CT -- How Best To Get Up to Speed on 3rd Imperium & Spinward Marches?
- Thread starter Stan Shinn
- Start date
On reading the Challenge #28 reference, I thought there was something odd with that...
So going back to my Travellers' Digest copies (I will guard my complete set with my life!), and then double-checking the MegaTraveller "Early Adventures" book, the members of the Grand Tour are NOT knighted by the Duke of Deneb. The whole premise of the tour was that they were knighted into the Order of the Emperor's Guard, and they are going to Capital to receive the honors from the Emperor. They don't get anything from a Duke of Deneb (sorry, Gary Thomas).
Now, there was a reference in library data to a Duke of Deneb being the head of the sector government (also in TD #1 or #2), but I believe Marc flipped that because Usani couldn't support a Duke under the new noble system (Usani gets a big whopping Knight under the new system).
So Gary Thomas's reference to them being knighted by a Duke of Deneb is incorrect, but there is a Duke of Deneb, as described in the fine Mongoose publication.
Let us also not forget that Marc Miller was deeply involved with the production and approval of Mongoose's Deneb Sector book. This is much like the answer to "Why did you invalidate the Charity release of Deneb Sector?" (which I'll admit is a rare Traveller item I do not own, but Marc showed me a copy). And the answer is actually that GDW and DGP did that with AoTI, Traveller's Digest, etc, but the question was asked none the less.
I'd hardly use the words Hans used towards Rob's excellent Deneb book. There are some Mongoose books I'll join in warning against (Sword Worlds is at the top of that list), but Rob's book would not be one of them.
Oh, and the reference I use for the Duchess of Mora is page 57 of DGP's World Builder's Handbook. But my poor memory still thinks there's a CT reference we're all missing.
Remember, there's a reference in JTAS #9 (TNS reports) that tells us that Regina is the capital of the Spinward Marches...
So going back to my Travellers' Digest copies (I will guard my complete set with my life!), and then double-checking the MegaTraveller "Early Adventures" book, the members of the Grand Tour are NOT knighted by the Duke of Deneb. The whole premise of the tour was that they were knighted into the Order of the Emperor's Guard, and they are going to Capital to receive the honors from the Emperor. They don't get anything from a Duke of Deneb (sorry, Gary Thomas).
Now, there was a reference in library data to a Duke of Deneb being the head of the sector government (also in TD #1 or #2), but I believe Marc flipped that because Usani couldn't support a Duke under the new noble system (Usani gets a big whopping Knight under the new system).
So Gary Thomas's reference to them being knighted by a Duke of Deneb is incorrect, but there is a Duke of Deneb, as described in the fine Mongoose publication.
Let us also not forget that Marc Miller was deeply involved with the production and approval of Mongoose's Deneb Sector book. This is much like the answer to "Why did you invalidate the Charity release of Deneb Sector?" (which I'll admit is a rare Traveller item I do not own, but Marc showed me a copy). And the answer is actually that GDW and DGP did that with AoTI, Traveller's Digest, etc, but the question was asked none the less.
I'd hardly use the words Hans used towards Rob's excellent Deneb book. There are some Mongoose books I'll join in warning against (Sword Worlds is at the top of that list), but Rob's book would not be one of them.
Oh, and the reference I use for the Duchess of Mora is page 57 of DGP's World Builder's Handbook. But my poor memory still thinks there's a CT reference we're all missing.
Remember, there's a reference in JTAS #9 (TNS reports) that tells us that Regina is the capital of the Spinward Marches...
Um... who decided that the were to be knighted into the Order of the Emperor's Guard? It certainly wasn't the Emperor, since the decision was taken towards the end of the first adventure, long before the beginning of the second adventure (dated 339-1100). Someone in Deneb evidently had the authority to grant those knighthoods, and I submit that the logical person to have been given such authority (by Strephon, of course) is the senior noble in the sector.
But be that as it may, the salient point is that there is a Duke of Deneb mentioned in Of XBoats and Friends. Whether he is the one to decide on the knighthoods or not (but who else could it be?), he's still there.
Usani is still the subsector capital, I believe. A bit hard to swallow it being the seat of a mere Imperial knight. But that's not really the point. The point is that the subsector is named Usani. Even if the subsector capital of Usani subsector was Deneb, wouldn't its duke still be the Duke of Usani? You seem to be mixing up nobles of subsectors and nobles of individual worlds here.
So Gary Thomas's reference to them being knighted by a Duke of Deneb is incorrect, but there is a Duke of Deneb, as described in the fine Mongoose publication.
What words would that be? I've made what I believed to be factual statements about discrepancies between (what I've been told about) Deneb and previously published material. If I'm wrong about anything, I'd very much like to be informed.
I've been told that it's in Grand Census or Grand Survey, but as I don't have either I can't vouch for it.
Easily explained away as viewpoint writing, and pretty unreliable viewpoint writing at that (Any newspaper article about things I know of personally usually have about three major errors).
Setting descriptions in authorial voice is a different matter.
Hans
It's not actually stated in the adventure WHO admits them into the Order. Presumably, that's up to the referee.
I'm apparently not the only one making some assumptions. Vilis subsector, for example, has no Duke of Vilis. Aramis subsector has similar issues.
I've got both. I pulled them out and can't find it there. Which is annoying because I really thought it WAS there.
I can explain away what I want, but will not grant anyone similar license? I expect better of you than that.
While the Duke of Deneb is certainly described as the head of the sector government, no source appears to give him the title of Sector Duke. His position appears to have been even less solid than Duchess Delphine's in the Marches. Given that two Admirals drew on the resources Behind the Claw to put themselves on the Imperial throne quite forcefully, perhaps the later Emperors saw fit to prevent any single noble to have the authority to rally the Domain of Deneb for a reason, and keeping the two key sector ducal seats titular might be an effective way to maintain that. Of course, Emperor Strephon comes along with those pesky reforms...
I know it's not stated who did it. But it is stated that it was done. It seems pretty obvious to me that if it was done, someone did it. And also that said someone wasn't the Emperor but someone local. Who else but the highest-ranking representative of the Emperor in the sector? And who would that be but the head of the Sector Government?
As far as we know. And we know that only from GT:Nobles. But I agree with you that there is no Duke of Vilis. I just think that means that the subsector administration is not run by any duke. (My take is that for some reason it's run by a representative of the Duke of Regina instead of the Count of Vilis). As for Aramis, I agree that there's no Duke of Aramis. I also think that there is no duke IN Aramis. Certainly not a high duke. There might be an honor duke, but I doubt it.
I've always distinguished between viewpoint writing and authorial voice writing. And I'm perfectly willing to grant everyone else the same license.
What else would the duke who was the head of the Deneb sector government be? Especially since there is no Deneb Subsector for him to be subsector duke of Deneb of.
What pre-Deneb text gives that appearance?
What good does it do to deny the duke who is the head of the sector government the title of sector duke but give him the authority? Shouldn't it be the other way around if you're concerned about giving out too much power?
(BTW, it just struck me that the 20 fleets in Corridor might have another purpose: To prevent a third emperor from arising Behind the Claw.)
Hans
Aramis has a Marquis, but probably should be at least a count, unless he's not the subsector Noble. But that would be even more odd. But the Marches are a series of exceptions to the "normal" defined in CT.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
The Challenge 28 reference is in a meta-article, and easy to miss.
The Digest #1 reference is firmest in the Library Data, not the adventure itself. The adventure itself is set very early, in 1100. I would not have thought to look in TD#1 for such a reference because I thought DGP's Four Troublemakers were knighted in the Marches.
Revisiting TD#1 (or, in my case, Early Adventures) has reminded me that DGP was pushing into TL16 with Aybee in 1100 and earlier, not even waiting for the Rebellion. To me, this makes the Canon status of DGP materials all the more suspect.
So the magazine published by the owners of the game doesn't count just because they decided to publish material for other games as well?
The Digest #1 reference is firmest in the Library Data, not the adventure itself. The adventure itself is set very early, in 1100. I would not have thought to look in TD#1 for such a reference because I thought DGP's Four Troublemakers were knighted in the Marches.
Revisiting TD#1 (or, in my case, Early Adventures) has reminded me that DGP was pushing into TL16 with Aybee in 1100 and earlier, not even waiting for the Rebellion. To me, this makes the Canon status of DGP materials all the more suspect.
So the magazine published by the owners of the game doesn't count just because they decided to publish material for other games as well?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
According to the LD essay there is no special title for a sector duke.
There is no duke/duchess of the spinward marches title, there is no duke/duchess of deneb title.
A sub-sector duke/duchess becomes a sector administrator, but with no special rank or designation.
There is no duke/duchess of the spinward marches title, there is no duke/duchess of deneb title.
A sub-sector duke/duchess becomes a sector administrator, but with no special rank or designation.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I don't have a problem with TL16 research being done in Imperial Research Stations, or the odd lone genius producing a super advanced robot, or even a TL16-21 world beyond the Imperial border.
Where I think DGP got it wrong is ignoring the TL15 cap for so many Imperial worlds they detailed - especially in the massilia sector - 24 for cripes sake, many of which are high pop industrial powerhouses.
Your Grace,
May I humbly indicate that Hans pointed out that AE Project Steel is set a whole 15 days after the canon write up of the world.
Similarly your own words indicate that the appointment of a Sector Duke was made after 001-1105, so is in accordance with canon.
Humble Regards
Dagrill, MCG, Commander, IN retd
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
From LD - no honorific is awarded by being a sector duke, and it looks like a first among equals rather than an appointment.
Which means that there must be a historical reason for the Duke of Deneb title, since it breaks with a strong Imperial tradition.
I've come up with one such explanation myself (A previous emperor made a mistake in a speech and granted the title to Deneb's sector duke to cover up his mistake (Note that the title didn't confer any new powers; the Duke of Deneb is still only first aming equals)).
(I've posted a fuller account at least once before here on CotI, but the search function is not up to finding it easily (or perhaps I'm ignorant of how to make the search function work effectively).)
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
So.
Who thinks this six page plunge into esoterica has scared off the original poster? Show of hands?
Who thinks this six page plunge into esoterica has scared off the original poster? Show of hands?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
As the last time that he posted here was January 5th, I would say that he has been a bit scared off.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
On the one hand, Challenge was published by GDW. On the other, I always felt that the quality of the Traveller coverage declined quite a bit when JTAS was folded into Challenge. So much so that I stopped collecting Challenge after a bit (but I had to have every issue of JTAS).
In my heart, I feel that JTAS ends with issue 24, and the Challenge stuff is supplemental but not as "official" as JTAS.
Just my personal opinion, tho.
Maybe the Marquis of Aramis isn't a Count because the world is so small--just one underground city. Kinda like a giant, modern city with mucho people out in the middle of no where, stretches of desert for miles in every direction.
The high noble of Aramis/Aramis isn't a count because his feudal overlord/the guy above him in the chain of command is a count. As you say, the Marches feature some exceptions to the standard Imperial practices. The explanation that has been propounded for this one is that Aramis Subsector is split between three neighboring duchies, Regina, Pretoria, and Rhylanor.
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
I have never gotten the sense that the noble ranks within the Imperium have that structured a hierarchy. We know the higher ranks stack, but the lower ranks haven't been portrayed that way. It is Emperor -> (Archdukes) -> Sector Dukes -> Subsector Dukes -> Everyone else. We don't really know if the Counties include Marquisates or Baronies, though it is clear that everyone is within the Duchies.
Muddying everything is that the Moot Titles are rarely differentiated from the Honor or Ceremonial Titles. Is there a County Aledon?
Note: I'm speaking of how things were prior to T5.
EDIT: Changed 'Duke of Regina' to 'Duke of Rhylanor'.
(Other parts of canon make me think that 'vassal' isn't used in the traditional European feudal sense, but that's by the way.)
Hans
Yes they have. That's exactly how the position of the Marquis of Aramis is described: As the vassal of the Count of Celepina, himself a vassal of the Duke of Rhylanor.
EDIT: Changed 'Duke of Regina' to 'Duke of Rhylanor'.
(Other parts of canon make me think that 'vassal' isn't used in the traditional European feudal sense, but that's by the way.)
We know that counts are associated with clusters of worlds. We know that individual worlds have barons or marquesses. I don't see how that allows for the interpretation that counties don't include baronies and/or marquisates.
All noble titles are Moot titles.
Presumably not. Nor is there any reason why there should be.
Hans
Last edited:
Similar threads
