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CT High Guard Agility

A few ways to beat the fighter issues-

#1 have a host/slave computer networked squadron, where one of the fighters or something like a 1000-ton fighter leader is packing a better computer and the rest slave to it to get their targeting data.

#2 increase weapon factors as the range decreases- to include tipping the fighter weapons over to spinal values if close enough.

This assumes actual maneuver, or maybe something like creating a suicide range.
 
Small computer fighters are chewed up in fleet combat operations. The computer difference to fleet computers means they can struggle to hit and penetrate the defenses of combat ships. When they do the weapons carried don't do much, especially if the ship is armoured.

Against civilian ships however, small computer fighters can be very effective. Civilian ships typically have a computer sized to their jump needs (ie: close to the fighters computer size), limited agility, limited defensive fire and no armour. Fighters also get the maximum small ship modifier.

Fleet fighters are what most in this thread are talking about when referring to "unhittable" fighters. Fleet fighters carry the best computer available for that tech level and also max out on agility. In effect at the bleeding edge of technology, the two opposing fighters cannot hit each other. This is not uncommon, for example armoured knights fighting to exhaustion or M1 Abrams tanks unable to defeat its own armour. Tech advances normally sort this out. Or tech disparity between opponents may mean this is not a concern (unless you sold them your advanced tech).

At TL11-12, fighter fleets have the edge over the same TL BB fleets, just as in 1942 Brown Shoes came to the fore. At TL14-15 however computers cost too much for Fleet fighters and BB fleets have the edge. By cost to much, I mean, yes you can do it, but you get better better bang for your credit elsewhere.

Are fighters "unhitable"? No. The main anti-fighter weapon is lots of factor 9 missile bays. Don't use spinals on fighters, save spinals for capital ships. Why? Because you only get one shot at full effectiveness, during that same round your ship takes fire and all your weapon systems take damage. This weapon scrubbing effect is what fighters are really good at. The spinals in a flighter fleet come out to play only when the ability to scrub them is much reduced.

At TL11-12, fighters can overwhelm missile bay defences. However as the tech level increases, fleet fighter computers get much more expensive (plus the power plant to run them), while factor 9 missile bays stay the same price or get cheaper and smaller.

The "unhitable" fighter "screening" the rest of the fleet. This only works if you know the fighter is in fact unhitable. For example, there are no factor 9 missle bays left in the other fleet. The consequence of getting this wrong is fairly bad. If the figter is taken out, the enemy fleet gets a free round of firing (no return fire) on your reserve. There are a lot of historical examples of opposing forces leaving pickets to screen the army while the respective armies lick their wounds and reorganise. And historically an army tended to get punished if their pickets were rolled up.

None of this takes away from house-ruling the bits you don't like. For example, no fleet pickets or abstracting away what it takes to overwhelm them to gain a free round of fire. As another example, I like the fighter squadron rules in JTAS (the journal number escapes me). It is worth keeping in mind though that in threads like this, there are often contradictory proposals to both strengthen and weaken fighters because they are both too powerful and at the same time cannot do anything.

If you want to experiment with fighters, fighters at TL11-12 are the most fun. TL13 is marginal. At TL15, Imperial fighters are typically not facing TL15 opponents, meaning they may not need factor 9 computers to be effective in fleet engagements. And of course to keep the Imperium in line it is fairly cheap and fast to build or replace TL15 fighters capable of matching the Imperial average TL fighter.

Just food for thought.
 
Note that here I'm mostly interested in Ship combat for an RPG, not for large fleet battles.

So a small fighter (and the Vargr example I mentioned earlier is only TL 9-12) could easily be a problem in a RPG in that either it cannot be hit by normal ships, or the Referee has to introduce powerful ships to stand a chance of doing anything to it, which means that any other normal ship is going to be toast.

Additionally even if the opposition had another fighter, they can't hit each other under HG rules, and that seems odd to me.
 
Since it is part of the rpg side of things you can add the character/crew skills to the mix.
It's the bit everyone always forgets about in HG. You can easily derive DMs for green, regular, veteran and elite ships/fleets from them.
Ship tactics - bonus to effective computer rating (very powerful)
Pilot/ship's boat - bonus to agility
and one I made up
Gunnery - bonus to hit and penetrate
 
Since it is part of the rpg side of things you can add the character/crew skills to the mix.
It's the bit everyone always forgets about in HG. You can easily derive DMs for green, regular, veteran and elite ships/fleets from them.
Ship tactics - bonus to effective computer rating (very powerful)
Pilot/ship's boat - bonus to agility
and one I made up
Gunnery - bonus to hit and penetrate

I cannot agreee more with you (as I have already stated many times). Lack of crew quality effects (aside from the OCs Ship's Tactics and Pilot) is one of its main flaws.

In he case of gunnery, though, it has some problema with multiple crew batteries (bays, spinals and screens). What do you use? Average? battery chieff?

(as you can see, I asume you use it for screens too)

How do you ase the skills, though? As told in HG (level-1)/2?

I find this use nice, as you need somewhat high skill to affect at those levels, and also penalizes using untrained people.
 
I think HG assumes by default all crew have skill 2, which is ok for fleet battles. For RPG purposes I guess all the table values should be 2 higher and use the PC/NPC skill ratings (I think I would have preferred the tables to be the raw numbers TBH). Given that makes it harder for lower skill levels to hit, it makes Agility even more useful.

I like the idea of Ship Tactics being a plus to computer rating.

Since the main problem with Agility is that is applies across the board, I wondered about limiting the amount of agility that can be used to no higher than Ship's boat/Pilot skill (or possibly 2 x skill). After all if I have Pilot-1 I shouldn't be as good in an Agility 6 fighter as the guy with Pilot-5. Mind you there aren't many PCs around with Pilot-5.

Possibly use relative Agility as a mod as well as (or instead of ) relative computer. That way at least Agility 6 fighters can hit each other, as their Agility will cancel out.
 
See that the fact the OC Ship's Tactics skill modifies the effective computer number and the Pilot's skill modifies agility, in both cases by (skill-1)/2 is already in HG (page 44, under Individuals).
 
Yes, that's because it assumes overall skill levels of 2, hence the modification of (skill-1)/2 to allow for PCs with higher skills. I'd prefer to limit Agility rather than make it even more useful!


Still wondering about relative Agility:

(Attacker's Agility - Defender's Agility), max 0

i.e. you can only use Agility in attack to offset defender's agility. That way equal Agility ships can hit each other.
 
You could use agility as a currency to change range bands or avoid changing range bands as well as a defensive DM.
To change from long to short range will cost you a point of agility, your opponent can maintain range by spending their own agility, or allow you to close and maintain full defensive DM.
I choose to up the ante by spending another point of agility to close range and my opponent counters until we have both spent our agility on attempted maneuvering or I decide to stop spending it so I have some defensive DM available.
 
Still wondering about relative Agility:

(Attacker's Agility - Defender's Agility), max 0

i.e. you can only use Agility in attack to offset defender's agility. That way equal Agility ships can hit each other.

This does not make sense to me at all- ships for the most part aren't dogfighting to gain firing position, agility to me is positional change that can generate an effective miss.

Perhaps the post above provides an alternative- spend agility to change ranges- then at different ranges agility has different values.

Call it three ranges- CLOSE MEDIUM and LONG to correspond to the CT mod ranges.

At long agility counts double -DM, medium normal agility 1:1 -DM, at close agility does not count.

Then you have real tradeoffs in seeking range vs. hit evasion, and fighters will often have agility to burn to close or escape to a more survivable range.
 
The problem is that Agility 6 and size 0 (-2 size mod) means that these things can't be hit except by massive ships, which seems wrong to me.

If a fighter with Computer/1 can't do much to a large ship due to relative computer size (potentially -8 modifier or more), and it can't hit another fighter due to Agility/Size (also -8 modifier), then the fighter has no real purpose at all. Well, it can take on other low computer, low Agility ships.

It seems to me that fighter squadrons would be exactly what you'd use to take out attacking fighters rather than relying on your main ships of the line to do it, for screening purposes if nothing else.
 
The problem is that Agility 6 and size 0 (-2 size mod) means that these things can't be hit except by massive ships, which seems wrong to me.

While this is theoretically true, see that:
  • larger ships are likely to have better computers than fighters (even if ony due to price, as a fighter whose computer costs MCr 55 (model 6) will mean you won't have many of them, not to talk about the MCr 140 for a model 9).
  • larger ships are likely to have better OCs (higher ship's tactics skill). After all, you would not assign your Ship tatis 5 comodore to a fighter, but probably to a battleship), so, again, increasing the effective computr DM. Same happens with pilots (for agility).
  • larger ships use to have better batteries, more able to hit fighters (and fighters are likely to be affected by battery vs size criticals.

Of course, fighter vs fighter is likely to end in no hits on anyone (as long as there's no computr difference), as to hit a fighter they would need:

  • Missile battery rated 3 fighter: to hit 5+. DMs -6 for agility, -2 for size: 13+, so no hits.
  • Fussion gun battery rated 5 (TL14+): to hit: 6+, so even worse

So, fighters may not fight among themselves, they are anti-ship weapons, not anti-fighter ones.

But then, larger ships use to have better computers, better weapons and better commanders...
 
This does not make sense to me at all- ships for the most part aren't dogfighting to gain firing position, agility to me is positional change that can generate an effective miss.

If one can agilely maneuver to avoid a hit, the firer can agilely maneuver to ensure one. All targeting it relative.

Of course, I'm not a fan of agility anyway, but that's a different problem.
 
Agility is a very poor term to have been used - note it was not used in HG79.

It's meant to be an abstraction of maneuvering and evading ability - hence it is used to determine initiative and therefore range, acts as a defensive modifier and is used when breaking off by acceleration (which allows the agility to be higher then the m-drive rating representing the range difference)

Just another thought about using agility as currency.

The side that wins initiative may change range for free, the loser then gets to decide if they will start the bidding to maintain range at the cost of lowering agility defensive DM.
 
If one can agilely maneuver to avoid a hit, the firer can agilely maneuver to ensure one. All targeting it relative.

Of course, I'm not a fan of agility anyway, but that's a different problem.

That's..... not true, except for fixed weapons forward, missiles, and spinal guns if you think of them as fixed forward weapons.

Everything else is on turrets that can move on their own within an arc without needing the mounting ship to line up.

The missiles as direct entire impact are even questionable as CT doesn't have missiles moving faster then ships- much more likely they are maneuvering to detonate a kinetic cloud.

The spinal weapon is also a doubtful weapon, mostly the firing ship needs to be pointing at the target and there is enough several second PA beam or meson detonation shots to cover several potential endpoints.

I would actually lean towards ruling the firing spinal ship cannot use it's agility precisely because it has to maintain a tight bearing on the target that is entirely predictable.

It's not a dogfight, its an EW/second by second maneuver war as to how much doubt the target ship can create to generate a miss.

If anything, a fighter firing fixed weapons should have negatives to hit and again has to remain predictably pointed at the target to even have a chance.
 
That would take you back to the original use of agility as a defensive DM. In early printings of HG 80 agility wasn't a blanket DM, it wasn't included on the beam or missile DMs.

It makes a very different game if turrets and bays are not affected by the agility DM...
 
The side that wins initiative may change range for free, the loser then gets to decide if they will start the bidding to maintain range at the cost of lowering agility defensive DM.

Hey, I have been playing with that idea in My current Mashup rules based on Mayday.

Note under the core Mayday rules use of any of the evation programs requires 1g of maneuver (Note the max speed of the Starships in that rules set is 2gs so that is significant cost).
 
That would take you back to the original use of agility as a defensive DM. In early printings of HG 80 agility wasn't a blanket DM, it wasn't included on the beam or missile DMs.

It makes a very different game if turrets and bays are not affected by the agility DM...

I don't know if that was an intentional omission or just an error, but it is interesting.

Given that I'm mostly likely to be interested in small ship combat, I'm leaning towards saying that Agility use will be limited by Pilot skill (or 2x Pilot skill, not sure yet).

With that and removing the default +2 skill on the HG tables I think it will bring things back into a reasonable range for RPG purposes, e.g. Factor 1 beam needs 6+ to hit (I think). Becomes an 8+ by removing the default 2 skill, then another -2 (size) and -1 or -2 for the Pilot/Agility limit means it needs an 11 or 12 to be hit. Plus the actual Gunnery skill of the firer, so 10+ or 11+, which seems reasonable for an RPG where I want some risk.
 
A skill of two does generally not translate into a DM +2 in HG:
Pilot: The skill level of a ship's command pilot affects its maneuver. Subtract one from the skill level of the ship's command pilot and divide by two, dropping fractions. The resulting number is used as a + modifier to the ship's effective agility.
So, DM = ( Skill - 1 ) / 2, i.e. a skill of 3 or 4 gives a DM +1.

SkillDM
Unskilled(-3)-2
Skill-0-1
Skill-1±0
Skill-2±0
Skill-3+1
Skill-4+1
Skill-5+2
If you want to remove the default skill-2 from the combat tables you should probably just add one to the table target numbers and add a DM of Skill / 2, round up.

Adding the full skill would risk overwhelming the tables. A Ship's Tactic-5 skill would make a ship almost unhittable, while automatically hitting the enemy. The combat system would collapse...
 
The paragraph containing the modifications for higher skill levels (skill-1/2) says that the tables assume a skill rating of 2. The modification formula is only for skills above 2, so I'm not sure that it applies to the table values for lower skill ratings, there's no mention of adjusting the values for skills below 2.

Generally I think it would have been better to have raw unmodified values in the tables and then apply assumed skill ratings to them.

Maybe adding one to the values could be a good compromise. I'm not so worried about Ship Tactics 5 (which is reasonably rare) as Agility 6 (which isn't).
 
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