CT: HG Ship's Troops and the medical section

[Icosahedron]

Just butting in here, and I might have missed a crucial point or two because I'm not following the discussion closely...

Yes, ships troops / carried troops need their own medics, as do the ships crew, but considering that medical emergencies should be the exception rather than the rule outside of a battlefield, I'd imagine that the groups could cope with a degree of overlap. Under normal patrol conditions, the troops will be aboard and their medics will be available to aid the crew (you don't need battlefield level medical support on patrol - your troops only need crew-level support). When the troops are dispatched, OTOH, the remaining ships crew need fewer medics and can probably cope with a reduced medical complement for a few hours / couple of days.
Just my 2Cr.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Iscosahedron,

Thanks for dropping by and adding your view point on the the topic of ship's troops and ship's medical section.

The 75,000 ton Battle Crusier has a total crew of 607, four being the medical section, a Frozen Watch of 353 and carries a 100-man contigent of Ship's Troops, per the latest version of Andrew Vallance's HGS application. Per the Medical Section rules 1 medic is required per 240 crew members including Ship's Troops. I will calculate the Medical Section first for each of the three groups and then together to get a count.

Crew: 603 = round(603/240,0) = round(2.5125,0) = 3
Note that I dropped the four Medical Section from the crew total.

Frozen Watch: 353 = round(353/240,0) = round(1.4283,0) = 1

Ship's Troops: 100 = round(100/240,0) = round(0.4167) = 0

Ship's Medical Section = Crew + Frozen Watch + Ship's Troops

Round((603 + 353 + 100)/240,0) =
Round(1,056/240,0) =
Round(4.4,0) = 4

The Regal's total medical compliment is 4 + 1 Medical Officer from the Command Section providing care for 1,060 crew. They even have to care for themselves.

Inculding the

Deploying the Ship's Troops with 1 of the Ship's Medical staff reduces medical services by between 20 and 25%.

Just butting in here, and I might have missed a crucial point or two because I'm not following the discussion closely...

Yes, ships troops / carried troops need their own medics, as do the ships crew, but considering that medical emergencies should be the exception rather than the rule outside of a battlefield, I'd imagine that the groups could cope with a degree of overlap. Under normal patrol conditions, the troops will be aboard and their medics will be available to aid the crew (you don't need battlefield level medical support on patrol - your troops only need crew-level support). When the troops are dispatched, OTOH, the remaining ships crew need fewer medics and can probably cope with a reduced medical complement for a few hours / couple of days.
Just my 2Cr.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Icosahedron,

Nope, you are not butting in and I appreciate you sharing your ideas.

We appear to agree that Ship's Troops have permanent medical personnel that deploys with the unit and when on board ship work with the Ship's Medical Section.

My interest in Ship's Troops and Ship's Medical Section came about while testing Andrew Vallance's latest HGS app and reviewing the Trillion Credit Squadron's Battle Cruiser Regal data for Donald McKinney's update to the Consolidated CT Errata document. Which also made me read the Ship's Troops details very carefully only to discover I had missed the reference to Mercenary Book 4 for a couple of decades.

From HGS the Regal's compliment is about 1,060 broken down into 100 Ship's Troops, 353 Frozen Watch, and 607 crew members. HGS calculates that 4 of the crew are in the Medical Section with drops the crew count from 607 to 603.

My manual calculations for the Medical Section without including Ship's Troops returns:

round((603 + 353)/240,0) = round(956/240,0) = round(3.9833,0) = 4

My manual calculations for the Medical including Ship's Troops returns:
round((703 + 353)/240,0) = round(1,056/240,0) = round(4.4,0) = 4

If the Ship's Troops had a strength of 120, round(120/240,0), the medical section increases by 1.

Finally reading through Mercenary I checked to see what the Regal's Ships Troops would have for medical support.

Mercenary states that each platoon must have medical skill points equal to 10% of platoon strength and each company has a casualty clearing station manned by at least one dedicated medic with a Medical-2 skill set.

Dedicated medics, non-combatants, receive 2 Medical Skill Points per Medical Skill level.

Combatants, the bodies that break things, receive 1 Medical Skill Point per Medical Skill level. The example used on Mercenary page 29 indicates the minimum skill level for combatants is 1 to receive 1 Medical Skill Point.

Comparing the Regal's Ship's Troops of 100 to the Unit Size Table on Mercenary I estimate that they are somewhere between a Platoon and a Company and performed the calculations for Medics.

The Regal's contingent of 100 Ship's troops requires a pool of 10 Medical Skill Points. Round(100 x 0.1,0) = Round(10,0) = 10

To determine the number of dedicated medics I divided the 10 required Medical Medical Skill Points by the base number of 2 Skill Points per Medical Skill Level which results in 5 Medics. Round(10/2,0) = Round(5,0) = 5.

To determine the 5 medics Medical Skill level I used round(Medical Skill Points/Number of medics,0). Round(10/5,0) = Round(2,0) = 2.

Since combatants with Medical-1 or better can also contribute to the Medical Skill Points I calculated that 10 combatants with Medical-1 would also fill need.

Being stronger than a platoon but not quite a company per the Unit Size table the Ship's Troops may or may not have 1 casualty clearing station with 1 Medic with Medical-2 or better.

Here are some Ship's Troops Medical personnel combinations:

5 platoon level medics with Medical-2 and 1 casualty clearing station with 1 Medic having Medical-2 skill or better.

4 platoon level medics with Medical-2 and 1 casualty clearing station with 1 Medic having Medical-2 skill or better.

5 platoon level medics with Medical-2.

4 platoon level medics with Medical-2 and 1 Combatant with Medical-2.

4 platoon level medics with Medical-2 and 2 Combatants with Medical-1.

10 Combatants with Medical-1.

Striker's Medical Personnel is

1 medic per 30 men = round(100/30,0) = round(3.3333,0) = 3

Company Level: 1 casualty clearing station per company and 1 medic per 75 men = round(100/75,0) = round(1.3333,0) = 1

Battalion Level: 1 aid station per battalion and 1 medic per 150 men = round(100/150,0) = round(0.6667,0) = 1

Best case: 3 medics + 1 casualty clearing station with 1 medic + 1 aid station with 1 medic.

Next best: 3 medics + 1 casualty clearing station with 1 medic

Most probable case: 3 medics

To me having embedded medical personnel enhances the Ship's medical response.

Of course I have to admit that the level of detail is up to the individual so using Mercenary or Striker rules is an option.

Again thank you for providing feedback to the discussion.

Just butting in here, and I might have missed a crucial point or two because I'm not following the discussion closely...

Yes, ships troops / carried troops need their own medics, as do the ships crew, but considering that medical emergencies should be the exception rather than the rule outside of a battlefield, I'd imagine that the groups could cope with a degree of overlap. Under normal patrol conditions, the troops will be aboard and their medics will be available to aid the crew (you don't need battlefield level medical support on patrol - your troops only need crew-level support). When the troops are dispatched, OTOH, the remaining ships crew need fewer medics and can probably cope with a reduced medical complement for a few hours / couple of days.
Just my 2Cr.

 

[Whipsnade]

I'm confused my copy of HG does not provide information on how to organize ship's troops or how to calculate the number of medics the troops require.

You're not confused. You're merely over thinking the problem.

You're also looking for problems which do not exist.

The HG2 errata you already mentioned provides the rules on how to calculate the number of medics needed aboard. For people designing military units instead of starships, HG2 - a book dedicated to starships - correctly states that Mercenary should be used.

Different books with different levels of detail for different things.

My estimate of what type of unit a Ship's Troops of 100 is based on Mercenary Book 4 details on page 29 and the Unit Size Table on page 33, not from Striker.

That's fine. Hg2 has one method, Merc has another. We use the book about starships when designing starships and the book about mercenaries when designing military units.

I think the Ship's medical section would cover this one.

What you think only matters for your personal TU. The HG2 errata is already abundantly clear on the matter.

Use whichever method you want, but don't suggest I need to DESIGN THE DIVISION OF JUMP TROOPS BEING CARRIED DOWN TO THE SQUAD LEVEL AS PART OF DESIGNING A BATTLESHIP. Understand?

If you need to be anal enough to want determine the number of rivets holding up the toilet tissue dispenser in a Panther tank before playing a game of WW2 armor miniatures go right ahead. The rest of us already have enough detail for what we need.

Again thank you for the comments and a different point of view.

Thank you for your point of view.

 

[snrdg082102]

My apologies to the members of this board and I will cease posting any more comments to this topic.

 

[far-trader]

My apologies to the members of this board and I will cease posting any more comments to this topic.

I don't see a reason for either of the above

It's been interesting, part of different viewpoints makes it that. It'd be a short and boring discussion if we all agreed.

As an interesting aside, it made me have a quick look at the canon designs last night. While HG notes that Ship's Troops are between 1/1000tons and 1/100tons the actual usage in canon designs deviates widely beyond both those:

The Kinunir at 1250tons with 35 Marines is 1/35tons

The Gionetti at 30Ktons with 20 Marines is 1/1500tons

The Wind at 75Ktons with 40 Troops is 1/1875tons

Only two ships fall within the official range:

The AHL at 60Ktons with 150 Marines is 1/400tons

The Arakoine at 50Ktons with 100 Troops is 1/500tons

Also of interest is the distinction (without definition) of Marines vs Troops. Maybe a writer/designer or editor difference?

Anyway, also interesting is no canon design depicting any troop contingent larger than Company, despite there being a few very large ships and the HG suggestion that Troops may range up to a Regiment (patently ridiculous imo*).

* not that the Imperium doesn't field Regiments, or even Armies, only that I don't see Ship's Troops being more than Company strength, and the canon designs back me up on that

 

[BytePro]

I don't see a reason for either of the above

It's been interesting, part of different viewpoints makes it that. It'd be a short and boring discussion if we all agreed.

Ditto! (And well put far-trader!)

I've little interest in the level of detail of Merc, or Striker rules or even canon crew rules for large HG designs - but enjoyed the thread, nonetheless.

Thanks snrdg082102!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The section "are used for military adventures by the (ship's) commander where necessary", in my opinion could be "dropping (Ship's troops) into the gravity well to assault somewhere on the planet." I might be mistaken but Marines have been landed on a lot of shores, which is similar in my opinion, to being dropped down a planet's gravity well to assault a target.

I am *quite* familiar with US Marines as Ship's Troops. And, the ship's troops aren't going to be assaulting any beaches. Not because Marines don't do that sort of thing, but because ship's troops aren't organized or equipped for it (waaaaaay too few Marines, for one thing). They are organized and equipped for defending the ship. Now, they might commit a boarding action, or go ashore to perform some ... less polite method of diplomacy, but it will be something small and appropriate. Yes, Imperial Marines Ship's Troops might do a combat jump into a gravity well, but it will definitely be the exception, rather than the rule. If they get nicked by the Marine commander for the assault, and added back into the Drop Troop organization, then yeah - but they aren't Ship's Troops anymore, either.

Here is a scenario that I was in...

The singular of data is not anecdote. Also, my points have been to discuss current US military TTPs, not your TU. I'm just trying to give you a good feel for what "Ship's Troops" means in that realm, so you can make your own choices for your own TU.

As far as my opinion of that ship's captain, for sending those Marines down into a fracas? Dumb. Unless the fracas was pretty darn small, or sufficiently low-intensity, the number of troops she could send weren't going to be overwhelming force. If they were going to be just the right number, applied in just the right place, then perhaps. Despite any Marine protestations to the contrary, all the rules of warfare do still apply to them. Oh yes, it was a military adventure - and might show just why they don't do that sort of thing.

Not that I don't think there'd be first-aid capable troopers, just as most if not all the Navy personnel would have a basic first-aid training. The Medical Section calculation is above that.

I still think the Ship's Troops would have their own corpsman. It's what I saw on board a few Navy ships - he worked in the ship medical bay, but if the Marines had to go do something (boarding actions, say) he was supposed to go with them as their corpsman. He took a good deal of pride in that.

I agree that (except where someone is dual-purpose) the ship medical subsumes the Marines' requirements when shipboard as Ship's Troops.

Which is a complicated way of saying the Traveller naval captain would indeed likely be using his ship's troops for planet-side adventures, since he otherwise would have a two-week wait to get anyone else out there for the job and would miss important opportunities in the process. Captains who miss opportunities can not expect to make Admiral.

And captains who waste their ship's Marines on an ill-advised "adventure" can expect to be drummed out and working cleaning out the highport Vallero fresher facilities for the rest of their illustrious careers. Now, this is based on the difference between US concept of "Ship's Troops" as some of us have been discussing them, and what snrdg082102 seems to be hinting at with:

High Guard Ship's Troops mentions that a marine (or military) contingent can range in size from a squad to a regiment.

Because there is NO ship in the US Navy that carries a regiment of Marines as Ship's Troops. Anything that large is not Ship's Troops. (This modifies my above comments, btw.) It's the $.20, man.

That being said, while I agree that injured staff would be lifted back to the host ship at the first opportunity for long-term care, the landed force must be capable of handling injuries at the point of conflict and of providing urgent stabilizing care in the rear until the wounded can be evacuated.

Yes. This is why Marine units have corpsmen.

My apologies to the members of this board and I will cease posting any more comments to this topic.

Pish tosh. I think we might have exhausted the topic for now (didn't stop me from putting in my opinion, though ), but no apologies necessary. On this board, always try to figure out how posters are coming at your question - they might have a different set of lenses on than you do.

It's the $.20, man. => it's 20 cents, you know, a pair of dimes?

 

[Hyphen]

Also of interest is the distinction (without definition) of Marines vs Troops. Maybe a writer/designer or editor difference?

There's grounds for thinking it may be a function of title; e.g "Royal Marines" and US Marines" are obviously _marines_, but not every country has a branch of the services called "marines". In Trav terms, it's possible that planetary navies don't call their troops "marines", thus reserving the title for the "real" (i.e. Imperial) Marines. But that's just one possible answer.

On the other hand, I always took it as a function of role: ship's troops defend the ship, but marines _also_ may well be sent off in the ship's cutter to board someone else's ship.

The rest of the differences are just advertising copy, created in order to flog second-rate starships (the Kinunir, anyone?) to poor unsuspecting worlds...



<g, d & r>

 

[Whipsnade]

Gentlemen,

I've spoken privately with Tom and explained he niether has to apologize or abandon this thread. I also explained the serious problems with his suggestion and why the "problem" being solved isn't a problem at all.

The central problem here is the belief that Striker somehow produces "better" or "more accurate" numbers than HG2. Striker produces more detailed numbers but those numbers are neither better or more accurate because Striker's TO&E precepts are not universal.

Aramis explained to Tom in Tom's thread on vehicle squads that Striker's organizational precepts were heavily based on US organizational precepts. GDW used the army they knew, the army they had served in, as a guideline in writing the Striker rules set. If they used organizational precepts from other armies or even other time periods, the Striker rules would have produced different numbers of medics.

Because Striker system does not produce more accurate numbers, just numbers which are more detailed, because using the Striker system is time consuming, and because using the Striker system requires one to know a great many details about the military unit in question, employing the Striker system while designing ships provides a questionable level of detail at a burdensome cost.

The game here is not worth the candle because the candle in question is just as subjective as the one it is replacing.

Striker is not better ot more accurate. It is simply different.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening everyone,

Thank-you all for the responses to my last post, which means I lied about not posting here again since I have replied.

I did not mean to suggest that other canon rules associated with ship's troops and medics were more accurate or better. However they do as mentioned by Whipsnade and others details that allow me to see how Ship's Troops are organized.

Other than the above I'll refrain from making anymore comments, unless I lose my will power again.

 

[Carlobrand]

Goodness, I missed the fireworks. We seem to have silenced a poster. Here I thought the intent was to encourage the exchange of differing views.

Anyway...

...And captains who waste their ship's Marines on an ill-advised "adventure" can expect to be drummed out and working cleaning out the highport Vallero fresher facilities for the rest of their illustrious careers. ...

Yup. Fortune favors to the bold - but "bold" is defined retroactively, so maybe the statistical analysis fails on that point. If it works, you're bold. If it doesn't, you're foolhardy and destined for a nice rehabilitative stint at a recruiting command on some remote outback world with a truly lousy atmosphere - if they like you. Pray they like you.

I'm playing Traveller, a sci-fi game about a far future universe where communications are limited to the speed of travel, help is at least two weeks away and the only resources at your disposal during that time are whatever you carried with you. This is a universe Admiral Kutuzov would understand, a place where the commander on the spot has to make tough choices and act decisively. I don't really find the paradigm of the modern U.S. Marine/Navy useful for this setting, but it's well-documented and if people find it useful, then it will serve their need quite well and that's all that matters. However, it is not a paradigm that would create a Kutuzov - or a Hornblower, for that matter. For me, I prefer to seek for paradigms that fit the problems and challenges that the people of that milieu would face, paradigms appropriate to a young and dynamic frontier culture faced with circumstances that encourage initiative.

And if one of my captains, facing a two week lag between the time he sent a message for help and the time help arrived, and with only his ship's troops at hand, did NOT send down his troops when need warranted and tactical circumstances favored their use, and did NOT have his ship's troops trained, equipped and as ready for such events as they can manage short of becoming marines themselves, then he would be rolling for his mustering out benefits not too long afterward. This is the Spinward Marches, where merchant captains hope to retire with a ship of their own to start their own ventures, where a man can start as a private in the army and end his days in command of a merc batallion, where Zho mindreaders build secret bases deep within Imperial space and you might just run into tech of unimaginable advancement and the creatures who made it. It isn't a place for a captain who needs to wait two weeks for the right type of troops to arrive. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Carlobrand,

Will power failed again, :-(

In my opinion, from the research I am doing, High Guard Ship's Troops are the future incarnation of naval infantry just like the USMC, RM, or similar country's with a similar force, which can trace their roots back to the use Greek hoplites for boarding parties or the Romans with two legions that were attached to the Navy.

As mentioned here and in other posts on similar topics, Traveller has many of the same issues as countries with a maritime traditions have had with the most common being communication lag time. As a sailor I have been familiarized with how to use both long and short arms while standing a security watch. Ship's troops, by whatever name, have been trained is how to use the weapons at sea, in space, or on the beach/surface of a planet. The difference is in the equipment used to get the job done. My hat is off to the infantry for the jobs they do, even though I a submarine sailor think they are totally nuts.

Goodness, I missed the fireworks. We seem to have silenced a poster. Here I thought the intent was to encourage the exchange of differing views.

Anyway...



Yup. Fortune favors to the bold - but "bold" is defined retroactively, so maybe the statistical analysis fails on that point. If it works, you're bold. If it doesn't, you're foolhardy and destined for a nice rehabilitative stint at a recruiting command on some remote outback world with a truly lousy atmosphere - if they like you. Pray they like you.

I'm playing Traveller, a sci-fi game about a far future universe where communications are limited to the speed of travel, help is at least two weeks away and the only resources at your disposal during that time are whatever you carried with you. This is a universe Admiral Kutuzov would understand, a place where the commander on the spot has to make tough choices and act decisively. I don't really find the paradigm of the modern U.S. Marine/Navy useful for this setting, but it's well-documented and if people find it useful, then it will serve their need quite well and that's all that matters. However, it is not a paradigm that would create a Kutuzov - or a Hornblower, for that matter. For me, I prefer to seek for paradigms that fit the problems and challenges that the people of that milieu would face, paradigms appropriate to a young and dynamic frontier culture faced with circumstances that encourage initiative.

And if one of my captains, facing a two week lag between the time he sent a message for help and the time help arrived, and with only his ship's troops at hand, did NOT send down his troops when need warranted and tactical circumstances favored their use, and did NOT have his ship's troops trained, equipped and as ready for such events as they can manage short of becoming marines themselves, then he would be rolling for his mustering out benefits not too long afterward. This is the Spinward Marches, where merchant captains hope to retire with a ship of their own to start their own ventures, where a man can start as a private in the army and end his days in command of a merc batallion, where Zho mindreaders build secret bases deep within Imperial space and you might just run into tech of unimaginable advancement and the creatures who made it. It isn't a place for a captain who needs to wait two weeks for the right type of troops to arrive. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[McPerth]

First of all, once more, let me recognize my real practical military experience is nil, so, my point of view is purely civilian (although, as nurse I am ,y experience in medical needs is not nil).

I see a big difference in this way among ship troops and carried troops.

Ship troops are, IMHO, part of the crew, and so they may rely on the ship's medical services, and are accounted on them, so, they have no independent medical service. Even when deployed in ventures, they are under the comand of the ship's Captain (through the leader on the spot, whoever will it be).

Carried troops, on the other hand, are "biofreight" (no offense to any one that served as carried troops on a ship, and beforehand excuses if anyone feels offended), just passengers, and with their own chain of command outside that of the ship (only being in the ship's discipline as they will be under the local law elsewhere).

They may rely on the medical services aboard (which are likely to be larger than if no such "passengers" were to be carried. And, after all, their own medical equipment is likely to be inoperative, in the hold, and probably most of it dismantled and in crates), and even complement them with their own personnel while aboard, as they'll need to prepare for the new world they are to deploy on (applying vaccinations, etc...), and they are likely to be on another ship on their next trip.

So, I think the ship's troops have no own separate medical service, relying fully on the ship's, while carried troops are a different command (even if under the ship's Captain rule while aboard) with their own medical service.

And one more complication will be if those carried troops are carried in low passage, something I envision for very large and long distance troop moves, as they will need more medical personnel to keep for them...

 

[Carlobrand]

... My hat is off to the infantry for the jobs they do, even though I a submarine sailor think they are totally nuts.

Wait ... you go to sea in ships that START the battle sunk, your only defense against the other guy finishing the job is your wits and a bit of luck, and your hat is off to them? Dude, my hat is off to you!

 

[snrdg082102]

Yes, remember we have a little more than our wits the fast attack, at least most of the newer ones, have torpedoes and cruise missiles, while the boomer has torpedoes and ICBMs.

I have never claimed to be too bright, not to mention did not realize NAVY stands for Never Again Volunteer Yourself, until after I volunteered for the boats.:rofl:

Wait ... you go to sea in ships that START the battle sunk, your only defense against the other guy finishing the job is your wits and a bit of luck, and your hat is off to them? Dude, my hat is off to you!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I'm playing Traveller, a sci-fi game about a far future universe where ....

Yup. It's easy to get wrapped around the axle about your particular $.20. And, if you're in a frontier situation, having "ship's troops" that are also expedition-capable would be really handy. The question is - in YTU - where the Empire (or whoever) draws the line between take-care-of-it-because-you're-the-johnny-on-the-spot and are-you-nucking-futz?-call-for-reinforcements!

In MTU, where I have a bunch of polities of under 30 systems, and a few upward of 200 systems, and J-3 is still a new thing, there will be a wide disparity between them on where that line gets drawn. (One polity doesn't even have a military except for mercenaries.)

 

[snrdg082102]

A warship with ship's troops has an added option on how to confront a situation. If the ship's CO and the CO of the ship's troops think landing is a good idea they go. Unfortunately, the ship's CO can still decide to land the troops even when the troops' CO doesn't think the idea is a good. On the flip side the CO of the ship's troops might what to kick in the door, but the ship's CO says no.

As mentioned the CO that lands his ship's troops and carries the day is a hailed as doing the right thing. Losing the day the CO is the goat and at best ends the career in some back water post, if not so gets cashiered from the service.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello McPerth,

I agree that there is a difference between Ship's Troops and carried troops, unfortunately I disagree that ship's troops are just for boarding actions and ship's security.


I don't recall any CT details on ground forces, however GT does provide some insight. From what my quick check in GT: Ground Forces, SJG02095 6614, the troops do not use low berth.

One of the issues I see with having the troops in low berths is the chance that a variable number of troops can not be revived. If enough die there might not be enough troops to land. Another drawback , in my opinion, is the time needed to revive the troops and then get them fit enough to make the landing.

Once the ship's troops land the ship's CO real authority depends on the Ship's Troops command structure to obey. The individual in charge of the Ship's Troops is in tactical control and can ignore the Ship's CO's orders. Of course there are good and/or bad results for the troop leader similar to the Ship's CO.

Everyone, while they are on board a ship are accountable to the ship's commanding officer, once the leave the ship they are accountable to their chain of commands. However, the ship's CO usually does not become involved unless the issue effects the good order and discipline of the ship.

I disagree with Ship's Troops relying on the ship's medical section based on my limited knowledge of the Army and Marines. Each of organization at a certain number of troops has a medic embedded with them. The larger the troops the more medical support. A fire team probably does not have a medic, however one of the team member's have more medical training the rest. Most military units, from various countries, of platoon size have a medic from my research via the Internet and books at the library.

A squad, which HG states is the smallest unit carries on board a ship, probably relies on the Ship's medical section when deployed and will have one of the squad members trained to fill the role of medic in addition to other duties.

Of course my opinion is what started the topic and being more that a little dense caused an scene here. That being said having medics embedded is option and determined by the individual designer. Just be sure that the write-up provides the information.

I'm really having a problem at keeping my word aren't I?

First of all, once more, let me recognize my real practical military experience is nil, so, my point of view is purely civilian (although, as nurse I am ,y experience in medical needs is not nil).

I see a big difference in this way among ship troops and carried troops.

Ship troops are, IMHO, part of the crew, and so they may rely on the ship's medical services, and are accounted on them, so, they have no independent medical service. Even when deployed in ventures, they are under the comand of the ship's Captain (through the leader on the spot, whoever will it be).

Carried troops, on the other hand, are "biofreight" (no offense to any one that served as carried troops on a ship, and beforehand excuses if anyone feels offended), just passengers, and with their own chain of command outside that of the ship (only being in the ship's discipline as they will be under the local law elsewhere).

They may rely on the medical services aboard (which are likely to be larger than if no such "passengers" were to be carried. And, after all, their own medical equipment is likely to be inoperative, in the hold, and probably most of it dismantled and in crates), and even complement them with their own personnel while aboard, as they'll need to prepare for the new world they are to deploy on (applying vaccinations, etc...), and they are likely to be on another ship on their next trip.

So, I think the ship's troops have no own separate medical service, relying fully on the ship's, while carried troops are a different command (even if under the ship's Captain rule while aboard) with their own medical service.

And one more complication will be if those carried troops are carried in low passage, something I envision for very large and long distance troop moves, as they will need more medical personnel to keep for them...

 

[McPerth]

Hello McPerth,

I agree that there is a difference between Ship's Troops and carried troops, unfortunately I disagree that ship's troops are just for boarding actions and ship's security.


I don't recall any CT details on ground forces, however GT does provide some insight. From what my quick check in GT: Ground Forces, SJG02095 6614, the troops do not use low berth.

One of the issues I see with having the troops in low berths is the chance that a variable number of troops can not be revived. If enough die there might not be enough troops to land. Another drawback , in my opinion, is the time needed to revive the troops and then get them fit enough to make the landing.

Once the ship's troops land the ship's CO real authority depends on the Ship's Troops command structure to obey. The individual in charge of the Ship's Troops is in tactical control and can ignore the Ship's CO's orders. Of course there are good and/or bad results for the troop leader similar to the Ship's CO.

Everyone, while they are on board a ship are accountable to the ship's commanding officer, once the leave the ship they are accountable to their chain of commands. However, the ship's CO usually does not become involved unless the issue effects the good order and discipline of the ship.

Of course once ship's troops land they are under their command structure and under their own tactical command, but under the ship's CO overall command, much as a battalion is under its CO tactical command, but under his regiment's overall command. Ship's troops are one unit of the ship command, unlike carried troops.

AFAIK, so have been landing parties used, and those ship's troops, once landed, will be landing parties, not independent units. I guess that's why their number does not fit into regular Marine units numbers.

I disagree with Ship's Troops relying on the ship's medical section based on my limited knowledge of the Army and Marines. Each of organization at a certain number of troops has a medic embedded with them. The larger the troops the more medical support. A fire team probably does not have a medic, however one of the team member's have more medical training the rest. Most military units, from various countries, of platoon size have a medic from my research via the Internet and books at the library.

A squad, which HG states is the smallest unit carries on board a ship, probably relies on the Ship's medical section when deployed and will have one of the squad members trained to fill the role of medic in addition to other duties.

Of course my opinion is what started the topic and being more that a little dense caused an scene here. That being said having medics embedded is option and determined by the individual designer. Just be sure that the write-up provides the information.

I'm really having a problem at keeping my word aren't I?

MTM, page 45 (under medical shool):

Marines have no medical officers; they are treated by Navy doctors

JTAS 10, page 29; Military Academy: Marines (I know this is a variant, so it may not be canon):

The medical school option is not open to marine officers as they are treated by naval surgeons. All marines receive rudimentary first aid training, and some are selected for corpman training, but this is handled in the normal character generation system.

That's why I assume ship's troops rely in their ship's facilities. They are treated by Navy personnel, and it's (IMHO) logical to assume they are treated in Navy's facilities. In the field, of course, those marine corpmen take the first care of the wounded, before sending them (if needed) to a Naval clearing station.

That also makes me think that in major Marine operations, where they work in large formations (battalion and up) and are not ship's troops (bridgehead, etc.) they carry medical personnel with them, that cares for their campaign hospitals.