CT Only: CT JTAS 23 Space Habitats in Traveller

[snrdg082102]

Morning PDT,

While searching my Traveller folders I found a draft spreadsheet related to the Space Habitats In Traveller by Chris Struble. The article is on pp. 36-41 of CT JTAS 23.

Pulling out my FFE 007 JTAS Issues 13-24 book I picked up where I had stopped work on the spreadsheet.

I was doing okay until I got to Population and Agriculture and Construction Time sections. The example given on how to determine the population that a habitat can house and feed has me stopped cold.

In the Population and Agriculture section provides an example on how to determine the population the habitat can house and feed. I've tried to figure out how the example game up with the population numbers and have failed.

Could someone who has sometime to spare and a copy of JTAS 23 please step through the Population and Agriculture section example so I can figure out how it works?

Instead of stopping I moved to the Construction Time section which raised a question.

To construct a space habitat in its stellar, a world must have at least a type A or B star port and a population of 6 or greater.

My image is that a world would probably have a space station or space port and probably space habitats before gaining a star port.

In the Honor Harrington series IIRC the world of Grayson had agricultural habitats before they regained the use of interstellar travel.

Is the star port requirement correct?

 

[flykiller]

Is the star port requirement correct?

well if it says so, then yes. unless if by "correct" you mean "reasonable" then maybe.

in ct space-going construction is defined as one of the functions of a class A or B port (the other, presumed, functions being merchant pax and merchant cargo transit). if a space structure is being built then it is reasonable to say 1) there is a construction entity 2) organized and launching from a ground-based facility - that would be the port, even if it has no merchant pax or merchant cargo transit capability.

now that would be a bottom-up approach. in a top-down approach it's quite possible that for whatever reason space habitats would be built before any port or even before any groundside habitation is established.

Instead of stopping

good man.

 

[kilemall]

I would make the distinction that space habitats are BUILT at A/B starports, but could be shipped piece by piece to a destination.

As such I would tack on shipping tonnage costs to any facility build.

 

[Timerover51]

Morning PDT,

While searching my Traveller folders I found a draft spreadsheet related to the Space Habitats In Traveller by Chris Struble. The article is on pp. 36-41 of CT JTAS 23.

Pulling out my FFE 007 JTAS Issues 13-24 book I picked up where I had stopped work on the spreadsheet.

I was doing okay until I got to Population and Agriculture and Construction Time sections. The example given on how to determine the population that a habitat can house and feed has me stopped cold.

In the Population and Agriculture section provides an example on how to determine the population the habitat can house and feed. I've tried to figure out how the example game up with the population numbers and have failed.

Could someone who has sometime to spare and a copy of JTAS 23 please step through the Population and Agriculture section example so I can figure out how it works?

Instead of stopping I moved to the Construction Time section which raised a question.

To construct a space habitat in its stellar, a world must have at least a type A or B star port and a population of 6 or greater.

My image is that a world would probably have a space station or space port and probably space habitats before gaining a star port.

In the Honor Harrington series IIRC the world of Grayson had agricultural habitats before they regained the use of interstellar travel.

Is the star port requirement correct?

You might want to spend some time looking through this website.

http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/index.html

NASA also put out a book on Space Colonies that might be online.

It should be noted that the ones NASA was looking at were not small structures, by any means.

 

[atpollard]

I would make the distinction that space habitats are BUILT at A/B starports, but could be shipped piece by piece to a destination.

As such I would tack on shipping tonnage costs to any facility build.

Does a Class C Starport have any orbital workers? Who is assembling it?

A Starport that builds ships in orbit (Class A/B) clearly has the facilities and skilled workers to build a habitat in orbit. I think that was the way they viewed it.

I guess that another way to look at it is, if you import everything you need to assemble a space habitat from imported parts, you have just built a Class B Shipyard capable of assembling a non-starship from imported parts.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello flykiller,

Thank you for the reply.

well if it says so, then yes. unless if by "correct" you mean "reasonable" then maybe.

in ct space-going construction is defined as one of the functions of a class A or B port (the other, presumed, functions being merchant pax and merchant cargo transit). if a space structure is being built then it is reasonable to say 1) there is a construction entity 2) organized and launching from a ground-based facility - that would be the port, even if it has no merchant pax or merchant cargo transit capability.

now that would be a bottom-up approach. in a top-down approach it's quite possible that for whatever reason space habitats would be built before any port or even before any groundside habitation is established.



good man.

IIRC, though I'm not able to recall the sources, there are hints in the Alien Modules on how local space was developed which included having space habitats/space stations before figuring out the principles for using Jump Space. Which means that the development of space habitats should not be based on a star port at least not until the Jump Drive arrives on the scene.

I'm bashing together a draft of a spreadsheet to build CT JTAS 23 Space Habitats and I will hopefully figure out the bit about calculating the population that a space habitat can support according to the article.

 

[infojunky]

Couple of Notes on the article.

TL15+ for Gravitic habitats? Gravity technology is old school being introduced at TL8.

Only spheres and cylinders?

Ag give a floor space per person.

I would consider the article a broad swath of Ideas, as a lot of the rules need work.

 

[kilemall]

Does a Class C Starport have any orbital workers? Who is assembling it?

A Starport that builds ships in orbit (Class A/B) clearly has the facilities and skilled workers to build a habitat in orbit. I think that was the way they viewed it.

I guess that another way to look at it is, if you import everything you need to assemble a space habitat from imported parts, you have just built a Class B Shipyard capable of assembling a non-starship from imported parts.

Guess I am coming at this from a railroad perspective.

In the 1850-1880 time frame Great Britain shipped locomotives and pre-fabbed steel bridges all the way from the UK to India and assembled them there- does that mean India had industry capable of building the bridges, locomotives and steamships?

Also, from a gaming perspective, you WANT various remote research stations, listening posts, trading posts, etc. and not be limited to A/B starports or ersatz containers/ships-turned-habitat.

The cargo cost of shipping it there, plus remote assembly cost if you like, should limit the size and number of such facilities.

 

[mike wightman]

Guess I am coming at this from a railroad perspective.

In the 1850-1880 time frame Great Britain shipped locomotives and pre-fabbed steel bridges all the way from the UK to India and assembled them there- does that mean India had industry capable of building the bridges, locomotives and steamships?

It means the British Empire is TL5 and can assemble/build its high TL stuff in any country that is part of the Empire, regardless of the local TL.
In just the same way the TL15 Imperium can build a TL15 starport on any world in the Imperium, regardless of local world TL.

 

[mike wightman]

Couple of Notes on the article.

TL15+ for Gravitic habitats? Gravity technology is old school being introduced at TL8.

A type B 'starport' on a TL8/9 world that is pre-jump can not build starships but can build spaceships that can exploit space resources and build up a system wide space industry, including building space habitats. As you say, TL8 grav and fusion technology would allow for the cheap industrialisation of space.

Only spheres and cylinders?

Ag give a floor space per person.

After seeing the starbase in the last StarTrek film I do not see why 3I space habitats could not be constructed along those lines.

I would consider the article a broad swath of Ideas, as a lot of the rules need work.

I agree with this assessment.

 

[Reban]

An idea on why it takes an A or B class Starport to buit a space Habitat.

Space Habitats are to Starships as Space Stations are to Space Ships.

In other words a space Habitat is for long term sustainable living in the same way as a Starship is for long distance interstellar voyages. Space stations on the otherhand are not meant to supplant the planetary environment, they are only for temporary living just like spaceships are for relatively "short" inter planetary travel.

 

[kilemall]

An idea on why it takes an A or B class Starport to buit a space Habitat.

Space Habitats are to Starships as Space Stations are to Space Ships.

In other words a space Habitat is for long term sustainable living in the same way as a Starship is for long distance interstellar voyages. Space stations on the otherhand are not meant to supplant the planetary environment, they are only for temporary living just like spaceships are for relatively "short" inter planetary travel.

Sure, for building or manufacture.

Just doesn't have to STAY there like the article apparently says.

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon PDT,

First my apologies to kilemall, timerover51, and atpollard for missing their posts. I was answering flykiller when they came in and when I checked the latest notification I went to the latest post.

I've been trying to find the source or sources in the various Traveller rule sets that I think hint at having installations like habitats and stations in space prior to the jump drive being discovered. So far I have not found anything.

However based on the link provided by timerover51 my feeling is that space habitats/stations/ports existed before Class A or B star ports.

I am still working on the spreadsheet but I'm also working on a couple of other projects.

Thank you all for the response.

 

[GypsyComet]

I've been trying to find the source or sources in the various Traveller rule sets that I think hint at having installations like habitats and stations in space prior to the jump drive being discovered. So far I have not found anything.

A (rather obscure, granted) T4 era Contact article in one of the two JTAS issues printed by Imperium Games covers the Suerrat, who expanded quite a bit by STL over at least two thousand years before the Vilani found them. They used generation and/or sleeper ships, and a really large example is apparently still in orbit over their homeworld as a museum. That strongly implies that they would convert their massive ships to orbitals if the destination world wasn't a good candidate for ground settlement. GTIW notes that they are past masters at contained biome maintenance like generation ships and large stations would require in such cases.

The Suerrat get only passing mention in CT and MT Library Data, as most of the above elements were developed later.

 

[mike wightman]

Here is a cast iron reference to a space habitat pre-jump, it's from Trillion Credit Squadron:

The most ambitious such effort was launched in 2050 by the European
Space Agency, in cooperation with the French O'Neil colony

 

[BlackBat242]

http://www.nss.org/settlement/space/oneillcylinder.htm

The O’Neill Cylinder, designed by Princeton physicist Gerard K. O’Neill, is considerably larger than the other two designs, and is referred to as an “Island 3” or 3rd-generation space colony. The configuration consists of a pair of cylinders, each 20 miles long and 4 miles in diameter. Each cylinder has three land areas alternating with three windows, and three mirrors that open and close to form a day-night cycle inside. The total land area inside a pair of cylinders is about 500 square miles and can house several million people. The cylinders are always in pairs which rotate in opposite directions, cancelling out any gyroscopic effect that would otherwise make it difficult to keep them aimed toward the sun.

O'Neill Cylinders were "invented" in the 1970s, in response to a NASA request* for a space habitat design that could be built with existing (1970s) technology and materials, and for under $35 Billion (a little over $200 Billion in today's money) - by contrast, CVN-78 (still not in commission) had a price tag of $12.8 billion for construction + $4.7 billion R&D as of 2013 (she was launched Nov. 2013).


* http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11351/how-we-could-actually-build-a-space-colony-17268252/

 

[kilemall]

http://www.nss.org/settlement/space/oneillcylinder.htm



O'Neill Cylinders were "invented" in the 1970s, in response to a NASA request* for a space habitat design that could be built with existing (1970s) technology and materials, and for under $35 Billion (a little over $200 Billion in today's money) - by contrast, CVN-78 (still not in commission) had a price tag of $12.8 billion for construction + $4.7 billion R&D as of 2013 (she was launched Nov. 2013).


* http://www.popularmechanics.com/spa...could-actually-build-a-space-colony-17268252/

O Neill colonies are a big part of IMTU, it's where most of Earth's population goes, called the Cities.

 

[mike wightman]

I picked up O'Neil's book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Frontier:_Human_Colonies_in_Space
thanks to a library book sale, its well worth reading if TL7/8 space colonisation is part of your game.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning PDT,

I agree, as mentioned previously in the topic thread, that the article provides a rough set of guidelines for space habitats. From a number of authors and my understanding of the posts here space habitats are built prior to the star ports of Traveller.

Thank you for the links to the various sources about space habitats and related material.