CT -- How Best To Get Up to Speed on 3rd Imperium & Spinward Marches?

[GypsyComet]

That's exactly how the position of the Marquis of Aramis is described: As the vassal of the Count of Celepina, himself a vassal of the Duke of Regina.

Citation?

(Other parts of canon make me think that 'vassal' isn't used in the traditional European feudal sense, but that's by the way.)

Except that it isn't "by the way" but is very important to the definition of the Imperium.

All noble titles are Moot titles.

Assigned seating for several million? I really doubt that.

 

[whulorigan]

Yes they have. That's exactly how the position of the Marquis of Aramis is described: As the vassal of the Count of Celepina, himself a vassal of the Duke of Regina.

(Other parts of canon make me think that 'vassal' isn't used in the traditional European feudal sense, but that's by the way.)
Hans

Should not the Count of Celepina be a "vassal" to the Duke of Rhylanor?

 

[rancke]

Citation?

"The Marquis owes allegiance to the Count Knowln of Celepina (in nearby Rhylanor subsector) who in turn owes allegiance to the Duke of Rhylanor..." [TA:35]​

Assigned seating for several million? I really doubt that.

According to Nobles, there are up to (emphasis mine) one Imperial baron per 250 million people in the Imperium. One per 250 million would come to 60,000 Imperial nobles. The 'up to' leaves the door open for a somewhat lower number. The number of high nobles would be somewhat less than the number of systems in the Imperium (Depending on just how many systems have no high noble after all and how many high nobles have multiple high noble titles).

The implications of taking the character generation system as an accurate representation of the 3rd Imperium setting with one Imperial baron per 36 people I dismiss as totally unrealistic.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Should not the Count of Celepina be a "vassal" to the Duke of Rhylanor?

Isn't that what I said?


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Isn't that what I said?

In your initial quote you said Duke of Regina.

 

[rancke]

In your initial quote you said Duke of Regina.

Oops!

I will immediately correct that.


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

The implications of taking the character generation system as an accurate representation of the 3rd Imperium setting with one Imperial baron per 36 people I dismiss as totally unrealistic.

Sure, as that would mean billions of Barons per sector in some cases. While amusing in a Casino Royale sort of way, it isn't realistic.

The Moot is for the Landed and a small number of Ceremonial Nobles ("Baron Hasleth, Lord Castellan of Massilia"). Odds are Count Aledon does not have a seat there as that is probably an old Honor Title, but the Duke of Regina and Baron Yori certainly will.

 

[rancke]

The Moot is for the Landed and a small number of Ceremonial Nobles ("Baron Hasleth, Lord Castellan of Massilia"). Odds are Count Aledon does not have a seat there as that is probably an old Honor Title, but the Duke of Regina and Baron Yori certainly will.

Anyone with one or more Imperial noble titles, High, Honor, or Rank, has a seat in the Moot. Whether each title gives a vote is not spelled out one way or another. I prefer that each noble has only one vote, but the other way would work too. If they do, Count Aledon would have a vote just as the Duke of Regina, the Marquis if Regina, and the Baron of Yori.


Hans

 

[DonM]

First, the title 'Duke of Deneb' could easily be referring to the system of Deneb itself.

There's going to be an even better problem with Antares... we get a system, sector and domain all with the same name.

This whole argument probably boils down to if you like Rob's book or not, and I do, and recommend it for folks wanting to play in Deneb sector.

As to the number of landed nobility within the Moot, the numbers Marc gave me are...

1097 Baronets [1 vote], 1601 Barons [1 vote], 955 Marquis (arrgh!) [2 votes], 890 Viscounts [3 votes], 848 Counts [3 votes], 254 world Dukes [4 votes], 270 subsector Dukes [4 votes] and 6 Archdukes [5 votes]. With 8778 knights supporting those activities.

[Yes, the whole title business NOT being Baronets, Barons, Viscounts, Counts, Margraves, Dukes and Archdukes still annoys the crap out of me.]

 

[rancke]

First, the title 'Duke of Deneb' could easily be referring to the system of Deneb itself.

Not in the original pre-T5 text. "The fifth level of noble rank is the duke, and is associated with a subsector" [LDNZ:36]

Not a world. This is clear from the example of Norris, who is both Duke of Regina and Marquis of Regina. One Regina is clearly the Duchy¹ of Regina and the other the Regina System.

¹ Subsector. Since subsectors are not always synonymous with duchies, I'm trying to promote distinguishing between the two terms by using 'duchy' whenever I deem the original use of 'subsector' referred to the political subdivision and 'subsector' when it referred to the astrographical subdivision.​

There's going to be an even better problem with Antares... we get a system, sector and domain all with the same name.

Not a problem. The Archduke of Antares is the high noble of the Domain of Antares, the Duke of Antares is the high noble of the Duchy of Antares, and the Marquis of Antares is the high noble of the Antares System.

(There may even be a count of a County of Antares too. )

This whole argument probably boils down to if you like Rob's book or not, and I do, and recommend it for folks wanting to play in Deneb sector.

Well, no, it doesn't. If it did, I wouldn't be able to have an opinion as I haven't read the book.

As to the number of landed nobility within the Moot, the numbers Marc gave me are...

1097 Baronets [1 vote], 1601 Barons [1 vote], 955 Marquis (arrgh!) [2 votes], 890 Viscounts [3 votes], 848 Counts [3 votes], 254 world Dukes [4 votes], 270 subsector Dukes [4 votes] and 6 Archdukes [5 votes]. With 8778 knights supporting those activities.

That's less than two thirds of the number of systems in the Imperium. That's an interesting change.

So does that mean that the character generation system has been changed to eliminate the plethora of honor nobles it used to produce?


Hans

 

[DonM]

Not a problem. The Archduke of Antares is the high noble of the Domain of Antares, the Duke of Antares is the high noble of the Duchy of Antares, and the Marquis of Antares is the high noble of the Antares System.

(There may even be a count of a County of Antares too. )

Sure, and knights and probably Viscounts, Barons and Baronets. Sigh...

That's less than two thirds of the number of systems in the Imperium. That's an interesting change.

So does that mean that the character generation system has been changed to eliminate the plethora of honor nobles it used to produce?

No, just that T5 separates the high ranking guys with real titles (noble career nobles) from the more common enfeoffed noble (non-noble career nobles with fiefs) from the ordinary noble who has nothing but the title rank (non-noble career nobles who don't muster out with a fief).

 

[rancke]

No, just that T5 separates the high ranking guys with real titles (noble career nobles) from the more common enfeoffed noble (non-noble career nobles with fiefs) from the ordinary noble who has nothing but the title rank (non-noble career nobles who don't muster out with a fief).

So there are real voting Imperial barons and counts and dukes and sham non-voting Imperial barons and counts and dukes?

Because the way noble titles usually work is that the title is what gives the vote and the fiefs and whatnots are secondary. But here we have a nobility with a property requirement for the franchise? o:

And a baron with a seat in the Moot is nevertheless of a lower social level than a marquis without a seat in the Moot? :nonono:


Hans