Proposal: Hiver (and Solomani) border expansion history

[Malenfant]

Well, we clearly have to figure out what's going on with these Sleeper ships, because it seems that this is yet another canonical ambiguity - I don't recall seeing anything in RoF or the CT Solomani Rim supplement that mentioned these.

And I do wonder where they're sending them to. I'd imagine that they'd have determined specific target stars likely to have habitable worlds that weren't too far away (ie in the Solomani Rim sector) as targets. It makes little sense to send a sleeper ship off in a random direction and hope that they find something.

 

[mike wightman]

OK, a bit more info from TCS may help:

Early in the space-faring history of Terra, a long-range program of intersteller colonization was begun, only to be abandoned by the discovery of the jump drive. Before that abandonment, however, several large colony expeditions were launched. The most ambitious such effort was launched in 2050 by the European Space Agency.

Note it says "a program" and "several... expeditions". Problem is ther is no mention of other world powers.
So what do people think?
Is the ESA project the largest because the USA, China, Japan, or India have already launched expeditions, and ESA, out of national pride, wants to join the club?
Some of the other states may have sent their colony ships a bit closer to home than the 2500 year journey of the ESA ships, i.e., to Spica.

 

[mike wightman]

By the way, ESA sent 3 ships. Each was a hollowed out asteroid with 1000 crew, and 100,000 colonists, with enough space for a tenfold increase in crew size during the journey.

There was no shortage of volunteers since many of them were already living in aftificial space colonies (which implies that once you have a population living in high tech orbitals they don't mind living in large high tech asteroid worlds that provide for all the creature comforts ).

The total population of the worlds colonized by these ships by IY 1106 is 16.3 billion, made up of six pop 9 worlds (one of which is an asteroid belt mainworld), and one pop A.

p.s. this is before population digits were invented, which you can get from the TNR Regency sourcebook, but many people don't like what the population multipliers do to the original setting

 

[Flynn]

Malenfant,

I think the phrase to remember in regards to these sleeper ships is simply: "They missed." They missed their intended target, perhaps due to bad aim, but more likely due to either equipment failure or interference by an external force, whether natural or artificial. Yeah, they were aimed at a closer star, and they missed.

It's simple, I know, but if everything worked right all the time, it wouldn't be realistic.

-Flynn

 

[Malenfant]

Didn't one of these sleeper ships end up founding of the Prometheus colony at Alpha Centauri? Or am I misremembering something?

If so, there are at least two other ships to account for... how fast were they supposed to be going? What sort of ships were they?

I doubt that they'd "miss" due to a bad aim... something else going wrong en route would be more likely. The question then is whether the ships would survive long enough to reach wherever they ended up, since presumably they're only built to last a certain amount of time. Plus if a ship "misses" its target star then it is vastly more likely that its path is not going to naturally intersect another star - someone would have to wake up and redirect the ship to a star that may end up not having worlds that are particularly habitable. In which case, it could be that the colonies founded by these sleeper ships out of necessity might not have survived long.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
The map, in general, is pretty cool.

Thank you.

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
However, it shows the -1800 green border to barely reach into Phlask sector. Also, it shows the 490 blue border right on the Phlask/Spica edge.

The Hivers were already well into Spica and Langere by -2204, and had, apparently, been there for a while at that point. See the map on the inside front cover of CT:Alien Module 6: Solomani.

Yes, but them being there in -2204 makes no sense when you look at the rest of their history. The biggest problem is this - why would it take the Hivers 2600 years to figure out that the Young Worlds were worth moving the capital for? They were clearly into manipulating races that they found (see Ithklur) by that time. My proposed solution is to just say that they didn't get there til much later on, nearer to 490. Plus it seems to be a more logical expansion over time to me. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that does sound reasonable when put that way. It does change the scope of Solomani activities in Spica and Phlask at that time, though. Rather substantially.

 

[mike wightman]

All three ESA ships travelled to where they were aimed, the crew of 1000 were aided by colonists, 750 of who were woken at a time for a 5 year period during the journey.
The ships were reaction driven and must have travelled at a considerable fraction of the speed of light since they covered about 160 parsecs in 2500 years, which makes it approximately 0.2c cruising velocity.

 

[Malenfant]

So where were they aimed? Does it mention that?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
It does change the scope of Solomani activities in Spica and Phlask at that time, though. Rather substantially. [/QB]

If you're talking about the -2204 era then from the sound of it, there doesn't appear to have been any Solomani activities in the Spica and Phlask sectors at the time - they were probably still setting up polities in Alpha Crucis around then. The Hivers might have been probing the trailing edge of the Phlask sector at that time though, if you follow the timeline in my map.

 

[mike wightman]

They are the ships that colonized the Islands subsectors in Reft.

 

[Malenfant]

Reft's way over on the spinward/rimward side of the Imperium though isn't it? Maybe I've missed something here, but why are we thinking that they sent any in the direction of Spica? Or are you suggesting that the other nations sent their ships this way?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
It does change the scope of Solomani activities in Spica and Phlask at that time, though. Rather substantially.

If you're talking about the -2204 era then from the sound of it, there doesn't appear to have been any Solomani activities in the Spica and Phlask sectors at the time - they were probably still setting up polities in Alpha Crucis around then. The Hivers might have been probing the trailing edge of the Phlask sector at that time though, if you follow the timeline in my map. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I meant, if the Hiver border is over in Phlask -1800, and the Solomani contact the Hiver in -1802, then the Solomani have got scout starcraft ranging two and a half sectors trailing away from their home territory while simultaneously locked in a struggle to control the Second Imperium, which is off to coreward.

 

[Klaus]

I keep thinking of the way the Vikings colonised Iceland and Newfoundland. Ol' Leif Ericsson just jumped in his ship (and a Viking longboat was a massive financial investment to a Norse community - maybe even equivalent to a sleeper ship to an Earth power circa 2050) and sailed west, no idea if there was land or not.

Columbus thought he was heading to the Spice Islands, but he bumped into America.

What if they got to their destination but decided it wasn't as good as what they thought, and decided to move on (if they stay that could be a reason for hi-pop vac worlds)

Has anyone read Salt by Adam Roberts? It describes a sleepr fleet, the journey and the colonisation. The world they get too is far far saltier than what the probe said, but they still colonise, and then all fall out and fight a civil war. Its more politics than science but there's useful info there.

 

[Flynn]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Reft's way over on the spinward/rimward side of the Imperium though isn't it? Maybe I've missed something here, but why are we thinking that they sent any in the direction of Spica? Or are you suggesting that the other nations sent their ships this way?

I think it's an American saying, but I'm sure it still applies: "Never put all your eggs in one basket." Yeah, I believe people may be suggesting that the ESA or someone else did indeed aim for other stars besides the one that lay between Sol and Reft sector.

Hope that helps,
Flynn

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
I meant, if the Hiver border is over in Phlask -1800, and the Solomani contact the Hiver in -1802, then the Solomani have got scout starcraft ranging two and a half sectors trailing away from their home territory while simultaneously locked in a struggle to control the Second Imperium, which is off to coreward. [/QB]

Or the Hivers could have sent scouts two and a half sectors to spinward when all they wanted to do was find out what was out there

.

Or perhaps both sides' scouting forces met halfway in Alpha Crucis.

Would it not be possible for the Hivers to be the ones initiating first contact?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Flynn:
I think it's an American saying, but I'm sure it still applies: "Never put all your eggs in one basket." Yeah, I believe people may be suggesting that the ESA or someone else did indeed aim for other stars besides the one that lay between Sol and Reft sector.

[/QB]

That's fair enough. Actually, it'd be interesting if some other nation's ships headed out here. An Indian colony in the Spica sector would add a bit of cultural variability...

 

[mike wightman]

Other countries sending their sleeper shipt to trailing is exactly what I'm suggesting.
ESA went for the biggest and most ambitious project, why?
My theory is that the other powers mentioned were sending out smaller missioms in other directions, a couple of which could have ended up in Spica.

 

[Klaus]

Updated the scratch map on my site, with J2 routes culled from the CORE maps.

Its apparent that the Sollies are much better served by economic routes into Spica from their interior than the Hivers.
They definitely have one route, but the one rimward/trailing cuts across Langere sector into the Trailing unknown sector, so we could cut this route if we want.

The lack of good routes for their ships might explain why the Hivers didn't push further before the Sols got there...?

 

[M. Chester]

Greetings from the Hive Federation, Cartographers!

Kwestions for Klaus:

What does "CF", as in "CF Stronghold" mean?

Has a provision been made for the Federation Depot Worlds?

In the Spica Sector that I and my compatriots are used to, there are several Worlds on our border that serve as a mustering point for Trade Missions with the Solomani. These world not only house vast quantities of Trade Goods, but respectable sized populations of Federation Members and their assistants...

Quatre (Hex 1319 by the Old Map) is an example of this...

Why was Pink selected as a Color to represent the Federation Territory?

Is there a way to decrease the refresh rate on that magnificent Die Roller?

Are you sure there are enough Federation Worlds?

 

[Klaus]

Well the original map was produced by Malenfant, after some discussion as to where borders might be, based on existing starmaps. Allegiances were changed to more reflect the nominal border.

CF is Confederation, maybe I should use SCF!

The Trade bases sounds like a good idea; it gives the Hivers a slightly different flavour and a starting point for how we're gonna organise them. I've noticed that Hiver space is not at the forefront of peoples thoughts.

I think Mal used pink coz its different from Blue. Thats design issues that can wait til the data is produced.

The die ticker is a work-in-progress; I'm already thinking off sticking a timer on it so users can set the refresh.

I think there are enough Fed worlds, as Hiver space offers less scope for 'general' scenarios; adventures set here would tend to be more specificated to Hiver space.