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Darrians module astrography

jrients

SOC-11
Last night I was reading the Darrians section of my Aliens 5-8 reprint when I noticed that two maps (the inside front cover and the map on page 5) seem to be different than my Spinward Marches poster. On both maps the Sword Worlds are bifurcated into two regions, the border being a line coreward/rimward between Gram and Excalibur on one side and Tyrfing and Sacnoth on the other. The map on the inside cover also has a label for the "Border Worlds", perhaps referring to Caladbolg, Gunn, and Caliburn or perhaps referring to the trailing components of the Sword Worlds split. Are these differences errors or do these maps show the subsector at some time before or after the Spinward Marches poster? Is the Border Worlds region a multi-world polity of some sort?
 
Last night I was reading the Darrians section of my Aliens 5-8 reprint when I noticed that two maps (the inside front cover and the map on page 5) seem to be different than my Spinward Marches poster. On both maps the Sword Worlds are bifurcated into two regions, the border being a line coreward/rimward between Gram and Excalibur on one side and Tyrfing and Sacnoth on the other. The map on the inside cover also has a label for the "Border Worlds", perhaps referring to Caladbolg, Gunn, and Caliburn or perhaps referring to the trailing components of the Sword Worlds split. Are these differences errors or do these maps show the subsector at some time before or after the Spinward Marches poster? Is the Border Worlds region a multi-world polity of some sort?
 
The classic Spinward Marches poster map is set in 1105, prior to the Fifth Frontier War.

The map in AM8:Darrians is set in 1110 immediately after the Fifth Frontier War.

Simply put, the Sword Worlds got their butts kicked. The results of the Fifth Frontier War (for the Sword Worlds) were:
- Loss of the Entropic Worlds (Entrope, Winston, Anselhome) back to the Darrian Confederation.
- Being split into two Confederations. The spinward portion is what is left of the Sword Worlds Confederation. The trailing portion is a new government called the Border Worlds Confederation.

Fundamentally, the Border Worlds are a puppet government setup and and controlled by the Imperium.

(Caladbolg, Gunn, and Caliburn are still Imperial worlds. Their status did not change as a result of the war.)

If you ever see the Spinward Marches poster map included in MegaTraveller, it will show the Darrians and Sword/Border Worlds as seen in AM8:Darrians.

Hope this helps.
 
The classic Spinward Marches poster map is set in 1105, prior to the Fifth Frontier War.

The map in AM8:Darrians is set in 1110 immediately after the Fifth Frontier War.

Simply put, the Sword Worlds got their butts kicked. The results of the Fifth Frontier War (for the Sword Worlds) were:
- Loss of the Entropic Worlds (Entrope, Winston, Anselhome) back to the Darrian Confederation.
- Being split into two Confederations. The spinward portion is what is left of the Sword Worlds Confederation. The trailing portion is a new government called the Border Worlds Confederation.

Fundamentally, the Border Worlds are a puppet government setup and and controlled by the Imperium.

(Caladbolg, Gunn, and Caliburn are still Imperial worlds. Their status did not change as a result of the war.)

If you ever see the Spinward Marches poster map included in MegaTraveller, it will show the Darrians and Sword/Border Worlds as seen in AM8:Darrians.

Hope this helps.
 
Just curious...

Did the Sword Worlds ever exact *revenge* upon the Imperium when the Imperium finally broke apart during Rebellion?

I do know that the vengeful Solomani Confederation most certainly attacked almost IMMEDIATELY after the news of Strephon's assassination. Then again, the Solomani had an agenda of re-capturing DOZENS (possibly hundreds) of worlds they lost during the Rim War.

It's unfortunate that all of the Imperium's enemies (e.g. Zhodanis and Sword Worlders) were always portrayed as militarily incompetent. I always hated this notion of "The Third Imperium are the Good Guys and they Always Win Every War they Fight".
 
Just curious...

Did the Sword Worlds ever exact *revenge* upon the Imperium when the Imperium finally broke apart during Rebellion?

I do know that the vengeful Solomani Confederation most certainly attacked almost IMMEDIATELY after the news of Strephon's assassination. Then again, the Solomani had an agenda of re-capturing DOZENS (possibly hundreds) of worlds they lost during the Rim War.

It's unfortunate that all of the Imperium's enemies (e.g. Zhodanis and Sword Worlders) were always portrayed as militarily incompetent. I always hated this notion of "The Third Imperium are the Good Guys and they Always Win Every War they Fight".
 
If I recall, the Marches pulled in and stayed strong for the duration of the Rebelliion and Virus, then actually allied with the Aslan. Not a force the Swords could threaten. They were better and smarter to just be glad that they had the Marches to protect them from Virus.

As for their enemies being martially incomeptant I see where you get the idea and agree to a point. Largely though I see it, in the Spinward case, of no foe serious about conquest.

First there are the Zhondani. A mighty force by any measure and imo quite capable of handing the Imperium its arse anytime they wanted to. That is the key though. They never wanted to. They were quite content to make certain the Imperium had no desire to grow, and in that they were successful. What's more they are much more interested in the core. The true core, not the center of the Imperium.

Next in that area are the Vargr. They too have no real desire to take on the Imperium, they have all the room they need to grow the other way, besides there's better things than empire building in their genes. I for one never really liked the hokey religion angle they have.

Then the other way are the Aslan. They are a potential problem, and in the Rebellion it was one that grew rather rapidly iirc. The buffer of the rift there helped slow that confrontation perhaps, one that in another era would have seen a very bloody war, one that would have devasted the Marches regardless of who survived. And that's what it would have come to, survival, not victory. All imo of course.

And of course there are the "minor" players in the region. The Darrians, The Swords, and a couple other even smaller polities. The fact they are minor means they are no threat and can't mount a threat on their own. They will gladly back the side that promises to win and make them stronger but they won't be starting anything with the big boys, short of perfecting the Maghiz or something similar or course.

As far as the Imperium always winning, well, you need to study your history a little more
They have as many or more losses than wins.

There were the (first) Rim Wars they eventually lost to the upstart Solomani ushering in The Rule of Man. And that being the much larger (by several magnitudes) Imperium.

Over in the Marches the Imperium lost ground in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Frontier Wars, pretty much did nothing in the abortive 4th Frontier War, and faired little better in the 5th Frontier War, gaining a few worlds along the Sword Worlds border.

All in all I'd say the mighty Imperium looks pretty bad at fighting wars, no doubt due to it's size.
 
If I recall, the Marches pulled in and stayed strong for the duration of the Rebelliion and Virus, then actually allied with the Aslan. Not a force the Swords could threaten. They were better and smarter to just be glad that they had the Marches to protect them from Virus.

As for their enemies being martially incomeptant I see where you get the idea and agree to a point. Largely though I see it, in the Spinward case, of no foe serious about conquest.

First there are the Zhondani. A mighty force by any measure and imo quite capable of handing the Imperium its arse anytime they wanted to. That is the key though. They never wanted to. They were quite content to make certain the Imperium had no desire to grow, and in that they were successful. What's more they are much more interested in the core. The true core, not the center of the Imperium.

Next in that area are the Vargr. They too have no real desire to take on the Imperium, they have all the room they need to grow the other way, besides there's better things than empire building in their genes. I for one never really liked the hokey religion angle they have.

Then the other way are the Aslan. They are a potential problem, and in the Rebellion it was one that grew rather rapidly iirc. The buffer of the rift there helped slow that confrontation perhaps, one that in another era would have seen a very bloody war, one that would have devasted the Marches regardless of who survived. And that's what it would have come to, survival, not victory. All imo of course.

And of course there are the "minor" players in the region. The Darrians, The Swords, and a couple other even smaller polities. The fact they are minor means they are no threat and can't mount a threat on their own. They will gladly back the side that promises to win and make them stronger but they won't be starting anything with the big boys, short of perfecting the Maghiz or something similar or course.

As far as the Imperium always winning, well, you need to study your history a little more
They have as many or more losses than wins.

There were the (first) Rim Wars they eventually lost to the upstart Solomani ushering in The Rule of Man. And that being the much larger (by several magnitudes) Imperium.

Over in the Marches the Imperium lost ground in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Frontier Wars, pretty much did nothing in the abortive 4th Frontier War, and faired little better in the 5th Frontier War, gaining a few worlds along the Sword Worlds border.

All in all I'd say the mighty Imperium looks pretty bad at fighting wars, no doubt due to it's size.
 
The Zhodani, as far-trader mentions, have done very well against the Imperium. The only real loss they suffer (the Fifth Frontier War) was completely cosmetic (Esalin goes from being neutral to Imperial). Sure their erstwhile allies the Sword Worlds gets hammered, but that doesn't affect them. Besides, the Sword Worlds are just tools; kept while useful, discarded when not.

The Rebellion is just great for the Zhodani. All along the Zhodani were uncomfortable with their huge neighbor. The resulting Domain of Deneb was just fine with the Zhodani.

As for the Sword Worlds, no, they never exact "revenge". As a matter of fact, as the Domain of Deneb turns into the Regency, the Sword Worlds attempt a "landgrab" and fail utterly. Then end result is that, during the time of TNE (1202), the Sword Worlds are reduced to a paltry five worlds. The rest are annexed by the Regency. (Keeping to the old "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" axiom.)

You can't compare the Sword Worlds to the Solomani. The Solomani Confederation was a huge, multi-sector power. The Sword Worlds are a very minor power that barely controls most of a subsector. The Solomani were virtually on par with the Imperium technologically (TL 14). The Sword Worlds were far behind (TL 12). It's like comparing Fiji and China, but with a larger gap.
 
The Zhodani, as far-trader mentions, have done very well against the Imperium. The only real loss they suffer (the Fifth Frontier War) was completely cosmetic (Esalin goes from being neutral to Imperial). Sure their erstwhile allies the Sword Worlds gets hammered, but that doesn't affect them. Besides, the Sword Worlds are just tools; kept while useful, discarded when not.

The Rebellion is just great for the Zhodani. All along the Zhodani were uncomfortable with their huge neighbor. The resulting Domain of Deneb was just fine with the Zhodani.

As for the Sword Worlds, no, they never exact "revenge". As a matter of fact, as the Domain of Deneb turns into the Regency, the Sword Worlds attempt a "landgrab" and fail utterly. Then end result is that, during the time of TNE (1202), the Sword Worlds are reduced to a paltry five worlds. The rest are annexed by the Regency. (Keeping to the old "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" axiom.)

You can't compare the Sword Worlds to the Solomani. The Solomani Confederation was a huge, multi-sector power. The Sword Worlds are a very minor power that barely controls most of a subsector. The Solomani were virtually on par with the Imperium technologically (TL 14). The Sword Worlds were far behind (TL 12). It's like comparing Fiji and China, but with a larger gap.
 
far trader said:
Next in that area are the Vargr. They too have no real desire to take on the Imperium, they have all the room they need to grow the other way, besides there's better things than empire building in their genes. I for one never really liked the hokey religion angle they have.

Then the other way are the Aslan. They are a potential problem, and in the Rebellion it was one that grew rather rapidly iirc. The buffer of the rift there helped slow that confrontation perhaps, one that in another era would have seen a very bloody war, one that would have devasted the Marches regardless of who survived. And that's what it would have come to, survival, not victory. All imo of course.
This was one of the things that bothered me about MT. The Aslan had plenty of open space to spinward in which to expand, but the Metastory kind of shoehorned (IMO) the Aslan landgrab.

The Vargr, I could somewhat buy, but even still, I couldn't totally accept a bunch of them massing in such an organized fashion so that they could actually overtake the coreward Deneb worlds.

Of course, this is all my take. I think that this was reflected somewhat in the way that these matters were brought up in the Rebellion Sourcebook and then rarely mentioned until TNE.
 
far trader said:
Next in that area are the Vargr. They too have no real desire to take on the Imperium, they have all the room they need to grow the other way, besides there's better things than empire building in their genes. I for one never really liked the hokey religion angle they have.

Then the other way are the Aslan. They are a potential problem, and in the Rebellion it was one that grew rather rapidly iirc. The buffer of the rift there helped slow that confrontation perhaps, one that in another era would have seen a very bloody war, one that would have devasted the Marches regardless of who survived. And that's what it would have come to, survival, not victory. All imo of course.
This was one of the things that bothered me about MT. The Aslan had plenty of open space to spinward in which to expand, but the Metastory kind of shoehorned (IMO) the Aslan landgrab.

The Vargr, I could somewhat buy, but even still, I couldn't totally accept a bunch of them massing in such an organized fashion so that they could actually overtake the coreward Deneb worlds.

Of course, this is all my take. I think that this was reflected somewhat in the way that these matters were brought up in the Rebellion Sourcebook and then rarely mentioned until TNE.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:

As far as the Imperium always winning, well, you need to study your history a little more
They have as many or more loses than wins.
A patronizing assumption on your part. Re-read my post, and you realize I was specifically talking only about the achievements of the THIRD IMPERIUM.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:

As far as the Imperium always winning, well, you need to study your history a little more
They have as many or more loses than wins.
A patronizing assumption on your part. Re-read my post, and you realize I was specifically talking only about the achievements of the THIRD IMPERIUM.
 
Originally posted by Maladominus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:

As far as the Imperium always winning, well, you need to study your history a little more
They have as many or more losses than wins.
A patronizing assumption on your part. Re-read my post, and you realize I was specifically talking only about the achievements of the THIRD IMPERIUM. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, that wasn't meant as patronizing, hence the smiley. Gee, I guess you've got me on the (first) Rim War notes, my bad for posting off the top of my head. As far as the Third Imperium's "victory" over the Solomani in "that other" Rim War I'd hardly call it a decisive one, despite them going up against an outnumbered foe and pulling out all the stops.

The Frontier Wars were of course fought by the Third Imperium so my point is still valid.

At least you didn't rag on me for the spelling error. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Maladominus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:

As far as the Imperium always winning, well, you need to study your history a little more
They have as many or more losses than wins.
A patronizing assumption on your part. Re-read my post, and you realize I was specifically talking only about the achievements of the THIRD IMPERIUM. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, that wasn't meant as patronizing, hence the smiley. Gee, I guess you've got me on the (first) Rim War notes, my bad for posting off the top of my head. As far as the Third Imperium's "victory" over the Solomani in "that other" Rim War I'd hardly call it a decisive one, despite them going up against an outnumbered foe and pulling out all the stops.

The Frontier Wars were of course fought by the Third Imperium so my point is still valid.

At least you didn't rag on me for the spelling error. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Maladominus:
A patronizing assumption on your part. Re-read my post, and you realize I was specifically talking only about the achievements of the THIRD IMPERIUM.
Not to speak for far-trader, but he was predominately speaking of the Third Imperium.

- The Third Imperium lost the Julian War. This wasn't a propaganda thing; it was an outright loss.

- Despite declaring victory, the Third Imperium didn't really win the Solomani Rim War. Sure they took Terra, but that wasn't their goal. Their goal was to reintegrate the Solomani Sphere, and eliminate the nacent Solomani Confederation. They failed to do both (by a long shot). It wasn't an outright loss, but it wasn't a victory, either.

- Despite claims to the contrary, the Zhodani won most of the Frontier Wars. The only one the Imperium won was the last one, and that was purely a defensive victory. (I.e. they didn't gain any territory, they just prevented the loss of territory.)

Quite frankly, I think the portrayal of the Third Imperium has generally been pretty even-handed. Yes, they have won many of their battles and wars (other wise they wouldn't be so big). But against larger, more equal opponents, they have had only middling success.
 
Originally posted by Maladominus:
A patronizing assumption on your part. Re-read my post, and you realize I was specifically talking only about the achievements of the THIRD IMPERIUM.
Not to speak for far-trader, but he was predominately speaking of the Third Imperium.

- The Third Imperium lost the Julian War. This wasn't a propaganda thing; it was an outright loss.

- Despite declaring victory, the Third Imperium didn't really win the Solomani Rim War. Sure they took Terra, but that wasn't their goal. Their goal was to reintegrate the Solomani Sphere, and eliminate the nacent Solomani Confederation. They failed to do both (by a long shot). It wasn't an outright loss, but it wasn't a victory, either.

- Despite claims to the contrary, the Zhodani won most of the Frontier Wars. The only one the Imperium won was the last one, and that was purely a defensive victory. (I.e. they didn't gain any territory, they just prevented the loss of territory.)

Quite frankly, I think the portrayal of the Third Imperium has generally been pretty even-handed. Yes, they have won many of their battles and wars (other wise they wouldn't be so big). But against larger, more equal opponents, they have had only middling success.
 
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