Defining the 990 borders for the Solomani and Hiver states in Spica sector

[Malenfant]

OK, good - just checking. I don't have any of those other books

Something from the Hiver timeline:

-2204 Map of the Terran Confederation shows Hivers to be in Spica close to current border (CT AM 6 Solomani)

The "Rule of Man" map from the MT Referee's Manual (I think it's on one of the inside covers, I only have the DTRPG download to refer to for this) doesn't show the Hivers in the Spica Sector. I dunno what year that's for though...

 

[mike wightman]

It is odd for the Hive Federation to be represented on the -2204 map since first contact wasn't until -1802

 

[mike wightman]

And just to confuse things some more, in the CT AM 7 the reason given for moving the Hiver capital to Glea (with two conflicting dates ) is to be closer to the newly opened young world sectors.
My assumption here is that for a long time there was a narrow corridor of worlds from Spica and Langere to the rest of the Hive Federation.

 

[Malenfant]

Well, you're the one that posted that date, you tell me what it means

The MT Ref Manual map doesn't show a Hiver border at all in Spica. I dunno if that's because it's only showing the RoM and deliberately not showing the races around it, or if the Hivers really hadn't reached that far at the time (unfortunately, that map doesn't show what's to trailing of Spica in that era).

We know the Hivers where in the Extolian sector (one to spinward of the Ricenden sector containing Guaran) in the -3000s because they met the Ithlkur there.

That said, the Hive Federation wasn't even formed until -2023. Presumably before that there was just a loose conglomerate of worlds in Hiver space. But presumably around the RoM era the Hivers were one or two sectors to trailing of Spica.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
[QB] And just to confuse things some more, in the CT AM 7 the reason given for moving the Hiver capital to Glea (with two conflicting dates ) is to be closer to the newly opened young world sectors.

GT AR3 says (to paraphrase) that around 410 the Federation capital was moved to Glea to facilitate the manipulation of "a statistically improbable number of worlds in the Centrax, Lorspane, and Drakken sectors that are home to promising primitive races".

Presumably Spica doesn't have this unusually high number of minor sapient races.

My assumption here is that for a long time there was a narrow corridor of worlds from Spica and Langere to the rest of the Hive Federation.

What reason is there to assume that? Perhaps expansion into Spica nad Langere is more recent. I could easily believe that the border at the time was around the spinward edge of the Phlask/Drakken sectors and that the space between them and the Solomani was unoccupied.

Just as a separate point, what was the Solomani state that was present the region between -1100 (when the Old Earth Union was formed) and 870 (when the Solomani Confederation was formed)?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Well, you're the one that posted that date, you tell me what it means

The Hivers manipulated the map makers

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Malenfant
GT AR3 says (to paraphrase) that around 410 the Federation capital was moved to Glea to facilitate the manipulation of "a statistically improbable number of worlds in the Centrax, Lorspane, and Drakken sectors that are home to promising primitive races".

In AM 7 it gives 410 and 490 as the dates for moving to Glea with a date of -866 for the Hivers originally colonising Glea.
MT IE gives the date as 489, which date shall we take?
I'd go for 410, and, if so authorised, will change my timeline post.

 

[Malenfant]

It probably doesn't really make that much difference in practice for Spica... Let's say it's 490 (the GT date is "around 410", so it's more vague than the IE and AM7 date).

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Just as a separate point, what was the Solomani state that was present the region between -1100 (when the Old Earth Union was formed) and 870 (when the Solomani Confederation was formed)?

To answer that we have to look at Solomani and Aslan, I can't remember seeing such info anywhere else.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Solomani and Aslan. If that's a DGP product, we need to avoid looking into it.

 

[Malenfant]

Here's what GT Rim of Fire has to say about the Solomani after the Long Night starts:

There were four main states in the Solomani Rim sector during the Long Night - The Dingir League, the Easter Concord, the Terran Mercantile Community, and the Vegan Polity. The TMC became the Old Earth Union in -1110. The Bootean League formed later in -400.

The IISS of the Third Imperium first enter the Solomani Rim around IY 100. By 200 the aforementioned Rim States were all trading and talking to eachother.

In 426 the Easter Concord joined the Imperium. In 582 the Dingir League joined. In 586 the Vegan Polity was co-erced into joining the 3I. Then in 588 the OEU joined. The Bootean League stayed outside the 3I. It also mentions that there were several Solomani states in the Magyar and Alpha Crucis sectors that also remained independent.

In 704 Empress Margaret I created the Solomani Autonomous Region. The Solomani Movement grew and eventually took control over the Solomani Autonomous Region by 860. Then in 871 it was reorganised into the Solomani Confederation.

Around 920 worlds started to secede from the Confederation back into Imperial hands. Around 940 the Solomani protest at Imperial incursions into their space, basically telling them to butt out under terms of the SAR charter. The Solomani Charter is then revoked, and more tensions brewed during the distraction of the Third Frontier War (979-986).

(Interestingly the GT corebook is not consistent here. It claims that the Confederation was dissolved by Margaret II in 950... five years after she died! I think the date of 940 is correct - the text in RoF implies that Emperor Styryx inherited the situation from Margaret)

In late 989 (after the abdication of Styryx) the Confederation declared itself independent, and open war between the Imperium and Solomani Confederation was declared in 990.

The book mentions Solomani advances into the Daibei and Diaspora sectors in the early years of the war, but in 993 the Solomani are repulsed with big losses as they try to make a big push into the Old Expanses sector (not too far from Spica...). This appears to be the turning point in the war, as the Solomani went on the defensive after this. But as of 993, this has only just happened (or may yet happen in T20's future).

 

[far-trader]

Well, for those who can't access Yahoo groups look what I just found. An ancient yahoo personal page I keep meaning to do something with.

Far-Trader's X-mail Server

Well for now I've posted the jpg blending the allegiances and positions of the systems with the dual borders. This is only a starting point to work from (and rough at that). General comments here of course.

The map shows Hiver allied systems in blue, Solomani allied systems in yellow, and non-aligned systems in green. The grey systems are FDA posts (Hf/Xh) (by the way, probably not the place to ask but can someone PM or post me a brief on what FDA posts are, please

)

Sector capitals are the larger red crosses on systems (guessed at some allegiances) while the smaller red crosses on systems are subsector (?) capitals. I'd apprecitate a check by fresh eyes but I think it's all good.*

Spica, the star, is the smallish red circle. And I'm curious why it bears special mention, again a brief primer please. Gee you scan a sector once years ago and miss so much

The darker border is the Hive Federation border circa -2204 while the lighter border is the Hive Federation border and the Solomani Confederation border circa 1111.

* edit - actually I'll try to do a through check myself later, comparing it to the AotI data posted by Sigg (presuming they are the same based on a quick look earlier)

<EDIT> oops, I said pdf (lazy cut-n-paster I am ), it's actually just a jpg

 

[Malenfant]

I'm working on my own map based just visually following the borders... I'm only highlighting the existing hipop worlds though (just for reference). it'll be interesting to compare them...

BTW, how do the Hivers have a border in the Spica sector in -2204?!

Also, I'm seeing the map thumbnail image but I'm not seeing a link to download the PDF...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
BTW, how do the Hivers have a border in the Spica sector in -2204?!

Yep, according to the map in the back of CT Alien Module 6 at least. It's pretty close to what is shown for 1111 and extends down into Langere sector as well which would also appear to be pretty static.

<EDIT> Oh, "how"

Gotta read Umm, I dunno, it's just what is printed.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Also, I'm seeing the map thumbnail image but I'm not seeing a link to download the PDF...

I can't upload pdf there, just jpg or gif. Most browsers will have an option to view and/or download the image by clicking the thumbnail. That should give you the full size view and/or allow you to save it locally.

p.s. see my edit in my reply just above

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I can't upload pdf there, just jpg or gif. Most browsers will have an option to view and/or download the image by clicking the thumbnail. That should give you the full size view and/or allow you to save it locally.[/QB]

Oh. It looks really tiny in the browser, I didn't realise that if you downloaded the image you got a fullsize file

. Ta.

BTW, I posted a new proposal for Hiver expansion in a separate thread. See what you think...