CT -- How Best To Get Up to Speed on 3rd Imperium & Spinward Marches?

[Shonner]

I recommend Mongoose books to new Traveller players, since they're a reboot of the game and setting.

 

[Vargas]

Plus, if you don't have the JTAS collection, either in print or on CD, I HIGHLY suggest you get it. It's a grab bag of weapons, equipment, adventures, creatures, aliens, optional rules, and even official rules for a CT game. I've got the three soft backs, and they are indispensible--loads of ideas and useable info. They even include Computer Rules that were not included in the official rules but are official CT.

For my money, the Contact! articles for the Bwaps and Virushi alone are worth the price of admission.

 

[Khan Trav]

Pre-War Regina subsector

I have been running players via PBEM in the Regina Subsector circa 1103/1104 generally in situations connected to the run up to the war.

My online sources depend heavily on Rancke and Hemdian for background data.

Hemdian's landgrab of Yori includes the excellent "Silence of the Groatlings" and "The Name Of The Coral"

I ran modified versions of these online and we had much fun.

Rancke created a very excellent and detailed description of Whanga/Regina via JTAS online.

The setting is vast and packed with possibilities. One system I have found particularly useful is Ruie which outside the Imperium but J-1 from Regina.

Jenghie is also an interesting world which also J-1 from Regina.

I am sure there are other people I should be giving credit to here but for all, I really appreciate your significant contributions to my campaigns.

I love this area and era.

Also honorable mention to my players who have had fun and suffered depending on whether I was able to keep up with moves.

Admiral Rutger hault Rognvald

Naval Commander Dr. Roger deGrammont

Baron Darius Skyos

AI Security Dog (robotic) MAC

Dr. Luke O'Rea

Scout Nossumm Girribaldii

Scout Din Isborn

Scout Ooty

Merchant 3rd Officer Anthony Paley

Naval Commander Sir Jeremiah Jericho

 

[GypsyComet]

It's stated quite clearly in the Library Data. LDNZ p. 6 and 36.


At one time I thought it was in MT. Then I stumbled across a CT reference. But my memory being what it is, I've forgotten where; I just remember finding the reference. And I admit it's possible that the memory is false. But I think it's somewhere in CT.

The Duchy of Mora is the oldest Duchy in the Marches, and Delphine the senior-most of the living Dukes in the classic period, but I don't think she wears the Sector Duke hat officially, just by default. Mora is the administrative center of the Marches, though. Norris effectively becomes the Sector Duke during the Fifth Frontier War, and the Archduke of the Domain during the Rebellion (confirmed near its end by Strephon).

 

[Supplement Four]

The Duchy of Mora is the oldest Duchy in the Marches, and Delphine the senior-most of the living Dukes in the classic period, but I don't think she wears the Sector Duke hat officially, just by default. Mora is the administrative center of the Marches, though. Norris effectively becomes the Sector Duke during the Fifth Frontier War, and the Archduke of the Domain during the Rebellion (confirmed near its end by Strephon).

This sounds about right--but it's been years since I've read any of that stuff.

 

[rancke]

The Duchy of Mora is the oldest Duchy in the Marches, and Delphine the senior-most of the living Dukes in the classic period, but I don't think she wears the Sector Duke hat officially, just by default. Mora is the administrative center of the Marches, though.

IIRC, how Delphine became sector duchess simply isn't addressed in any CT source. Personally I think that being the subsector duchess of the administrative center of the Marches would be enough in itself, even when said duchess is squeeky new, GT:Nobles to the contrary notwithstanding. Being the sector duke and being the duke of the sector's administrative center seems to me to go together. No doubt it is theoretically possible for another duke to rise to the position over the old one, but in such a case the administrative center would shift to his ducal capital. Considering the complications involved in switching sector capital every couple of decades, I think that would be a very rare occurrence and predicated on some major problems with the old sector duke.

I don't see how a sector duke can be the sector duke without wearing the hat officially. They supervise Imperial organizations on the sector level, most specifically the Imperial Navy.

Norris effectively becomes the Sector Duke during the Fifth Frontier War, and the Archduke of the Domain during the Rebellion (confirmed near its end by Strephon).

No, during the 5FW he became the holder of an Imperial Warrant that granted him vast authority on a temporary basis. He did promote himself to archduke after Strephon was assssinated (IMO with the tacit approval of the other dukes, including the Duke of Deneb and (however reluctantly) Delphine, but that's my interpretation). None of which replaced Delphine as sector duchess. Superceded her authority on some matters, yes, but that's not the same thing.

The thing is, if one insists on sticking solely to CT sources, there's very little evidence of how the Imperial nobility is organized other than the essay in LDNZ. Most especially there's no mention of Norris being the sector duke and good reason to think he wasn't (Specifically, that he did not have the authority to overrule Santanocheev).


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

The thing is, if one insists on sticking solely to CT sources, there's very little evidence of how the Imperial nobility is organized other than the essay in LDNZ. Most especially there's no mention of Norris being the sector duke and good reason to think he wasn't (Specifically, that he did not have the authority to overrule Santanocheev).

Insisting on sticking to CT sources leaves enough holes that you depart into IYTU territory pretty quickly.

The Delphine is never referred to by any Imperial title other than Duchess of Mora, and IIRC we don't learn that Mora is the administrative center of the Marches until Norris leaves those functions there instead of moving them to Regina. Is there an FFW reference?

Does Deneb have a Sector Duke? We get names of several Sector Dukes and Archdukes in MT, but Deneb is never one of them, IIRC. Mongoose's Deneb book established that there isn't a Sector Duke and hasn't been for a long time, if ever. Only Mongoose and DGP touch the region in the Imperial Era.

 

[aramis]

Does Deneb have a Sector Duke?

It appears to in S11: LD N-Z.

For example, the Reft Sector lies astride the Great Rift, splitting its major population areas into two distinct regions. The rimward section has closer ties to the center of the Imperium, and is administered through the Verge sector; the coreward section is more colonial in nature, and is administered through the Deneb sector.

In the Travellers' Digest, for example, we have made use of both of these methods. In the first adventure of the campaign we set up a situation that would result in the characters being knighted by the Duke of Deneb.

Which means that the Duke of Deneb is in fact canonically filled before 1115 and after 1105.

Yet another Mongoose F-up on canon.

 

[rancke]

Insisting on sticking to CT sources leaves enough holes that you depart into IYTU territory pretty quickly.

My point exactly. Which is why I feel the need to draw on information from other sources if a discussion on the subject is to have any point at all.

The Delphine is never referred to by any Imperial title other than Duchess of Mora...

Naturally. Duchess of Mora is her title. Sector duke isn't a title, it's a job description. "No special title is awarded to a sector duke." [LDNZ:36]¹

¹ The Duke of Deneb seems to be an exception to that.​

... and IIRC we don't learn that Mora is the administrative center of the Marches until Norris leaves those functions there instead of moving them to Regina.

I would think that that would be enough. There's also a reference in MTJ2, p. 56 to the Giyachii arcology being built to accomodate sector (and subsector) offices (MT canon). There's a reference to her being sector duchess in GT:Nobles, pages 18 and p. 107² (GT canon). And Delphine is specifically said to be in charge of sector administration in my own A Festive Occasion (MgT canon).

² I still don't get how Jon saw the sector administration working between Delphine becoming Duchess of Mora in 1014 and her becoming sector duchess by the 1050s. Did the duke who was sector duke back then move to Mora? Or did all the administrators move to that duke's capital? Maybe doing that every couple of decades until Delphine provided 70 years of continuity? It sounds highly impractical to me.​

Is there an FFW reference?

As I can't remember where I saw the CT reference to Delphine, I can't check on that. As for Norris not being the sector duke, however, that is IMO clearly implied by the fact that the Sector Admiral can give him orders. If he had been sector duke it would have been the other way around.

Does Deneb have a Sector Duke? We get names of several Sector Dukes and Archdukes in MT, but Deneb is never one of them, IIRC. Mongoose's Deneb book established that there isn't a Sector Duke and hasn't been for a long time, if ever. Only Mongoose and DGP touch the region in the Imperial Era.

Rob must have overlooked (or decided to retcon) the reference to a Duke of Deneb³ in the Four Knights adventure in TD1. I never got a playtest comp, so I don't know how Rob explains how a sector gets along without a sector duke. You'd think that was a situation that Strephon would make sure didn't last any longer than absolutely necessary.

³ I have a tentative but unfinished idea for how the sector duke of Deneb wound up with a special title after all. A former emperor (haven't decided who) welcomed a visiting sector duke of Deneb and erroneously addressed him as Duke of Deneb instead of Duke of Usani (or whatever). At the subsequent state dinner the Emperor conferred the title 'Duke of Deneb' on all future sector dukes of Deneb "As a mark of appreciation for Deneb's singular⁴ contributions to the Imperium", thus proving that the Emperor didn't make a mistake after all.

⁴ Albeit unspecified. ​

​

Hans

 

[rancke]

It appears to in S11: LD N-Z.

Deneb specifically? Or just inferred from the essay? Do you have a page reference?

Which means that the Duke of Deneb is in fact canonically filled before 1115 and after 1105.

Yet another Mongoose F-up on canon.

Hey, Wil, we agree on something!!! o:


Hans

 

[Hyphen]

Well, I'm sure that I have it from somewhere in canon, but I can't remember where. The guy who put up the wiki entry for Kinorb Cluster claims that it's from The Spinward Marches Campaign, but he doesn't provide a page number, and I've been unable to find it. However, I've been calling it the Kinorb Cluster for many years, so I didn't get it from the wiki.


Hans

FWIW, the phrase "Kinorb Cluster" comes from a TNS entry in JTAS #8 (and repeated in the Fifth Frontier War board game) dated 054-1107:

"In today's weekly press briefing, a naval spokesman confirmed that an unusually large amount of shipping had failed to make scheduled planet-fall, and that no communications from the Kinorb Cluster had been received for over two months."

 

[whulorigan]

Does Deneb have a Sector Duke? We get names of several Sector Dukes and Archdukes in MT, but Deneb is never one of them, IIRC. Mongoose's Deneb book established that there isn't a Sector Duke and hasn't been for a long time, if ever. Only Mongoose and DGP touch the region in the Imperial Era.

Which means that the Duke of Deneb is in fact canonically filled before 1115 and after 1105.

Sector duke isn't a title, it's a job description. "No special title is awarded to a sector duke." [LDNZ:36]¹

¹ The Duke of Deneb seems to be an exception to that.​

Rob must have overlooked (or decided to retcon) the reference to a Duke of Deneb³ in the Four Knights adventure in TD1.

³ I have a tentative but unfinished idea for how the sector duke of Deneb wound up with a special title after all. A former emperor (haven't decided who) welcomed a visiting sector duke of Deneb and erroneously addressed him as Duke of Deneb instead of Duke of Usani (or whatever). At the subsequent state dinner the Emperor conferred the title 'Duke of Deneb' on all future sector dukes of Deneb "As a mark of appreciation for Deneb's singular⁴ contributions to the Imperium", thus proving that the Emperor didn't make a mistake after all.
​

Just as an aside, there is precedent for the Duke of Usani Subsector being properly referred to as "Duke of Deneb" if Deneb is the Capital of Usani Subsector.

Take Duke Craig Anton Horvath (for example) in Daibei Sector. He is the Sector Duke of Daibei, with his Capital on Warinir, which is in Edge Subsector. Note that he is not refered to as "Duke of Edge" (the subsector name), but rather as "Duke of Warinir" his capital-world name.

Thus, the "Duke of Deneb" may simply be the proper title for the Duke of Usani Subector (Deneb being the Capital of Usani Subsector), by established precedent. (Whether or not he is also the Sector Duke of Deneb is an entirely different matter).

 

[rancke]

Just as an aside, there is precedent for the Duke of Usani Subsector being properly referred to as "Duke of Deneb" if Deneb is the Capital of Usani Subsector.

Yes, but it isn't. The capital of Usani subsector is Usani. [RgS:62]


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Yes, but it isn't. The capital of Usani subsector is Usani. [RgS:62]

Don't have those books in front of me at the moment, but according to TravellerMap (which is what I consulted for my comment), Deneb is the Capital of Usani Subsector, and Usani is not.

Perhaps TravellerMap is in error then (though it does have all of the T⁵ data and extensions for the worlds of the subsector).

 

[rancke]

Don't have those books in front of me at the moment, but according to TravellerMap (which is what I consulted for my comment), Deneb is the Capital of Usani Subsector, and Usani is not.

Deneb is the sector capital. Usani is the subsector (duchy) capital. The duke of Usani subsector (duchy) would still be the Duke of Usani and not the Duke of Deneb Subsector (duchy), because there is no Duchy of Deneb to be duke of.

Perhaps TravellerMap is in error then (though it does have all of the T⁵ data and extensions for the worlds of the subsector).

Rob seems to have missed the dual setup. Or perhaps he decided to retcon it. While I think it's a real pity if he did (it's that sort of oddities in social organization that helps make individual subsectors more than just cookie-cutter copies), it doesn't matter in this particular context, because there is still no Duchy of Deneb to be duke of. The Duke of Usani would still be the Duke of Usani even if he resides in the Deneb System and is the sector duke of Deneb Sector.


Hans

 

[robject]

Which means that the Duke of Deneb is in fact canonically filled before 1115 and after 1105.

Yet another Mongoose F-up on canon.

(1) First reaction: Oh, crap.

(2) Second reaction: So, it was in Challenge 28? How was I to know? I'm starting to think that ignorance is a valid excuse in some cases.

(3) Third reaction: It took two years to find this error? Perhaps I shouldn't feel that badly about it.

 

[rancke]

(2) Second reaction: So, it was in Challenge 28? How was I to know? I'm starting to think that ignorance is a valid excuse in some cases.

I'm afraid your playtesters let you down on that one.

(3) Third reaction: It took two years to find this error? Perhaps I shouldn't feel that badly about it.

Do you want an honest comment or a nice one?

Seriously, I'm surprised no one knew (or remembered) about the Duke of Deneb from the very first adventure of DGP's Grand Tour, but apart from that I agree with you that mistakes are impossible to avoid. Sometimes mistakes can be fixed in errata, sometimes they're so fundamental to the setting that you can't do anthing about it. I haven't had a chance to read the book, but it sounds like this may be one of the second kind.

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to comment on the manuscript.


Hans

 

[robject]

Thank you, Hans. I believe I have been on the receiving end of your draft-critiques before, and you are a helpful proofreader and 'catcher of canon'. And plainly honest without being rude, which I think is valuable. In fact, that we disagree on some things makes your input more valuable.

 

[Supplement Four]

And plainly honest without being rude, which I think is valuable. In fact, that we disagree on some things makes your input more valuable.

I'll second that. I don't always agree with Hans, either, but the dude knows his Traveller.

 

[Timerover51]

(1) First reaction: Oh, crap.

(2) Second reaction: So, it was in Challenge 28? How was I to know? I'm starting to think that ignorance is a valid excuse in some cases.

(3) Third reaction: It took two years to find this error? Perhaps I shouldn't feel that badly about it.

Not everyone has everything covering Traveller. I go with, if it is not in one of the specifically Traveller publications put out by GDW or Far Future, it does not count. JTAS counts, Challenge does not.