'currency' in the wilds
- Thread starter Elliot
- Start date
I'd assume that heavy elements are relatively rare in space, for the same reason they're rare on Earth; however, there are a lot of carbonaceous asteroids, which may indicate plentiful diamonds.
But the diamond issue is moot, because TL8 can manufacture (1) zirconia and (2) true diamonds at very low cost, thereby undercutting the economics of precious stones everywhere.
And Atony is right; foreign currency has no value unless an exchange value is established (or evolves), which of course is based on trade and commerce with the other world/nation.
But the diamond issue is moot, because TL8 can manufacture (1) zirconia and (2) true diamonds at very low cost, thereby undercutting the economics of precious stones everywhere.
And Atony is right; foreign currency has no value unless an exchange value is established (or evolves), which of course is based on trade and commerce with the other world/nation.
Telsor,
There is a bit of difference between the Imperium and Argentina, about 10999.9 worlds. MT states that after the collapse of an interstellar govt the Imperium Credit was still used in trade. Most worlds lost interstellar capability. I just extrapolated what's been already provided.
If an planet X decides to keep the Imperium Credit instead of building a monetary system...perhaps they thing the Imperium will be back and their
money will devalue. Maybe its easier. At any rate back to the comment. I'm suggesting that below 7 the locals might forget about the Imperium and go back to gold and silver...or whatever precious metals trips their triggers.
Blue Ghost,
What steak? Your making me hungry.
Savage
There is a bit of difference between the Imperium and Argentina, about 10999.9 worlds. MT states that after the collapse of an interstellar govt the Imperium Credit was still used in trade. Most worlds lost interstellar capability. I just extrapolated what's been already provided.
If an planet X decides to keep the Imperium Credit instead of building a monetary system...perhaps they thing the Imperium will be back and their
money will devalue. Maybe its easier. At any rate back to the comment. I'm suggesting that below 7 the locals might forget about the Imperium and go back to gold and silver...or whatever precious metals trips their triggers.
Blue Ghost,
What steak? Your making me hungry.
Savage
The problem with retaining the Imperial credit is the number that were in circulation - just find one bank vault and watch the money supply inflation.
I'll correct my coins post. The 100Cr coin was 5g of gold - the 1Cr coin was 5g silver. I had intermediate ones - 100g silver was 10 credits, and another one was 30g silver, which I claimed had higher purity and was worth 5Cr. Since the players were not interested in money exchanges I didn't go into detail. Once they knew there was a system of generally accepted money they could get on doing the things they liked rather than worry about it.
I'll correct my coins post. The 100Cr coin was 5g of gold - the 1Cr coin was 5g silver. I had intermediate ones - 100g silver was 10 credits, and another one was 30g silver, which I claimed had higher purity and was worth 5Cr. Since the players were not interested in money exchanges I didn't go into detail. Once they knew there was a system of generally accepted money they could get on doing the things they liked rather than worry about it.
Yes I realize that Tim. But the game says its still a negotiable monetary standard. I'll have to look for the quote. I suspect that each world deals with that in their own manner not unlike commodities.
More than likely, major gov'ts decided they'd honor it during the rebellion should a victor be determined. Perhaps its eventually like trading in spanish gold dubloons or roman coins.
Savage
More than likely, major gov'ts decided they'd honor it during the rebellion should a victor be determined. Perhaps its eventually like trading in spanish gold dubloons or roman coins.
Savage
I agree, using the ImpCr would be 'easier' than planets making their own currencies ( both for game simplicity and 'making' the currency ).
As Tim said, the big questions would be the money supply relative to the size of the economy...too many Cr and the value dives, too few and it will rise. A further problem is that very few planets would have the capacity to mint new Cr, so the supply is fixed ( too high or too low probably ).
Of course, there is an exception to all this, but I doubt there are too many rulers who took the 'extra' Cr that were available and only released them as required. ( cash also 'wears out over time..even coins..notes only last a few years at best ).
It is also worth noting that in a modern economy, only a tiny proportion of the 'money supply' is actually cash ( ~5% is typical ). Most is just electronic transfers and the like.
Further problem .. banks *cannot* cover all the money deposited with them in the near term...after all, they've lent most of it out. The bad part of this is that when things go bad, people tend to make a 'run' on the bank, trying to withdraw all their money. ( this was a major cause of the great depression..the banks ran out of money ). The modern solution to this is that central banks allow individual banks to borrow cash from them, something a planetery bank probably can't do, so as soon as people start to think things are going bad, the whole system will probably collapse.
There is a reason economics is known as 'the dismal science'.
As Tim said, the big questions would be the money supply relative to the size of the economy...too many Cr and the value dives, too few and it will rise. A further problem is that very few planets would have the capacity to mint new Cr, so the supply is fixed ( too high or too low probably ).
Of course, there is an exception to all this, but I doubt there are too many rulers who took the 'extra' Cr that were available and only released them as required. ( cash also 'wears out over time..even coins..notes only last a few years at best ).
It is also worth noting that in a modern economy, only a tiny proportion of the 'money supply' is actually cash ( ~5% is typical ). Most is just electronic transfers and the like.
Further problem .. banks *cannot* cover all the money deposited with them in the near term...after all, they've lent most of it out. The bad part of this is that when things go bad, people tend to make a 'run' on the bank, trying to withdraw all their money. ( this was a major cause of the great depression..the banks ran out of money ). The modern solution to this is that central banks allow individual banks to borrow cash from them, something a planetery bank probably can't do, so as soon as people start to think things are going bad, the whole system will probably collapse.
There is a reason economics is known as 'the dismal science'.
How? I mean, really. I've tried to work out how a credit card system works with interstellar travel and never been able to come up with a fully workable system. You either run in to problems with communication lag, or with forgery, or with people losing/having stolen their credit cards. How do you transfer money between systems if you can travel between them before the information gets their.
Actually I can see it that most money is on individual credit cards, but most people probably stay in the same system almost all their life, which makes the problem trivial with TL6+ communications. For a Free Trader crew, calling at out-of-the-way starports/worlds, money supply is goint to be a problem.
Why continue to honour it 70 years after Virus swept away the Third Imperium? With Spanish dubloons you have the actual physical value melted down and recast available. I always assumed Imperial Cr were some form of plastic banknote with no intrinsic value. The only reason they were accepted was the backing of the Imperial government. Now that's gone, it requires more faith in human nature than I have to imagine they'll be accepted on thousands of worlds, when the local rulers know that they have no control over how many are available. All it takes is one former high population world one jump away, with a bank vault holding actual currency, and a single Free Trader crew can end up owning most of the planet.
So what happens when tech drops to below the level required to read it?
Actually that isn't what I looked back at this thread for, although it is an interesting twist...I was thinking that with differing money supplies between worlds, you could litterally trade credits between worlds..find one world that is short of Cr ( and therefore, they're worth a lot ), and that has an over supply. Of course, if there was a lot of trade ( wont happen in the wilds of course ), the sitiuation will rapidly fix itself.
I also wanted to add that this is just my thoughts based on memories of economics classes from some time back, and I don't think those classes really had interstellar economics in mind. It's YTU, so whatever works for you, goes.
Actually that isn't what I looked back at this thread for, although it is an interesting twist...I was thinking that with differing money supplies between worlds, you could litterally trade credits between worlds..find one world that is short of Cr ( and therefore, they're worth a lot ), and that has an over supply. Of course, if there was a lot of trade ( wont happen in the wilds of course ), the sitiuation will rapidly fix itself.
I also wanted to add that this is just my thoughts based on memories of economics classes from some time back, and I don't think those classes really had interstellar economics in mind. It's YTU, so whatever works for you, goes.
Those govts with big ambitions (Regency) would have some sort of exchange rate for the older money. If nothing else to collectors and such. There could be worlds in the wilds that took an effort to recover their Credits and re-use them beats attempting to build a monetary system. Especially if they're deluted about eventually
being rediscovered by the imperium.
Credits were published in a mag, as I recall, Paper. Although, credsticks (or cards) would be the obvious alternative for canon. And that's how I handle it in MTU.
Dublooms getting melted down...well I don't think that's legal. Historical Value and all.
Savage
being rediscovered by the imperium.
Credits were published in a mag, as I recall, Paper. Although, credsticks (or cards) would be the obvious alternative for canon. And that's how I handle it in MTU.
Dublooms getting melted down...well I don't think that's legal. Historical Value and all.
Savage
PAPER???
Surely only backwards countries use that now
I'm sure paper currency will soon be a thing of the past.
Paper currency tends to only last 1-2 years in circulation. That and the ease with which paper can be counterfeited is why several nations have moved away from it already, and more are sure to follow.
FYI.
About 20 countries use polymers for their notes now. The Australian ones even have a clear 'window' in them to make them even harder to copy. They cost 3 or 4 times as much as normal notes to create, but last 10 times as long. The main cost involved is the setup ( making counterfeiting impractical ). They're also waterproof and very durable.
The US $1 note costs almost as much to make as it's face value..factor in that it has to be replaced ona regular basis and you'll understand why the US mint keeps trying to replace it with coins.
Surely only backwards countries use that now
I'm sure paper currency will soon be a thing of the past.
Paper currency tends to only last 1-2 years in circulation. That and the ease with which paper can be counterfeited is why several nations have moved away from it already, and more are sure to follow.
FYI.
About 20 countries use polymers for their notes now. The Australian ones even have a clear 'window' in them to make them even harder to copy. They cost 3 or 4 times as much as normal notes to create, but last 10 times as long. The main cost involved is the setup ( making counterfeiting impractical ). They're also waterproof and very durable.
The US $1 note costs almost as much to make as it's face value..factor in that it has to be replaced ona regular basis and you'll understand why the US mint keeps trying to replace it with coins.
i own a copy of the Gilded Lily adventure, amd in it, its mentioned that the small planet of Beren have thier own currency but its all based on the value of the trade items that are in the warhouses owned by the bank/import companies.
a free trader arrives, has a cargo, he needs local currnecy, so he takes samples of his cargo and visits one of the import co./banks and the owner works out the value of the samples. giving him cash to shop at local shops.
its also mentioned that they do take off world currencies but at lower exchange rates.
just some random things for ppl to think about.
a free trader arrives, has a cargo, he needs local currnecy, so he takes samples of his cargo and visits one of the import co./banks and the owner works out the value of the samples. giving him cash to shop at local shops.
its also mentioned that they do take off world currencies but at lower exchange rates.
just some random things for ppl to think about.
Yes,
Berens (the site of the Guilded Lilly Adventure) has its own currency) probably printed on planet using a TL8 printing press, and probably on paper (easy to get when you have a population of 40).
They also mention the prestwick credit (prestwick has a population or 1/2 million and TL7, so they probably use paper notes (with watermarks, metal strips, fine engraving - a bit like the banknotes of the 70s).
Since their currency is in local use only, forgery is probably not a big problem (especially on Berens, where there is probably only 1 copier).
I think the Prestwick credit has gained some value as it is right next to Berens (last indepednent port in the sector) and is a nice waterworld with decent tech and a sensible government. Traders will stop there and so the currency will be used on a limited interstellar basis (it is of use to anyone who may call there).
Cheers
Richard
Berens (the site of the Guilded Lilly Adventure) has its own currency) probably printed on planet using a TL8 printing press, and probably on paper (easy to get when you have a population of 40).
They also mention the prestwick credit (prestwick has a population or 1/2 million and TL7, so they probably use paper notes (with watermarks, metal strips, fine engraving - a bit like the banknotes of the 70s).
Since their currency is in local use only, forgery is probably not a big problem (especially on Berens, where there is probably only 1 copier).
I think the Prestwick credit has gained some value as it is right next to Berens (last indepednent port in the sector) and is a nice waterworld with decent tech and a sensible government. Traders will stop there and so the currency will be used on a limited interstellar basis (it is of use to anyone who may call there).
Cheers
Richard
Theophilus
SOC-13
AND the Guilder,
Guild currency used by Guild merchants all across the sector.
Guild currency used by Guild merchants all across the sector.
I don't buy the Guild Guilder, Theophilus, bad pun and all but seriously:
If a Guild ship lands on a world in the wilds and wants to sell cargo are they going to insist on being paid in Guild Guilders? and where do the locals get these guilders from?
More likely IMHO they'll have their own currency. Similarly if they (Guild captains) want to buy cargo the locals are going to say "what's this you're handing over?" A standard "Trade" currency might be nice but I don't think the guild have the power to back it. Also wouldn't it go against one of their central tennents of "keep them divided" "Governments are fine for individual worlds" etc but not the space lanes. A universal currency like that would encourage or atleast facilitate co-opperation between multi world governments. The guild don't want multi world governments. Well according to Path of Tears anyway. IYTU and IMTU might be different. Infact they are in mine, the guild wishes to dominate trade. The mechanism of this was by dominating ships. But the guild are changing IMTU realising that too many PE's are recovering and starting to build ships and that the starport is where trade is controlled. Control the starport and you control the trade, so I guess I've straw-manned myself, as, if they control the starports and recreate the extrality zones, then they can introduce a "starport currency" as the only currency used in the starport, and hence for trade. But I think that's the only way the guild could make it work, if indeed they have the power to do that at all. And, it's not the way it's detailed in Canon material.
Then again, economic's aren't exactly "detailed" in canon material.
I'd prefer simple workarounds to keep playability, it's supposed to be "Adventuring in the far future not accounting in the far future"
If a Guild ship lands on a world in the wilds and wants to sell cargo are they going to insist on being paid in Guild Guilders? and where do the locals get these guilders from?
More likely IMHO they'll have their own currency. Similarly if they (Guild captains) want to buy cargo the locals are going to say "what's this you're handing over?" A standard "Trade" currency might be nice but I don't think the guild have the power to back it. Also wouldn't it go against one of their central tennents of "keep them divided" "Governments are fine for individual worlds" etc but not the space lanes. A universal currency like that would encourage or atleast facilitate co-opperation between multi world governments. The guild don't want multi world governments. Well according to Path of Tears anyway. IYTU and IMTU might be different. Infact they are in mine, the guild wishes to dominate trade. The mechanism of this was by dominating ships. But the guild are changing IMTU realising that too many PE's are recovering and starting to build ships and that the starport is where trade is controlled. Control the starport and you control the trade, so I guess I've straw-manned myself, as, if they control the starports and recreate the extrality zones, then they can introduce a "starport currency" as the only currency used in the starport, and hence for trade. But I think that's the only way the guild could make it work, if indeed they have the power to do that at all. And, it's not the way it's detailed in Canon material.
Then again, economic's aren't exactly "detailed" in canon material.
I'd prefer simple workarounds to keep playability, it's supposed to be "Adventuring in the far future not accounting in the far future"
pre-TNE sources (several) state that Imperial Credits are made by polymer extrusion, then slicing on a diagonal, so that al the pixels are generted by the individual polymer strands. This does mean they are one sided.... but they are also even harder to forge. it also means that the denomination has a set oval shape to all pixels, the shape of which is determined by the angle and direction of slicing....
Glen Allen Mcinnes
SOC-12
i would have to say that their would be verous compeating currancys and of corse the use of presous metals and stones, the compeating currancys would vary depending on your location but if you where working in the old expances/diaspora area the guilder and the RC credit would be your most likily suspects also perhaps any local pocket empire cash or money from a nearby world with a strong deverice econemoy and some kind of intersteler capasity (even a hand full of relic ships)in the nearby (1 or 2 jumps maby 3 for pocket empires) reagon, of cause RC credits and Gilders will have more wide spred application as guliders would offer favrobale terms on their giluder credits and the Free Trader network as well as RC affilated lancers would prefer to use RC credits to curtail the growing gilder domnance atleast wile trading amouncst themselves and RC affilated worlds or the RC itself.
but if you where in a "pure wilds" game only pocket empires or strong worldes curancys would be logical.
value would flucuate depending on the trade and diplomatic status of the suporting backers so the players could end up as currancy as well as trade goods speculaters and freebotters.
but if you where in a "pure wilds" game only pocket empires or strong worldes curancys would be logical.
value would flucuate depending on the trade and diplomatic status of the suporting backers so the players could end up as currancy as well as trade goods speculaters and freebotters.
Well put 313... I couldn't have said it better myself....
I'm about to roll out a new pocket empires campaign after doing nothing for God-only-knows-how may years. The empire itself will have an exchange-type economy (like ours) but it's gonna be nothin but barter once they hit the Wilds, til they stumble on the Regency. Besides, trading for things you need & trying to scrape a living out of it makes for all the adventure you could ever want!
I'm about to roll out a new pocket empires campaign after doing nothing for God-only-knows-how may years. The empire itself will have an exchange-type economy (like ours) but it's gonna be nothin but barter once they hit the Wilds, til they stumble on the Regency. Besides, trading for things you need & trying to scrape a living out of it makes for all the adventure you could ever want!
wesleybrucecanberra
SOC-12
Naa, you've all got it wrong. An asteroid miner could flood the market with gold in some cases, It should be out there by the ton.
The low technology folks will want high technology ultrastrong/ ultralight material Clear plastic and titanium mesh laminate. Sell them that and some glue and they'll churn out feather light tents and canoes, Sails and shoes. Solar Watches would sell on a low tech world like diamond, Navigation would be revolutionised.
The mid technology folks TL 5-6 want advanced Batteries, and TL 12 solar cells.
The high technology folks want... OK now I'm stuck. Everyone wants Anagathics if they work.
The low technology folks will want high technology ultrastrong/ ultralight material Clear plastic and titanium mesh laminate. Sell them that and some glue and they'll churn out feather light tents and canoes, Sails and shoes. Solar Watches would sell on a low tech world like diamond, Navigation would be revolutionised.
The mid technology folks TL 5-6 want advanced Batteries, and TL 12 solar cells.
The high technology folks want... OK now I'm stuck. Everyone wants Anagathics if they work.
