Dave's vision

[daryen]

- quote -
As for Loren's continuation, I do not believe that SJG wants to change Traveller in any significant way, otherwise, they would fear that they would lose the loyality of the large CT base out there.
- end quote -

But there are lots of things that can be done to add interest, but keep the background stable.

The best example is the FFW. It was a big thing (a sector-wide war), but, in the grand scheme of things, didn't change anything. (Unless you were a Sword Worlder. )

Another example would be for Strephon to die. Assuming an orderly transition to his daughter, the overall impact is quite minor, but interesting stuff could happen all around it. I wish they would have done more with Dulinor's death.

To bring this back on topic, I hope that M1248 really is a starting point that will let things happen over time. They may not "rock the galaxy", but they can still be big and interesting, but leave the overall system stable.

 

[daryen]

- quote from MJD-
That's something the M1248 TNE setting should cover; smaller polities, wilds etc.
- unquote -

How about tech levels? While I hope that Daryen stays TL16 and Vincennes stays TL16/17, I also hope that the massive TL increases across the board seen in the Regency Sourcebook don't necessary stay. How are you approaching all of that?

 

[MJD]

A collection of replies:

No game police, but look how upset the fans got with the dictated TNE storyline.

TL increases: While I'm not willing to remove stuff that is in canon (eg Virus etc) I'm downplaying some aspects. There will be some "quiet deiscepancies" here and there as a result. For this and other reasons, you don't need to worry about the TL 16/17 uplift in the Regency.

 

[MJD]

Lucan: Hmm...

"Emperor Lucan still has a part to play on the grand stage that was the Imperium. Lucan the Black may or may not still be alive (we are not revealing which), but his part is not yet over).

 

[daryen]

kafka47:

- quote -
Therefore, I know I may not like Dave's vision or believe that it is truly Traveller. I still want to hear it to make up my own mind. And, possibly out of the synthesis we can create a better backdrop.
- unquote -

That is the problem. Dave's vision has never been explained. As far as I can figure out, there are only three people know what the "vision" was: Dave Nilsen, Loren Wiseman and Marc Miller. None of them are talking. Not only that, but none of them will even explain *why* they are not talking.

That is why MJD's efforts are so welcomed. We will get answers AND Nilsen's shadow over the game will finally be gone.

[This message has been edited by daryen (edited 20 May 2002).]

 

[MJD]

Marc doesn't know, I don't think.

 

[MJD]

That is: Dave never realy discussed TNE with Marc; I believe that Loren was asked (by Dave) not to reveal what he knows and thus won't talk about it until Dave says OK. And Dave has his reasons for not revealing it all. He was/is willing to "do it right" in a series of novels or game supplements but not just as an info-dump.

 

[doomhunk]

Interesting... thanks for this thread guys. I just became a citizen a few minutes ago, funnily enough because I am back on my lifetime quest to track down some Dave Nilsen ideas I remember reading about a loooong time ago. Shoot me if you will but I loved the TNE stuff he did. I still read the sourcebooks for fun and pleasure. I am very excited to find that MJD is going great guns with the canon! Whilst one day I hope to explore whatever Dave Nilsen's directions were, I like what I see so far with this MJD stuff, and I am soooo looking forward to an active TNE community I think that the process of trying to make some sense out of a lot of unanswered questions is a very creative way forward, and the result will be all the better for it.

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by doomhunk:
I am soooo looking forward to an active TNE community I think that the process of trying to make some sense out of a lot of unanswered questions is a very creative way forward, and the result will be all the better for it.

Are you on the TNE-RCES mailing list? Lots of high quality TNE info/discussion still goes on there, at a MUCH higher signal-to-noise ratio than the TML. If you're interested I'll try and track down the exact subscription info (or maybe it's already been posted somewhere else in these fora).

 

[Rodina]

What's the big beef with Dave Nilsen? I've been too busy with law school, career and family to do much with Traveller over the last few years except roll up the occasional character or draft a planet survey.

I never liked TNE (I never really liked MT for that matter), but I can hardly weigh in an opinion on the matter.

Can someone give me the thumbnail indictment against him?

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Rodina:
What's the big beef with Dave Nilsen?

Can someone give me the thumbnail indictment against him?

I'll try to both answer your question and tread lightly here, as I've been (rightly, I'm afraid) accused of undue Nilsen-bashing in the past, and am trying to prove I've grown and matured since then.

The chief complaints against Dave Nilsen (as I see them): </font>

1. Virus:In order to provide a clean break between the MegaTraveller storyline and the New Era, Dave introduced Virus, variously derided for both being scientifically improbable/impossible (counter-argument: it's not properly understood yet, and the 'scientific' explanations given in TNE are just theories, incomplete at best, dead wrong at worst) and for being a heavy-handed Deus ex Machina that rendered ~15 years of prior Game History irrelevant (counter-argument: the MegaTraveller storyline had grown so morally reprehensible that a complete break was the only way the Traveller milieu-as-a-whole could be redeemed. But that's the past, and TNE is about looking forward, not backward. In this case, the end justfied the means).</font>
2. Contempt for Canon:By sweeping aside everything that had come before and then justifying that action by dwelling at length on the inherently flawed assumptions behind what was swept away, Dave established a tone of smug superiority, not just to the in-milieu artifacts themselves, but, by extension, to the intellectual, philosophical, and even moral competence and character of their original creators (Counter-argument: Dave wasn't 'destroying' what came before, he was actually improving/validating it by examining it from different/better/more realistic/logical/mature perspectives. Had the storyline been allowed to develop as planned this would've become increasingly clear as more elements of the previous Canon were re-introduced and re-examined. And admit it, you know as well as Dave did that IRIS really stank as an idea).</font>
3. Milieu Micromanagement: Dave's vision of Traveller was more as a developing story than as a backdrop for individual referees to develop their own ideas against. This meant that TNE was tightly bound to a specific evolving setting and storyline that significantly limited the options of individual referees (or at least those referees who wanted to remain at least somewhat OTU-compatible). What's more, in order to maintain suspense and dramatic interest, he kept referees just as much in the dark as players regarding the Big Picture campaign structure. Thus, when TNE ceased publication there were tons of loose ends and unanswered questions, leaving individual referees woefully ill-prepared to carry on their campaigns beyond the published material, which has led to rampant speculation over the intervening years regarding where the TNE campaign must've been heading and anguished pleas for Dave to come forward and provide some answers (counter-argument: the TNE setting was dynamic and exciting, and structured in such a way that the actions of PCs had a measurable impact on the setting as a whole. Previous editions were static and boring, designed more for wargamers and armchair historians than actual roleplayers. And besides, no one's forcing you to follow Dave's storyline -- if you hate it so much why not make up your own storyline? You seem to have some unresolved codependency issues causing you to simultaneously cling to and rebel against authority. How is your relationship with your father?).</font>
4. Authorial Voice: Dave Nilsen had a very distinctive writing style that tended to be very informal, include lots of irony/jokes, lots of contemporary (i.e. 20th century American) pop cultural references, and lots of long-winded self-justification, frequently invoking post-modern literary theory and/or pop psychoanalysis. This 'pseudo-hip' style jarred violently with the traditional GDW/Traveller 'house' style and just really annoyed a lot of the existing fanbase on an irrational gut level (counter-argument: call it a matter of taste -- some people actually liked/appreciated his 'voice.' This is where the pro/anti-Dave tirades tend to start getting ugly and personal).</font>

That, in brief (ha!) is the Case Against Dave Nilsen. I've tried to present it fairly, but I'm known for being quite biased against him. If anyone feels I'm misrepresenting anything, PLEASE respond.

 

[DaddyDragon]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
That, in brief (ha!) is the Case Against Dave Nilsen. I've tried to present it fairly, but I'm known for being quite biased against him. If anyone feels I'm misrepresenting anything, PLEASE respond.

That is quite possibly the most fair, honest, accurate and concise appraisal I have yet seen. Regardless of where you consider your bias to be, I think you've been more than equitable.

Thanks.

Larry

 

[Vargas]

I'd say on the whole that isn't a bad summary of Dave's relationship to TNE and Traveller in general. (Or the gaming community's relationship to Dave). I do know that he had some very firm ideas with regard to moving the (first generation RPG) game from what I played as a teenager to what I would be playing as an adult. I personally was waiting to see how it would all come together because I had great faith that, ultimately, he was trying to create a version of Traveller that hadn't been done before and held together well under examination.

Unfortunately we never got there. Love it/him or hate it/him, you be the judge of TNE/Dave's stewardship.

 

[jalberti]

I also think this is an honest and fair appraisal. I have wondered what happened.

I have never been a real big fan of TNE, but I own almost all the suppliments. I personnaly favor MT and Rebellion era and find the TNE material good suppliments. Survival Margin is especially useful.

 

[cgriffen]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
That, in brief (ha!) is the Case Against Dave Nilsen. I've tried to present it fairly, but I'm known for being quite biased against him. If anyone feels I'm misrepresenting anything, PLEASE respond.

No, that pretty much sums it up.

The one beef I did have with Dave over the years that I played TNE and occasionally engaged in online conversation with him, was his reluctance to reveal any of the ideas he had for Traveller's future.

It came to the point where I decided he really didn't have a plan and was just stringing everybody along. I'm still not certain whether this was the case or not but he never gave any indication he had a concrete plan for the Traveller timeline's future.

While I enjoyed the TNE Regency setting, I had great contempt for the all-too-limited RCES setting and never did like Dave's writing style, which as you say, differed too sharply from prior editions of Traveller.

 

[Hyphen]

Originally posted by MJD:
That is: Dave never realy discussed TNE with Marc;.

Correct. Joe Walsh collated a number of fan questions years ago and sent them to Marc. One of his answers was that TNE occurred after his departure and thus was designed without his assistance.

I believe that Loren was asked (by Dave) not to reveal what he knows and thus won't talk about it until Dave says OK.

That's what Loren's FAQ says.

And Dave has his reasons for not revealing it all. He was/is willing to "do it right" in a series of novels or game supplements but not just as an info-dump.

Has Dave ever said this publicly? I'm trying to do a write-up of GDW history and would like to let the man speak for himself, but I don't know (a) what he has already told people about this, or (b) what his email address is.

Last I heard, Dave went to Fort Knox (or was that Bragg?) to work on the Armor 2000 (?) project with General Lon E. Maggart.

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Hyphen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And Dave has his reasons for not revealing it all. He was/is willing to "do it right" in a series of novels or game supplements but not just as an info-dump.

Has Dave ever said this publicly? I'm trying to do a write-up of GDW history and would like to let the man speak for himself, but I don't know (a) what he has already told people about this, or (b) what his email address is.
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Quoting a letter by Dave Nilsen to the TNE-RCES list dated Aug. 19, 1997:

If there is a chance for this to be "done right" (and I'll get to that in a
moment), I don't want to do it haphazardly and wrong. If, on the other
hand, I knew for a fact that it would never be able to be done at all,
ever, period, then I could randomly spill beans in whatever half-assed
fashion I wanted. I mean, what the ⌧, right? However, I don't knew yet
if it is "do it right," or "what the ⌧" time. And, this is important, I
am not convinced that I would ever want to do it wrong, simply because
something important (which this is to me) should be done right or not at
all.

This is just one short bit of a much longer message. If you'd like to see the whole thing (and don't have a copy) I'll email it over to you. It's pretty much THE primary source for 'Dave's Vision' discussions.

 

[Vargas]

I think Dave didn't 'spill the beans' about his plans because the difference between slavering fan and freelance writer and/or HIWG member was sometimes virtual at best. By practicing total control over his plans, he kept them secure.

 

[Elliot]

I don't fully understand why some Citizen of the Imperium think Dave's TNE was more mature Traveller. IMO it was a regression, it went back to the criminality and stealing that MWM's CT tried to get away from in the FFW supplement and MT High Politics by creating an interstellar government that was involved in criminality and stealing. Dave didn't take Traveller forward, he just took it back to the old militaristic cum pirate campaign of the Kininur and early JTAS.

 

[Vargas]

I see your point, however Dave was quite serious regarding what he saw as the immorality of the Rebellion and Black War settings where billions were killed simply because they lived on a strategic target. DGP and, even more so, Chuck Gannon, pulled a real nasty in terms anarchy and destruction. Right or wrong, Dave believed that force was necessary where survival was concerned. I take these to be more mature subjects than what earlier Traveller portrayed.