CT: HG Ship's Troops and the medical section

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon all,

The Consolidated CT Errata by Donald McKinney adds the Medical section requirements that were missed when High Guard Book 5 2nd edition was printed. In the document the size of the Medical Staff is 1 per 240 crew and ship's troops.

A ship with a crew of 1,100 sailors and 100 Ships troops requires 5 medical staff in addition to the Medical Officer in the Command Section.

Ship's Troops, per Book 5, are organized according to Mercenary Book 4 which has also has a section with rules for Medics.

Book 4 page 29 indicates that each platoon must have some level of medical care based on Medical Points equal to 10% of the platoon's strength. A dedicated medic gets 2 x Medic Skill level in Medical Skill Points and individuals receive a 1 Medical Skill Point for every skill level of Medic they have. The skill points of individuals with medic skill and dedicated medics can be used separately or combined to meet or exceed the calculated Medical Skill points.

1 casualty clearing station with at least one designated medic with a skill of Medic-2 or higher is required per company.

The method for determining Mercenary Medics, in my opinion, is not very compatible with High Guard and reminded me that Striker might have something that might work better.

From Striker Book 2 Section III: Campaign Rules Rule 68: Support Personnel A. Medical Personnel pp. 34 and 35.

Medical Personnel
1 medic with medical kit per 30 men +
1 Company Casualty Clearing Station with 1 medic per 75 men +
1 Battalion Aid Station with 1 medic per 150 men.

I'm guessing at the composition of the Ship's Troop are a reinforced platoon or short company with a company command group of 18 and 2 platoons of 41 men each for a total 100 Striker medical personnel requirement breaks down as follows:

100/30 = 3.333 = 3 medics +

100/75 = 1.333 medics and 1 Casualty Clearing Station = 1 medic and 1 Casualty Clearing Station +

100/150 = .666 medics and 1 Aid Station = 1 medic and 1 Aid Station.

At minimum I see that there are 3 medics one assigned to the company command group, and one assigned to each of the platoon command groups. Being a short company or reinforced platoon the medics for the casualty clearing and aid stations may be included without the facilities.

The ship would have a minimum total of 6 in the Ship's Medical section and 3 Ship's Troops medics. If the government was feeling generous they might include the company casualty station and associated medic and being really generous they might include the aid station medic but not the aid station.

When the troops are not deployed this ship has a medical staff of between 9 and 11 personnel. Which to me makes more sense than just 6.

Does this sound like a workable solution? Of course this only works if my typing makes sense to others.;-)

 

[Whipsnade]

Does this sound like a workable solution?

No, because you're over thinking the problem.

HG2 provides a somewhat quick method of designing and fighting very large starships in a somewhat quick manner. Striker provides a time consuming method of designing and fighting relatively small numbers of ground forces in a time consuming manner. Both deal with differing levels of detail.

Both rule sets are designed to do two different things.

The HG2 rule allows me, as a ship designer, to quickly calculate how many medics a given military unit will require without also having to design the military unit. It's a matter of simply saying "X troops need Y medics..." and not saying "I've got his many command groups, this many clearing sations, this many platoons, etc., etc., and so I'll need this many medics and this many medical skill levels...".

When I'm building a ship I want one level of detail and the Striker rule goes beyond that level.

 

[BytePro]

Aside from the metagame LOD issues, wouldn't one count medics for each separately?

I.e. shipboard medics would be for crew (including shipboard security) and passengers, not troops.

Troops would have their own requirements, I would think, especially as field medic requirements would probably differ from shipboard (both in number and in specialties) and troop medics would go where the troops go and would answer to the troop command, not the shipboard medical complement?

 

[Carlobrand]

Yes ... and yet no.

As you point out, the ship's troops are separately organized (whether by Book 4 rules or Striker rules is according to preference). They have their own medical staff. These would supplement and assist the ship's medical section when aboard, but they deploy with the troops when the troops are sent down - the ship can not count on their assistance and needs to be able to handle its own affairs if battle overtakes it while troops are aground.

So yes, there would be many more medically skilled professionals aboard than are reflected by the Book-5 rule errata - and yet no, because some of those professionals are not under the command and control of the medical section but instead under command of the senior troop officer.

The ship's organization reflects the chain of command and control. However, that doesn't mean the ship is organized that way at all times. If an individual's noncombat duty station is not needed during battle, that individual will be assigned a battle station under another section's command. Some will become orderlies and aides for the Medical section, some (along with ship's troops) will become damage control parties under the Engineering section, and so forth. If battle is long, Food Service may draft a few to run food to the crew at battle stations, since they obviously aren't going to be able to go to the Ship's Mess to eat.

I interpret the High Guard medical staff rules to apply solely to the ship's infirmary. This staff remains with the ship, in the infirmary, doing their medical duty under the command of the senior physician. Under noncombat circumstances they are adequate to meet shipboard needs; there are only so many illnesses and injuries when not in combat. This staff forms the professional core of the medical section - the ones with the knowledge and skills needed to diagnose and to decide and administer treatment. Under battle conditions, there would be crewmen with other peacetime posts who's battle station would be the infirmary - clerks, for example. These would have some very basic medical training and would act as nurse's aides, stretcher bearers, and the like, freeing the medical staff from the "grunt" work and allowing the physician and nurses to focus on triage and care. They wouldn't ordinarily be counted among the medical staff - they're technically out of Services - but they would supplement and strengthen the Medical section (and other sections) during battle, when there is no call or need for their usual duties.

 

[far-trader]

FWIW my take on it would be dependant on the types of troops carried.

If primarily Ships Troops (generally not deployed distant from the ship), used for aboard security, damage control, boarding actions, perimeter and MP action when docked/landed, and such then the HG Medical section is all that is needed. The Ships Troops are part of the crew.

If primarily Carried Troops (generally only deployed distant from the ship), used for ground operations, perhaps supported by ortillery and air-support from the ship, or even simple transported to the world to fight, and such then the HG Medical section does not count them as part of the crew for the calculation, and they will need and have their own embedded medical units, separate from the ships medical section.

HG really doesn't seem to make that distinction though. So I'm adding yet another (unnecessary) wrinkle/complication

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Whipsnade,

Thank you for the reply,

I'm confused my copy of HG does not provide information on how to organize ship's troops or how to calculate the number of medics the troops require. HG does refer me to Mercenary Book 4 which provides guidelines for organizing military units and a method for calculating Medical Skill Points for units of platoon size or larger not how many medics are required.

My estimate of what type of unit a Ship's Troops of 100 is based on Mercenary Book 4 details on page 29 and the Unit Size Table on page 33, not from Striker.

The 100 Ship's Troops using Mercenary Medic rules is larger than a platoon and short of a company.

Platoons, I'm guess the larger unit sizes, require Medical Skill Points equal to 10% of the unit size or 100 x 10% = 10 Medical Skill Points.

Dedicated Medics Medical Skill Levels equals 2 Medical Skill Points while a combatant's Medical Skill is 1 to 1.

10 combatants with Medical-1 satisfy the requirement for covering the 10 Medic Skill Points. Of course if the 10 combatants are busy mending casualties the unit has lost 20% of their fire power. Not good in my opinion.

Looking at Book 2 Medical Skill description I'm guessing that the 100 Ship's troops best bet would be 1 Dedicated Medic Medical Skill-3 and 2 Medics with Medical Skill-2.

Medic Total = 3

At Company level you need a casualty clearing station and at least 1 Medic with Medical-2 or higher. If the Ship's Troop are a short company then the unit has a casualty clearing station and a third dedicate medic with Medical-2 skill level.

Medic Total = 3 + 1 = 4

Units of company size and larger without access to local medical facilities should have as a minimum 1 surgeon and several assistants.

I think the Ship's medical section would cover this one.

Striker Medical Personnel:

1 medic with medical kit per 30 men
1 medic per 75 men appears to be at the company level and requires 1 casualty clearing station per company.
1 medic per 150 men appears to be at the battalion level and required 1 aid station per battalion.

1 medic per 30 troops = 100/30 = 3.3333 medics = 3 medics

1 medic per 75 troops = 100/75 = 1.333 medics = 1 medic and 1 Casualty Clearing Station

1 medic per 150 troops = 100/150 = 0.666 medics = 1 medic and 1 battalion aid station

Total is 4 if you round the calculation down, 5 if by stand rounding or rounding up.

High Guard crew calculations don't make one figure out the Navigators skill levels and Mercenary Medical personnel requirements do. To me the Striker medical personnel requirements are at the same level as HG and Mercenary has more detail.

Again thank you for the comments and a different point of view.

No, because you're over thinking the problem.

HG2 provides a somewhat quick method of designing and fighting very large starships in a somewhat quick manner. Striker provides a time consuming method of designing and fighting relatively small numbers of ground forces in a time consuming manner. Both deal with differing levels of detail.

Both rule sets are designed to do two different things.

The HG2 rule allows me, as a ship designer, to quickly calculate how many medics a given military unit will require without also having to design the military unit. It's a matter of simply saying "X troops need Y medics..." and not saying "I've got his many command groups, this many clearing sations, this many platoons, etc., etc., and so I'll need this many medics and this many medical skill levels...".

When I'm building a ship I want one level of detail and the Striker rule goes beyond that level.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening BytePro,

High Guard does say that Ship's Troops are organized according to Mercenary Book 4. Unfortunately, the medical personnel requirement, in my opinion, doesn't fit with the crew requirements per High Guard.

Striker's medical personnel rule, again in my open, matches the crew format used in High Guard for the Medical Section requirements per the latest version of the Consolidated CT Errata document manged by Donald McKinney. 1 medic per 240 ships crew + Medical Officer required by the Command Section.

Striker's Medical requirement.

First level requirement is 1 medic with medical kit per 30 men

Second level 1 casualty clearing station per company and 1 medic per 50 men

Third level 1 aid station per battalion and 1 medic per 150 men.


Again thanks for the comments

Aside from the metagame LOD issues, wouldn't one count medics for each separately?

I.e. shipboard medics would be for crew (including shipboard security) and passengers, not troops.

Troops would have their own requirements, I would think, especially as field medic requirements would probably differ from shipboard (both in number and in specialties) and troop medics would go where the troops go and would answer to the troop command, not the shipboard medical complement?

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Carlobrand,

I'm leaning toward having medical personnel calculated separately for ship's crew and ship's troops.

I appreciate the comments.

Yes ... and yet no.

As you point out, the ship's troops are separately organized (whether by Book 4 rules or Striker rules is according to preference). They have their own medical staff. These would supplement and assist the ship's medical section when aboard, but they deploy with the troops when the troops are sent down - the ship can not count on their assistance and needs to be able to handle its own affairs if battle overtakes it while troops are aground.

So yes, there would be many more medically skilled professionals aboard than are reflected by the Book-5 rule errata - and yet no, because some of those professionals are not under the command and control of the medical section but instead under command of the senior troop officer.

The ship's organization reflects the chain of command and control. However, that doesn't mean the ship is organized that way at all times. If an individual's noncombat duty station is not needed during battle, that individual will be assigned a battle station under another section's command. Some will become orderlies and aides for the Medical section, some (along with ship's troops) will become damage control parties under the Engineering section, and so forth. If battle is long, Food Service may draft a few to run food to the crew at battle stations, since they obviously aren't going to be able to go to the Ship's Mess to eat.

I interpret the High Guard medical staff rules to apply solely to the ship's infirmary. This staff remains with the ship, in the infirmary, doing their medical duty under the command of the senior physician. Under noncombat circumstances they are adequate to meet shipboard needs; there are only so many illnesses and injuries when not in combat. This staff forms the professional core of the medical section - the ones with the knowledge and skills needed to diagnose and to decide and administer treatment. Under battle conditions, there would be crewmen with other peacetime posts who's battle station would be the infirmary - clerks, for example. These would have some very basic medical training and would act as nurse's aides, stretcher bearers, and the like, freeing the medical staff from the "grunt" work and allowing the physician and nurses to focus on triage and care. They wouldn't ordinarily be counted among the medical staff - they're technically out of Services - but they would supplement and strengthen the Medical section (and other sections) during battle, when there is no call or need for their usual duties.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening far-trader,

Per HG page 33 "Ship's troops often fill the role of security forces aboard ship, and are used for military adventures by the commander where necessary."

My take of "and are used for military adventures by the commander where necessary." means the troops can be used for things like attacking a pirate/smuggler/rebel base or deployed to reinforce an embassy or military base.

Not to mention that per HG Ship's Troops are organized following Mercenary rules unless you prefer Striker rules that appear to fit with the HG and Mercenary systems.

Thanks for making waves, I need a little more, okay a lot, of practice surfing;-)

FWIW my take on it would be dependant on the types of troops carried.

If primarily Ships Troops (generally not deployed distant from the ship), used for aboard security, damage control, boarding actions, perimeter and MP action when docked/landed, and such then the HG Medical section is all that is needed. The Ships Troops are part of the crew.

If primarily Carried Troops (generally only deployed distant from the ship), used for ground operations, perhaps supported by ortillery and air-support from the ship, or even simple transported to the world to fight, and such then the HG Medical section does not count them as part of the crew for the calculation, and they will need and have their own embedded medical units, separate from the ships medical section.

HG really doesn't seem to make that distinction though. So I'm adding yet another (unnecessary) wrinkle/complication

 

[dean]

For ship's troops I am thinking "Marines" in the sense that these folks ARE in fact in the "Naval" chain of command. Most larger USN vessels have a complement of USMC troops for local security and "military adventures" if called for.

"Army" troops being transported in a vessel would be in a separate chain-of-command and would less likely be used to fulfill any meaningful function on board the vessel as these folks would lack the proper training and familiarity with the vessel and technology to do the job in a efficient, orderly, military fashion. Basically, they are along for the ride.

Which may account for the apparent differences in the TO&E.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Of course, if you organize according to current procedure in the US (and some other places), the medics in the Marine unit are Navy personnel. They are probably counted toward the ship's medical complement when the troops are embarked, but the plan includes enough other medical personnel to have the proper complement when those troops disembark.

Of course, Ship's Troops aren't going to be dropping into the gravity well to assault somewhere on the planet. The are essentially internal security for the ship, or for boarding actions. So, there really isn't that much of a difference.

 

[dean]

Of course, if you organize according to current procedure in the US (and some other places), the medics in the Marine unit are Navy personnel. They are probably counted toward the ship's medical complement when the troops are embarked, but the plan includes enough other medical personnel to have the proper complement when those troops disembark.

Of course, Ship's Troops aren't going to be dropping into the gravity well to assault somewhere on the planet. The are essentially internal security for the ship, or for boarding actions. So, there really isn't that much of a difference.

The troops used for internal security and the like are not part of the chain of command of the MAU. They are assigned with and to the vessel, and don't make the landing in either case.

Same goes, of course, to the medical corpsmen assigned to the vessel; the ones in the MAU fall into that CoC and make the "drops". You'd be surprised at the amount of pride the corpsmen assigned to the MAUs have, and they believe themselves superior to the "pill pushers" assigned to the ships.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Dean,

Thank you for the reply.

A vessel that is part of a naval organization probably has Ship's Troops that are something akin to the Marines (US, Britain, and any other country that maintains such a force.).

Mercenaries and Army units could also be designated as Ship's Troops if the ship the government or organization doesn't have a Navy or support a forces like the Marines.

Don't say such things in front of Marines, since they would take exception and might cause the one saying a bit of discomfort. ;-)

For ship's troops I am thinking "Marines" in the sense that these folks ARE in fact in the "Naval" chain of command. Most larger USN vessels have a complement of USMC troops for local security and "military adventures" if called for.

"Army" troops being transported in a vessel would be in a separate chain-of-command and would less likely be used to fulfill any meaningful function on board the vessel as these folks would lack the proper training and familiarity with the vessel and technology to do the job in a efficient, orderly, military fashion. Basically, they are along for the ride.

Which may account for the apparent differences in the TO&E.

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon Fritz Brown,

Yes, the Navy supplies the medics however the best medics learn to be Marines.

From HG page 33:

Ship's troops often fill the role of (1) security forces aboard ship, and (2) are used for military adventures by the (ship's) commander where necessary.

Ship's troops are also used for (3) damage control, (4) manning some weapons (my take are turret weapons using the gunnery skill), and (5) boarding actions.

The section "are used for military adventures by the (ship's) commander where necessary", in my opinion could be "dropping (Ship's troops) into the gravity well to assault somewhere on the planet." I might be mistaken but Marines have been landed on a lot of shores, which is similar in my opinion, to being dropped down a planet's gravity well to assault a target.

Here are two links to sources with documents about Marines:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usmc/history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps

Again thanks for the reply

Of course, if you organize according to current procedure in the US (and some other places), the medics in the Marine unit are Navy personnel. They are probably counted toward the ship's medical complement when the troops are embarked, but the plan includes enough other medical personnel to have the proper complement when those troops disembark.

Of course, Ship's Troops aren't going to be dropping into the gravity well to assault somewhere on the planet. The are essentially internal security for the ship, or for boarding actions. So, there really isn't that much of a difference.

 

[far-trader]

Yes, the Navy supplies the medics however the best medics learn to be Marines.

I'm not going near that one

From HG page 33:

Ship's troops often fill the role of (1) security forces aboard ship, and (2) are used for military adventures by the (ship's) commander where necessary.

Ship's troops are also used for (3) damage control, (4) manning some weapons (my take are turret weapons using the gunnery skill), and (5) boarding actions.

The section "are used for military adventures by the (ship's) commander where necessary", in my opinion could be "dropping (Ship's troops) into the gravity well to assault somewhere on the planet." I might be mistaken but Marines have been landed on a lot of shores, which is similar in my opinion, to being dropped down a planet's gravity well to assault a target.

And in some other opinions not. Ship's Troops "used for military adventures by the (ship's) commander where necessary" are not the same thing as ground combat. That's the distinction here that you seem to be missing.

Ship's Troops = Ship's Medical (use HG) : These troops do not generally engage in away action (planetside, unsupported by Navy).

Carried Troops = Embedded Medical (use Mercenary) : These troops exclusively engage in away action (planetside, unsupported by Navy).

The bit about Ship's Troops being organized using Mercenary, imo, refers only to the basic structure of elements and command breakdown. They are still in the chain of command of the ship. Not that I don't think there'd be first-aid capable troopers, just as most if not all the Navy personnel would have a basic first-aid training. The Medical Section calculation is above that. And it replaces the Mercenary designated Medical skill level calculation and aid station requirements.

Carried Troops (if large enough) are going to have their own MASH units attached to cover the Mercenary medical requirements.

Carried Troops need to be designated and worked out separately from Ship's Troops.

There is no need to double the medical requirements for having Ship's Troops by doing both the HG and Mercenary calculations. Just use the HG one for Ship's Troops.

And if you want to build a troop carrier, to land an army, those are Carried Troops and you use Mercenary only to work up the unit. Just provide the ship with enough cargo hold space for the unit's landing craft (if required/desired), vehicles, support logistics, and bunks for transport.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy far trader,

My comment about Navy corpsmen integrating with the Marines actually came from reading entries on several web sites talking about Medics in various military units. Of course not touching the comment might be a better idea.


I have to disagree with a military adventure not being the same thing as ground combat.

Here is a scenario that I was in, not as a member of the Ship's Troops, however I did have to pilot the small craft to get them to the target.

The ship's Captain entered a system and found hostile forces in space and on the ground. The decision came down to land the Ship's Troops to support the local forces. In an early adventure my small craft pilot character performed a landing and extraction under similar conditions, which is why I got tagged.

I got the Ship's Troops down without a scratch, unfortunately after they had unloaded my luck ran out when the opposition got a missile or artillery round through that hit where I had landed. Red Shirt time;-)

The above is a military adventure in my book since the gal playing the Captain could have kept the Ship's Troops on board.

Here is another point of we see differently since my humble opinion is that Ship's Troop organization, without Striker, follows the same steps as creating a military unit in Mercenary. Of course the GM and players have the option of picking and choosing. My choice is to use a combination of Mercenary and Striker.

I can't see a ship that has a medical section of 5 sending one of them on a boarding action to take care of the wounded. Which is why, in my opinion, that Ship's Troops have there own medics.

Thanks for the insight, helpful as usual.

I'm not going near that one



And in some other opinions not. Ship's Troops "used for military adventures by the (ship's) commander where necessary" are not the same thing as ground combat. That's the distinction here that you seem to be missing.

Ship's Troops = Ship's Medical (use HG) : These troops do not generally engage in away action (planetside, unsupported by Navy).

Carried Troops = Embedded Medical (use Mercenary) : These troops exclusively engage in away action (planetside, unsupported by Navy).

The bit about Ship's Troops being organized using Mercenary, imo, refers only to the basic structure of elements and command breakdown. They are still in the chain of command of the ship. Not that I don't think there'd be first-aid capable troopers, just as most if not all the Navy personnel would have a basic first-aid training. The Medical Section calculation is above that. And it replaces the Mercenary designated Medical skill level calculation and aid station requirements.

Carried Troops (if large enough) are going to have their own MASH units attached to cover the Mercenary medical requirements.

Carried Troops need to be designated and worked out separately from Ship's Troops.

There is no need to double the medical requirements for having Ship's Troops by doing both the HG and Mercenary calculations. Just use the HG one for Ship's Troops.

And if you want to build a troop carrier, to land an army, those are Carried Troops and you use Mercenary only to work up the unit. Just provide the ship with enough cargo hold space for the unit's landing craft (if required/desired), vehicles, support logistics, and bunks for transport.

 

[far-trader]

I have to disagree with a military adventure not being the same thing as ground combat.

I think it's my failure to be clear enough, since we do seem close to agreement from your following, perhaps not on specifics but certainly the generalities

Here is a scenario that I was in...

(snip - see original post for details)

The above is a military adventure in my book since the gal playing the Captain could have kept the Ship's Troops on board.

I agree, that falls under the "military adventure" clause in my book. My failure in distinction is when I said ground combat I meant (as noted) "without ship support" and should have added "for the long haul". An "adventure" is a short sortie, like the one above you were in. A quick support action, inserted by ship logistics, medevac back to ship available, and extraction to ship again, after the short action. The Captain certainly wouldn't have intended the ship's troops so dispatched to be left to fend for themselves unsupported for any length of time, or to hold ground indefinitely. Those would be actions for carried troops, my "ground combat" action as opposed to the HG "military adventure" idea.

Here is another point of we see differently since my humble opinion is that Ship's Troop organization, without Striker, follows the same steps as creating a military unit in Mercenary. Of course the GM and players have the option of picking and choosing. My choice is to use a combination of Mercenary and Striker.

Yes, we do disagree here. I think you're over complicating it and duplicating the medical requirement in so doing. Which is not to say it's wrong, if the detailing enhances the game for you that's the main thing

I can't see a ship that has a medical section of 5 sending one of them on a boarding action to take care of the wounded.

Nope, they wouldn't. Casualties would be medevaced back to the ship for treatment beyond basic first aid (as imo all services include basic first aid training, call it Medical-0).

Which is why, in my opinion, that Ship's Troops do not have there own medics... BUT Carried Troops do have their own medics (seperate from ship's medics) becaue they will not expect to be supported or medevaced with any immediacy and will be in it for the long haul. Overgeneralizing but:

From MTU:

Marines; First in, first out. Army; Last in, last out. (which may be inspired by if not "borrowed" from somewhere else). Ship's Troops = Marines, Carried Troops = Army

Based loosely on:

Marines take ground, but the Army holds it. (or words to that effect as various Real Life unofficial service's motto)

Thanks for the insight, helpful as usual.

You're most welcome, for any help my ramblings accidentally leave behind

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening again far trader,

Vessel's over 1,000 tons that don't carry Ship's Troops are required to have 3 Ship's Service crew per 1,000 tons and only 2 per 1,000 tons with them. That third body provides ship "security (especially if there are no ship's troops aboard)" per High Guard page 33. The members of the Service crew Security detail, in my opinion, would not have additional medical personnel over what is provided by the ship's medical section.

To me a ship's full time crew is composed of the Command Section, Engineering, and Service Crew which count all the time for determining the Medical Section size. The list increases to include the Gunnery section when there are weapons systems installed, remove or disable the weapons then the Gunnery section is reduced to zero.

The flight section is another item I follow, but don't entirely agree with. Of course my mind set is based how the USN handles carried Craft. Small craft like the Captain's gig is part of the ship's equipment list and is operated by ship's crew, in High Guard from the Service Crew. A fighter squadron is a separate unit that has pilots, crews, and support staff assigned to them. The squadron rotates off the ship the crews and support staff goes away. The personnel, like the Flight control Officer could be assigned to the position full time or be an extra duty. The launch tube crew is probably permanently assigned and would be counted as part of the ships crew for Medical Section calculations. Unfortunately, I haven't quite figured out how to separate the launch tube crew and flight operations personnel easily, so I just run with the rules in High Guard.

Of course I totally missed the requirement for drivers for vehicles carried, which I'm not sorry I did miss. If the vehicle is a tank or something similar there is a permanently assigned driver so I don't see the need. An Air/Raft on the flip side requires a driver during operation and is provided by a member of the Service Crew or someone on board that has the proper skills.

Ship's Troops per HG are organized and equipped according to Mercenary, that least in my mind, means follows the rules for medics.

I agree that there are several ways, some even canon, that can be used to figure out ship's crew and other personnel requirements without being wrong.

Have a good one far trader.

I think it's my failure to be clear enough, since we do seem close to agreement from your following, perhaps not on specifics but certainly the generalities



I agree, that falls under the "military adventure" clause in my book. My failure in distinction is when I said ground combat I meant (as noted) "without ship support" and should have added "for the long haul". An "adventure" is a short sortie, like the one above you were in. A quick support action, inserted by ship logistics, medevac back to ship available, and extraction to ship again, after the short action. The Captain certainly wouldn't have intended the ship's troops so dispatched to be left to fend for themselves unsupported for any length of time, or to hold ground indefinitely. Those would be actions for carried troops, my "ground combat" action as opposed to the HG "military adventure" idea.



Yes, we do disagree here. I think you're over complicating it and duplicating the medical requirement in so doing. Which is not to say it's wrong, if the detailing enhances the game for you that's the main thing



Nope, they wouldn't. Casualties would be medevaced back to the ship for treatment beyond basic first aid (as imo all services include basic first aid training, call it Medical-0).

Which is why, in my opinion, that Ship's Troops do not have there own medics... BUT Carried Troops do have their own medics (seperate from ship's medics) becaue they will not expect to be supported or medevaced with any immediacy and will be in it for the long haul. Overgeneralizing but:

From MTU:

Marines; First in, first out. Army; Last in, last out. (which may be inspired by if not "borrowed" from somewhere else). Ship's Troops = Marines, Carried Troops = Army

Based loosely on:

Marines take ground, but the Army holds it. (or words to that effect as various Real Life unofficial service's motto)



You're most welcome, for any help my ramblings accidentally leave behind

 

[Carlobrand]

...Casualties would be medevaced back to the ship for treatment beyond basic first aid (as imo all services include basic first aid training, call it Medical-0).

Which is why, in my opinion, that Ship's Troops do not have there own medics... BUT Carried Troops do have their own medics (seperate from ship's medics) becaue they will not expect to be supported or medevaced with any immediacy and will be in it for the long haul. Overgeneralizing but:

From MTU:

Marines; First in, first out. Army; Last in, last out. (which may be inspired by if not "borrowed" from somewhere else). Ship's Troops = Marines, Carried Troops = Army

Based loosely on:

Marines take ground, but the Army holds it. (or words to that effect as various Real Life unofficial service's motto)

A couple of thoughts:

First, I think we need to be careful about comparing the paradigm for a far future in which a ship captain is at least a week's message away from any possible rear command structure or support with a paradigm in which forces with instantaneous communication with rear command and the expectation of quick support as needed are tailored to certain specific roles.

Which is a complicated way of saying the Traveller naval captain would indeed likely be using his ship's troops for planet-side adventures, since he otherwise would have a two-week wait to get anyone else out there for the job and would miss important opportunities in the process. Captains who miss opportunities can not expect to make Admiral.

That being said, while I agree that injured staff would be lifted back to the host ship at the first opportunity for long-term care, the landed force must be capable of handling injuries at the point of conflict and of providing urgent stabilizing care in the rear until the wounded can be evacuated. Unless you're dealing with batallion- or division-size or larger units - which would not be the case for ship's troops - that tends to be what the Traveller combat medic rules are trying to provide. Thus, the ship's troops would have embedded medics of their own on the same scale that similar Army or Marine units would. The only difference would be that, where an Army/Marine company would forward wounded from the company casualty station back to Battalion Aid or some similar battalion/division treatment center, the ship's troop forwards wounded from their casualty station to the ship's sickbay. Think of it as the difference between an ambulance medic, an emergency room, and the hospital receiving stabilized cases from the ER.

So, using the ship as evac site doesn't relieve the troop of the need to embed medics and have other company-level care (assuming they're at company strength) because those embeds are still needed for the pre-evac stabilization work that would ensure the trooper made it to the ship alive - and that's quite a bit more than your basic first aid when you're dealing with something like a sucking chest wound.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Carlobrand,

This is pretty much I how see Traveller Naval units working and how Ship's Troops could be used.

High Guard Ship's Troops mentions that a marine (or military) contingent can range in size from a squad to a regiment.

From Mercenary infantry, at least in my opinion, unit sizes range from (1) fire team, (2) squad, (3)section (optional), (4) platoon, (5) company, (6) battalion, and (7) brigade. The first six are described on pages 27 and 28. The Brigade is found on page 33 in the Unit Size Table.


Striker, like Mercenary, describes teams/crews, squads, sections, platoons, companies and battalions. Unlike Mercenary, Striker also provides guidelines for creating vehicle and weapons crews.

My guess is that since High Guard Ship's Troops can be battalion and regiment sized units they will have have the appropriate levels of medical care that can be deployed. When on board the ship the Ship's Troops medical personnel work with the Medical Section. If Ship's troops deployed the appropriate level of medical personnel will be deployed. Of course the Ship's Troops medical personnel a company level and might not get the chance to set-up because the troopers cleaned the clock of the opposition in a timely fashion.

Thanks for the feedback.

A couple of thoughts:

First, I think we need to be careful about comparing the paradigm for a far future in which a ship captain is at least a week's message away from any possible rear command structure or support with a paradigm in which forces with instantaneous communication with rear command and the expectation of quick support as needed are tailored to certain specific roles.

Which is a complicated way of saying the Traveller naval captain would indeed likely be using his ship's troops for planet-side adventures, since he otherwise would have a two-week wait to get anyone else out there for the job and would miss important opportunities in the process. Captains who miss opportunities can not expect to make Admiral.

That being said, while I agree that injured staff would be lifted back to the host ship at the first opportunity for long-term care, the landed force must be capable of handling injuries at the point of conflict and of providing urgent stabilizing care in the rear until the wounded can be evacuated. Unless you're dealing with batallion- or division-size or larger units - which would not be the case for ship's troops - that tends to be what the Traveller combat medic rules are trying to provide. Thus, the ship's troops would have embedded medics of their own on the same scale that similar Army or Marine units would. The only difference would be that, where an Army/Marine company would forward wounded from the company casualty station back to Battalion Aid or some similar battalion/division treatment center, the ship's troop forwards wounded from their casualty station to the ship's sickbay. Think of it as the difference between an ambulance medic, an emergency room, and the hospital receiving stabilized cases from the ER.

So, using the ship as evac site doesn't relieve the troop of the need to embed medics and have other company-level care (assuming they're at company strength) because those embeds are still needed for the pre-evac stabilization work that would ensure the trooper made it to the ship alive - and that's quite a bit more than your basic first aid when you're dealing with something like a sucking chest wound.