• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Cybertech.. How do you handle it in CT?

Here's the table from FF&S:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL Type
5 Primitive prosthetics (artificial limbs)
6 Reconstructive surgery
7 Advanced plastic surgery
8 Full function prosthetics
9 Direct brain-machine interface allows
prosthetic eyes and ears, and neural jacks.
Early controlled chemical manipulation of
body systems
A Enhanced-performance prosthetics and
subdermal armour
B Direct computer implantation
C Advanced chemical manipulation of body systems
D Genetic manipulation, enhancement, and
replacement of selected tissues</pre>[/QUOTE]
 
Here's the table from FF&S:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL Type
5 Primitive prosthetics (artificial limbs)
6 Reconstructive surgery
7 Advanced plastic surgery
8 Full function prosthetics
9 Direct brain-machine interface allows
prosthetic eyes and ears, and neural jacks.
Early controlled chemical manipulation of
body systems
A Enhanced-performance prosthetics and
subdermal armour
B Direct computer implantation
C Advanced chemical manipulation of body systems
D Genetic manipulation, enhancement, and
replacement of selected tissues</pre>[/QUOTE]
 
Please bear in mind that an interface that allows one-way communication for directing a robot arm doesn't necessarily mean that there's a data link that allows complex experiential(sp?) two-way communication that is understandable by the human with the implant, aka cyberdecks.

Also, there's the concept that any TL present on a world above High Common is R&D, and thus not available to the general public. We can make anti-matter in the lab, but it's not used by the public, so while we are capable of TL17 experimentation today here on Earth, we are not a TL17 society, because it is not in common use. That said, just because a monkey can move a robot arm in the lab doesn't mean that humans can interact intelligibly with a computer through a data link implant. Simulation of neural impulses that previously existed isn't yet within our grasp via R&D, much less more complex data transfer.

MT holds that the neural jack is primitive at TL12 and reaches the levels we expect from cyber-sci-fi at TL14. (See TD13 for details.) I haven't seen anything in other canonical sources to disagree with that. (See Sigg's post above about TNE and T20.)

That being said, Sigg's post from FF&S implies that the use of prosthetic interfaces doesn't start until TL9, for simple data transfer. At TL10, you can start getting some of the cool cybernetic enhancements. Direct computer implantation (TL10) seems to imply at least complex one-way data transfer. Apparently, cyberdeck levels of data transfer two-ways via a neural link isn't possible until TL14 (another post of Sigg's), but this gives an appropriate scale to aim at for fitting in with the rest of the OTU.

Just looking for internal consistency,
Flynn
 
Please bear in mind that an interface that allows one-way communication for directing a robot arm doesn't necessarily mean that there's a data link that allows complex experiential(sp?) two-way communication that is understandable by the human with the implant, aka cyberdecks.

Also, there's the concept that any TL present on a world above High Common is R&D, and thus not available to the general public. We can make anti-matter in the lab, but it's not used by the public, so while we are capable of TL17 experimentation today here on Earth, we are not a TL17 society, because it is not in common use. That said, just because a monkey can move a robot arm in the lab doesn't mean that humans can interact intelligibly with a computer through a data link implant. Simulation of neural impulses that previously existed isn't yet within our grasp via R&D, much less more complex data transfer.

MT holds that the neural jack is primitive at TL12 and reaches the levels we expect from cyber-sci-fi at TL14. (See TD13 for details.) I haven't seen anything in other canonical sources to disagree with that. (See Sigg's post above about TNE and T20.)

That being said, Sigg's post from FF&S implies that the use of prosthetic interfaces doesn't start until TL9, for simple data transfer. At TL10, you can start getting some of the cool cybernetic enhancements. Direct computer implantation (TL10) seems to imply at least complex one-way data transfer. Apparently, cyberdeck levels of data transfer two-ways via a neural link isn't possible until TL14 (another post of Sigg's), but this gives an appropriate scale to aim at for fitting in with the rest of the OTU.

Just looking for internal consistency,
Flynn
 
Part of the problem with the stuff I posted from FF&S is that TNE adopted a different paradigm for cybertech to what had gone before in OTU canon - much the same as it changed the ship paradigm etc.
 
Part of the problem with the stuff I posted from FF&S is that TNE adopted a different paradigm for cybertech to what had gone before in OTU canon - much the same as it changed the ship paradigm etc.
 
Originally posted by Flynn:
Please bear in mind that an interface that allows one-way communication for directing a robot arm doesn't necessarily mean that there's a data link that allows complex experiential(sp?) two-way communication that is understandable by the human with the implant, aka cyberdecks.
Click to expand...
There are also cyberears and cybereyes under clinical trials today IIRC. They are quite low-res (they stimulate only a fraction of the nerve fibers in each optical/auditory "bundle"), so TL9 is reasonable for good, compact, field-capable versions; a datalink is similar but without the camera/auditory sensor (an external computer gives the "graphic" interface), so it is paulsible at TL9, and so Implant Computers are probably TL10 (remember that most of an RL palmtop is the interface - that is, screen - and power source; when you use a quasi-organic power source - we almost have one today - and neural interface you could have an implanted computer). Remember that all of these interface either with nerves outside the brain (auditory and visual, later tactile) or with very primitive parts of the brain (motor areas). Interface with higher levels of the brain (thoughts, memory, higher emotions) requires some understanding of Synaptic processing, which, according to LBB8, is TL11-12; so memory/knowledge/intelligence enhancers should be TL11+, most likely TL12+.

The other implants are completely organic in nature and need only to be connected to blood vessels (possible IRL with organ transplants) and to peripheral nerves (TL8-9 should be able to fuse nerves using either NGF - the Nerve Growth Factor which was isolated IRL in the 1980's - or micro-surgery [think "nanosurgery" but with "nanobots" the size of large bacteria], probably a combination of both). They are usually vat- (or pharm animal-) grown Human organs (muscle fibers, hearts, tendrons and so on) that have been genetically engineered. Bone lacing is an early application of nanotechnology (TL9-10); muscle implants are probably TL9. Artificial glands constantly releasing certain chemicals into the bloodstream are TL8-9; such artificial glands with neural control are probably TL9-10.

MT holds that the neural jack is primitive at TL12 and reaches the levels we expect from cyber-sci-fi at TL14. (See TD13 for details.) I haven't seen anything in other canonical sources to disagree with that. (See Sigg's post above about TNE and T20.)

That being said, Sigg's post from FF&S implies that the use of prosthetic interfaces doesn't start until TL9, for simple data transfer. At TL10, you can start getting some of the cool cybernetic enhancements. Direct computer implantation (TL10) seems to imply at least complex one-way data transfer. Apparently, cyberdeck levels of data transfer two-ways via a neural link isn't possible until TL14 (another post of Sigg's), but this gives an appropriate scale to aim at for fitting in with the rest of the OTU.

Just looking for internal consistency,
Flynn [/QB]
Click to expand...
Most of this cyber is IMTU and MTU - even in the relatively conservative Solar Triumvirate - is far less conservative than the OTU imperium; also, I seek to instill a slight cyberpunk atmosphere (not major - most blatantly obvious wares are both rare and carry a social stigma). I'll publish my cybernetic ideas as a "Cybernetics and Robotics in the Solar Triumvirate" Stellar Reaches article.

So, here is IMTU's cybertech/biotech timeline:

TL3: Extremely primitive prostetics (sp?) such as wooden legs and hook hands.

TL6: Prostetics (sp?) that have some ability to manipulate objects and are operated by being linked to the remaining muscles of the amputated stump.

TL 7 (1970 to today): organ transplants between Human patients with a tolerable rate of success; in-vitro fertilization; early bacteria, fungi and yeast genetic engineering; advanced remaining-muscle-operated prostetics (sp?); primitive (very low rate of success) cloning.

TL8 (the near future): Genetic therapy by non-homologous recombination (i.e. you can insert a functioning gene into the DNA of cells in a living Human by using a retro-virus, but you can't directly over-write a malfunctioning gene); high success rate in cloning (but the clone still needs to grow inside a womb and then mature as all creatures of it's kind); organ implants could be grown in geneticall-engineered "donor" animals (typically pigs); primitive neurally-controlled prosthetics (sp?); primitive cybereyes and cyberears directly linked to the optical and auditory nerves, respectively; extremely primitive microsurgery (by using "drones" the size of yeast cells to perform simple operations); artificial glands that could constantly produce certain chemicals (such as insulin) can be implanted in Human subjects; severed nerves could be fused togather; genetic engineering of the early embryo ("germ cell"?), combined with embryo selection allows the creation of early bio-modded Humans.

TL9: High-quality interface between nerves and micro-electronics allows high-res cybereyes and cyberears that could even have certain improvements over normal vision (such as infra-red vision or light amplification); micro- and nano-electrodes inserted by microsurgical techniques to the lower brain allows p[rosthetics (sp?) to function almost as well as the original thing; the combination of the two previous technologies make Data Links into reality; homologous recombination (i.e. inserting a gene into a specific site on the genome rather than into a random one) combined with high-efficiency vectors allow effective gene therapy of almost any knid of hereditry desease in adult humans; embryos could be genetically tailored to a wide variety of purposes, including mimicing some of the features of aquatic mammals; vat-growth replaces "donor" animals and could grow enhanced organs and tissues including improved muscle, tendron and joint coating cells; micro surgery and advanced biochemical agents could lace bones with artificial polymeres that strengthen the bones yet allows them to retain their flexibility; military HUDs can now be implanted (similar to Shadowrun "smartlinks").

TL10: Synaptic processing is fiddled with but is not yet usable in a commercial scale (but who knows about military applications
file_23.gif
); vat-grown artificial organs could replace virtually any organ with a better copy of it; quasi-organic power sources (drawing power from glocuse using symbiotic bacteria) that have been developed in TL8 reach sufficient robustness (sp?) and low enough weight/volume to power most implanted electronics; Implanted Computers, powered by these power sources and directly connected to the sensory nerves and to the motor centers of the brain as interface are widely available; prosthetics (sp?) are now "organically" powered as well, and are light and percise enough to be almost indistinguishable from organic limbs (especially when being "sleeked", that is covered by synthtic skin); vat-grown, semi-synthetic augmented scaley skin (similar to the skin of reptiles but thinner and thus allowing better sense of touch) is allowed and offers jack-grade protection.

TL11: Synaptic processing reaches commercial use; cybereyes, cyberears, cyberarm touch sensors, implanted computers/communicators and datalinks now interface directly with the brain rather than with nerves external to it, reaching full "resolution"; vehicles could be controlled by direct neural interface better than with the use of normal controls/data links; vat-grown enhanced skin offers mesh-grade protection; cybernetic prehensile tails for Humans are a reality and so are cyber-wings that allow flight in microgravity conditions; advanced metal/ceramic/high tensile strength polymere alloys allow plating a Human body with a metal shell though this is rarely use due to social stigma and to the near loss of tactile sense in the covered areas.

TL12: Synaptic technology and vat-grown brain tissue reach high enough relaiablity to allow memory implants and intelligence enhancement; Humans could theoretically be "slaved" to a computer (MUHAHAHAHAHA!
file_23.gif
).
 
Originally posted by Flynn:
Please bear in mind that an interface that allows one-way communication for directing a robot arm doesn't necessarily mean that there's a data link that allows complex experiential(sp?) two-way communication that is understandable by the human with the implant, aka cyberdecks.
Click to expand...
There are also cyberears and cybereyes under clinical trials today IIRC. They are quite low-res (they stimulate only a fraction of the nerve fibers in each optical/auditory "bundle"), so TL9 is reasonable for good, compact, field-capable versions; a datalink is similar but without the camera/auditory sensor (an external computer gives the "graphic" interface), so it is paulsible at TL9, and so Implant Computers are probably TL10 (remember that most of an RL palmtop is the interface - that is, screen - and power source; when you use a quasi-organic power source - we almost have one today - and neural interface you could have an implanted computer). Remember that all of these interface either with nerves outside the brain (auditory and visual, later tactile) or with very primitive parts of the brain (motor areas). Interface with higher levels of the brain (thoughts, memory, higher emotions) requires some understanding of Synaptic processing, which, according to LBB8, is TL11-12; so memory/knowledge/intelligence enhancers should be TL11+, most likely TL12+.

The other implants are completely organic in nature and need only to be connected to blood vessels (possible IRL with organ transplants) and to peripheral nerves (TL8-9 should be able to fuse nerves using either NGF - the Nerve Growth Factor which was isolated IRL in the 1980's - or micro-surgery [think "nanosurgery" but with "nanobots" the size of large bacteria], probably a combination of both). They are usually vat- (or pharm animal-) grown Human organs (muscle fibers, hearts, tendrons and so on) that have been genetically engineered. Bone lacing is an early application of nanotechnology (TL9-10); muscle implants are probably TL9. Artificial glands constantly releasing certain chemicals into the bloodstream are TL8-9; such artificial glands with neural control are probably TL9-10.

MT holds that the neural jack is primitive at TL12 and reaches the levels we expect from cyber-sci-fi at TL14. (See TD13 for details.) I haven't seen anything in other canonical sources to disagree with that. (See Sigg's post above about TNE and T20.)

That being said, Sigg's post from FF&S implies that the use of prosthetic interfaces doesn't start until TL9, for simple data transfer. At TL10, you can start getting some of the cool cybernetic enhancements. Direct computer implantation (TL10) seems to imply at least complex one-way data transfer. Apparently, cyberdeck levels of data transfer two-ways via a neural link isn't possible until TL14 (another post of Sigg's), but this gives an appropriate scale to aim at for fitting in with the rest of the OTU.

Just looking for internal consistency,
Flynn [/QB]
Click to expand...
Most of this cyber is IMTU and MTU - even in the relatively conservative Solar Triumvirate - is far less conservative than the OTU imperium; also, I seek to instill a slight cyberpunk atmosphere (not major - most blatantly obvious wares are both rare and carry a social stigma). I'll publish my cybernetic ideas as a "Cybernetics and Robotics in the Solar Triumvirate" Stellar Reaches article.

So, here is IMTU's cybertech/biotech timeline:

TL3: Extremely primitive prostetics (sp?) such as wooden legs and hook hands.

TL6: Prostetics (sp?) that have some ability to manipulate objects and are operated by being linked to the remaining muscles of the amputated stump.

TL 7 (1970 to today): organ transplants between Human patients with a tolerable rate of success; in-vitro fertilization; early bacteria, fungi and yeast genetic engineering; advanced remaining-muscle-operated prostetics (sp?); primitive (very low rate of success) cloning.

TL8 (the near future): Genetic therapy by non-homologous recombination (i.e. you can insert a functioning gene into the DNA of cells in a living Human by using a retro-virus, but you can't directly over-write a malfunctioning gene); high success rate in cloning (but the clone still needs to grow inside a womb and then mature as all creatures of it's kind); organ implants could be grown in geneticall-engineered "donor" animals (typically pigs); primitive neurally-controlled prosthetics (sp?); primitive cybereyes and cyberears directly linked to the optical and auditory nerves, respectively; extremely primitive microsurgery (by using "drones" the size of yeast cells to perform simple operations); artificial glands that could constantly produce certain chemicals (such as insulin) can be implanted in Human subjects; severed nerves could be fused togather; genetic engineering of the early embryo ("germ cell"?), combined with embryo selection allows the creation of early bio-modded Humans.

TL9: High-quality interface between nerves and micro-electronics allows high-res cybereyes and cyberears that could even have certain improvements over normal vision (such as infra-red vision or light amplification); micro- and nano-electrodes inserted by microsurgical techniques to the lower brain allows p[rosthetics (sp?) to function almost as well as the original thing; the combination of the two previous technologies make Data Links into reality; homologous recombination (i.e. inserting a gene into a specific site on the genome rather than into a random one) combined with high-efficiency vectors allow effective gene therapy of almost any knid of hereditry desease in adult humans; embryos could be genetically tailored to a wide variety of purposes, including mimicing some of the features of aquatic mammals; vat-growth replaces "donor" animals and could grow enhanced organs and tissues including improved muscle, tendron and joint coating cells; micro surgery and advanced biochemical agents could lace bones with artificial polymeres that strengthen the bones yet allows them to retain their flexibility; military HUDs can now be implanted (similar to Shadowrun "smartlinks").

TL10: Synaptic processing is fiddled with but is not yet usable in a commercial scale (but who knows about military applications
file_23.gif
); vat-grown artificial organs could replace virtually any organ with a better copy of it; quasi-organic power sources (drawing power from glocuse using symbiotic bacteria) that have been developed in TL8 reach sufficient robustness (sp?) and low enough weight/volume to power most implanted electronics; Implanted Computers, powered by these power sources and directly connected to the sensory nerves and to the motor centers of the brain as interface are widely available; prosthetics (sp?) are now "organically" powered as well, and are light and percise enough to be almost indistinguishable from organic limbs (especially when being "sleeked", that is covered by synthtic skin); vat-grown, semi-synthetic augmented scaley skin (similar to the skin of reptiles but thinner and thus allowing better sense of touch) is allowed and offers jack-grade protection.

TL11: Synaptic processing reaches commercial use; cybereyes, cyberears, cyberarm touch sensors, implanted computers/communicators and datalinks now interface directly with the brain rather than with nerves external to it, reaching full "resolution"; vehicles could be controlled by direct neural interface better than with the use of normal controls/data links; vat-grown enhanced skin offers mesh-grade protection; cybernetic prehensile tails for Humans are a reality and so are cyber-wings that allow flight in microgravity conditions; advanced metal/ceramic/high tensile strength polymere alloys allow plating a Human body with a metal shell though this is rarely use due to social stigma and to the near loss of tactile sense in the covered areas.

TL12: Synaptic technology and vat-grown brain tissue reach high enough relaiablity to allow memory implants and intelligence enhancement; Humans could theoretically be "slaved" to a computer (MUHAHAHAHAHA!
file_23.gif
).
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Do the rich people in this setting replace their old organs with new ones periodically?
Click to expand...
Yes, though some tissues (brain) are far harder to replace than others; rich people could live for 200 years but not much more. Poor people (atleast in MTU's Earth's many megasprawls) have a life expectancy of around 50-60 vyears.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Do the rich people in this setting replace their old organs with new ones periodically?
Click to expand...
Yes, though some tissues (brain) are far harder to replace than others; rich people could live for 200 years but not much more. Poor people (atleast in MTU's Earth's many megasprawls) have a life expectancy of around 50-60 vyears.
 
As an aside - this, and threads like it, is how the technology of Traveller should be upgraded to modern sci fi standards IMHO.

YMMV ;)
 
As an aside - this, and threads like it, is how the technology of Traveller should be upgraded to modern sci fi standards IMHO.

YMMV ;)
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
At TL12 could someone download their memories into a vat grown brain?
Click to expand...
Not yet - remember the restrictions in LBB8 about synaptic percentages in a robot brain? Vat grown brains are far more stable, but TL12 still doesn't have a sufficient understanding nescery to download the contents of a complete brain. Just small parts of it.

So REALLY rich people in the Solar Triumvirate live as long as their brain functions (which is somewhat extended by brain implants), similarly to how some of these guys were shown in several Larry Niven novels. Think of it as primitive, high-cost anagathics (sp?).
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
At TL12 could someone download their memories into a vat grown brain?
Click to expand...
Not yet - remember the restrictions in LBB8 about synaptic percentages in a robot brain? Vat grown brains are far more stable, but TL12 still doesn't have a sufficient understanding nescery to download the contents of a complete brain. Just small parts of it.

So REALLY rich people in the Solar Triumvirate live as long as their brain functions (which is somewhat extended by brain implants), similarly to how some of these guys were shown in several Larry Niven novels. Think of it as primitive, high-cost anagathics (sp?).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top