which they're drawn, Striker Book 2, shows them as 1/2 dTon each. Total for the 15 capsules should be 7.5 dTons.