See that this could be taken over by SDBs, not needing jump capable DDs or DEs...
Difference beween Escort Destroyer and Fleet Destroyer?
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
See that this could be taken over by SDBs, not needing jump capable DDs or DEs...
Yep, the escorts would only need to be jump capable if supplied by a central authority. 200 tn SDBs are quite cheap and with good computers can take on most small threats.
There might be a merc business in supplying TL15 200tn SDBs to backwater planets on lease.
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A pointless piece of speculation. If there is no threat, you do not need protection.
If the threat is from 1 armed merchant, forcing convoys and having them wait for escorts that might otherwise be used for chasing the merchant, is expensive.
How many lightly armed merchant threats are required for you to choose protecting all traffic, rather than hunting pirates? Currently maybe a handful?
I agree though with your point that escorting merchant traffic through jump space is pointless in most cases.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Major trade routes will have security flotillas at both ends, those that don't have much traffic and/or a major convoy will have an accompanying escort.
Sort of like zonal marking.
Then you'll have a mobile sweeper force seeing if they can net a raider, or acting like a reserve force if they're close enough to a convoy being attacked.
Sort of like zonal marking.
Then you'll have a mobile sweeper force seeing if they can net a raider, or acting like a reserve force if they're close enough to a convoy being attacked.
Garyius2003
SOC-13
Regina in peace or war is going to have system defense boats at or near the jump points, and probably CEs or destroyer escorts coming by fairly often at the same points on their major trade route stop overs. That takes care of merchant ships trying criminal acts (mostly).
In war it depends which system and TL you are playing. HG higher TLs with bay weapons, or Mongoose with torpedoes, needs the same or better armed ships or boats to defend convoys. If you use coordinated squadron jumps, I think navy ships will be used for the escort, because in times of peace they are useful for all the side jobs/patrols/showing the flag. In war you can reroute a convoy with jump escorts, but boats are stuck.
Nothing stops a High Lightning (with upgraded scoops) from raiding a convoy except an escorting cruiser, or two.
In war it depends which system and TL you are playing. HG higher TLs with bay weapons, or Mongoose with torpedoes, needs the same or better armed ships or boats to defend convoys. If you use coordinated squadron jumps, I think navy ships will be used for the escort, because in times of peace they are useful for all the side jobs/patrols/showing the flag. In war you can reroute a convoy with jump escorts, but boats are stuck.
Nothing stops a High Lightning (with upgraded scoops) from raiding a convoy except an escorting cruiser, or two.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Agreed.
I assumed a serious threat, such as a major war, so the raiders would be enemy warships or merchant cruisers.
200 Dt SDBs would be excellent to intimidate Free Traders, but is no threat to a warship.
Convoys for ships that jump are rather superfluous because on the jumping end once they hit the 100D limit they can jump (group jump plotting notwithstanding). On the arrival end it's going to only be by chance that raiders will be lucky enough (and able) to intercept them after arrival and they begin making their way towards their planetary destination. 100D space is BIG, plus the rules state that a ship maintains course and heading leaving jump space as it had entering jump space. The rules, however, state that velocities of opposing ships are set to zero when having an encounter, but rule conflicts are common. And, let's be honest, if the former is true, there would be very few, if any, successful pirate attacks since a ship could easily blow past any pirate ship and still decelerate under the watchful defenses of a planet (unless it didn't have any, then yes, the ship is vulnerable still).
But this totally ignores all the in-system shipping that would occur. A solar system is big and full of resources - and those resources are going to need stations and colonies to support their extraction. In-system traffic might be even heavier than outsystem since it's far cheaper to do. Plus you are going to have habitats for additional reasons spread throughout a system. That means you are going to have lots of ships, tugs and liners traveling pretty regularly. Think of a Earth-Mars route. Even ten million colonists would generate substantial back and forth traffic that would be vulnerable to raiders if a war was going on. Even pirates might try to take a bite - assuming they had a place to take their loot. As we've seen from today sometimes piracy is really just kidnapping - paying a few million credits for a ship and it's cargo might be the goal of a pirate, too.
SDB's could certainly keep a pirate infestation at bay, or at least prune it down to a reasonable level. But actual warships would prove to be more than an SDB could handle. A destroyer squadron doing the raid would need to be opposed by a similar force. Destroyer escorts would be able to hold off smaller raiders, and slow down a destroyer squadron, perhaps even long enough for ships to scatter or help to be vectored in.
So convoy escorts would need to be appropriate for the type of opposition you would expect. As your raiders increased their firepower so to would the defenders need to increase theirs.
But this totally ignores all the in-system shipping that would occur. A solar system is big and full of resources - and those resources are going to need stations and colonies to support their extraction. In-system traffic might be even heavier than outsystem since it's far cheaper to do. Plus you are going to have habitats for additional reasons spread throughout a system. That means you are going to have lots of ships, tugs and liners traveling pretty regularly. Think of a Earth-Mars route. Even ten million colonists would generate substantial back and forth traffic that would be vulnerable to raiders if a war was going on. Even pirates might try to take a bite - assuming they had a place to take their loot. As we've seen from today sometimes piracy is really just kidnapping - paying a few million credits for a ship and it's cargo might be the goal of a pirate, too.
SDB's could certainly keep a pirate infestation at bay, or at least prune it down to a reasonable level. But actual warships would prove to be more than an SDB could handle. A destroyer squadron doing the raid would need to be opposed by a similar force. Destroyer escorts would be able to hold off smaller raiders, and slow down a destroyer squadron, perhaps even long enough for ships to scatter or help to be vectored in.
So convoy escorts would need to be appropriate for the type of opposition you would expect. As your raiders increased their firepower so to would the defenders need to increase theirs.
A few thoughts:
Piracy is differentiated from commerce raiding in that the pirate ideally would like to make a profit and avoid damage. That limits the likely size of a pirate since the larger and more profitable targets are also the most heavily defended; pirates must rely on effective intelligence and seek targets that frequent the more remote and undefended areas, which are likely to be small. Convoys are usually pointless: an effective pirate organization would avoid patterns that might make convoys useful and would lie low when convoys are used, though the Vargr may be less disciplined about it. Anti-piracy efforts would focus on hunting or ambushing them.
The wartime commerce raider does not care about profit - his goal is to cause trouble while surviving the encounter. Ideally, the commerce raider would like to eliminate his merchant targets, but it can be sufficient to simply damage them if his ultimate goal is to cause the enemy to divert resources to defense. High pop worlds like Rhylanor and Jewell will have sufficient defense available to escort ships to jump and to monitor the jump perimeter against intruders that might come in within weapons range of the jump perimeter. Lysen, though, only has a population of a few million and lacks defenses that might seriously challenge a warship running a commerce-raiding mission, but there's a cyan main route running from it to Jewell. Assuming Jewell is not being blockaded, a convoy running from Jewell to Lysen might be advisable. Risek similarly has significant trade but lacks effective defenses.
If you're using High Guard, your convoy escort does not need to be a match for the raider. It needs to be agile and small, able to evade hits long enough either for whatever defenses the world has can arrive to help, or long enough to get the convoy from jump to atmosphere, where they can land and take cover. It needs a military-grade computer, so it's probably a Navy destroyer escort, under 2000 dT and with maximum agility and heavy armor so hard to hit and hard to damage if hit - sacrificing firepower to achieve that. Presumably it can repair battle damage at the local starport. Jump capability doesn't need to be more than that of the typical merchantman - which on that map means about jump-2 or jump-3, leaving more room for that armor. Being small also means there can be a lot more of them, so able to provide escort to more convoys and cover more area. Destroyers or cruisers could be tasked off to hunt intruding raiders, depending on the raider's size; fewer ships would be required for such a hunt than would be required to be everywhere protecting every significant port.
Of course, this does point out the problem that some of these high traffic worlds lack much of anything in the way of defense. Unless there's some mutual agreement against bombing starports, those worlds remain vulnerable. The Imperium might need to finance some minimum level of planetary defense at the worlds along these trade routes, at least strong enough to persuade cruisers to stay out of reach.
Piracy is differentiated from commerce raiding in that the pirate ideally would like to make a profit and avoid damage. That limits the likely size of a pirate since the larger and more profitable targets are also the most heavily defended; pirates must rely on effective intelligence and seek targets that frequent the more remote and undefended areas, which are likely to be small. Convoys are usually pointless: an effective pirate organization would avoid patterns that might make convoys useful and would lie low when convoys are used, though the Vargr may be less disciplined about it. Anti-piracy efforts would focus on hunting or ambushing them.
The wartime commerce raider does not care about profit - his goal is to cause trouble while surviving the encounter. Ideally, the commerce raider would like to eliminate his merchant targets, but it can be sufficient to simply damage them if his ultimate goal is to cause the enemy to divert resources to defense. High pop worlds like Rhylanor and Jewell will have sufficient defense available to escort ships to jump and to monitor the jump perimeter against intruders that might come in within weapons range of the jump perimeter. Lysen, though, only has a population of a few million and lacks defenses that might seriously challenge a warship running a commerce-raiding mission, but there's a cyan main route running from it to Jewell. Assuming Jewell is not being blockaded, a convoy running from Jewell to Lysen might be advisable. Risek similarly has significant trade but lacks effective defenses.
If you're using High Guard, your convoy escort does not need to be a match for the raider. It needs to be agile and small, able to evade hits long enough either for whatever defenses the world has can arrive to help, or long enough to get the convoy from jump to atmosphere, where they can land and take cover. It needs a military-grade computer, so it's probably a Navy destroyer escort, under 2000 dT and with maximum agility and heavy armor so hard to hit and hard to damage if hit - sacrificing firepower to achieve that. Presumably it can repair battle damage at the local starport. Jump capability doesn't need to be more than that of the typical merchantman - which on that map means about jump-2 or jump-3, leaving more room for that armor. Being small also means there can be a lot more of them, so able to provide escort to more convoys and cover more area. Destroyers or cruisers could be tasked off to hunt intruding raiders, depending on the raider's size; fewer ships would be required for such a hunt than would be required to be everywhere protecting every significant port.
Of course, this does point out the problem that some of these high traffic worlds lack much of anything in the way of defense. Unless there's some mutual agreement against bombing starports, those worlds remain vulnerable. The Imperium might need to finance some minimum level of planetary defense at the worlds along these trade routes, at least strong enough to persuade cruisers to stay out of reach.
Good post, I'll add a couple of points.
Better is to cause trouble while avoiding damage, as combat damage is the enemy of commerce raiders. Either they are more vulnerable in the next encounter or they seek repairs. Safe harbour is a long way away and they fail in the mission of diverting resources if they are no longer a threat.
The safest places to cause trouble will be in-sytem, far from the main world. Refueling is easier and assets are far lass protected, if at all. The mere threat of an enemy raider in a system is enough to divert massive resources.
As an example, little New Zealand in the late 18th and early 19th century, twice made preparations (coastal defences) to fight off the threat of Russian invasion (what were they thinking.. [FONT=arial,helvetica]
). Then it was the Germans, then the Japanese. My point is creating fear can cause systems to react with disproportionate and costly measures. Creating that fear is the goal of commerce raiders.
Rational heads will say, "They raided a mining camp, they are not a threat.". But systems are largely controlled by people influenced by less rational views. "OMG, they raided a mining camp and slaughtered every man, woman, child and sophont. What next!?". Leaders "must" be seen to do "something" or risk being seen as out-of-touch or worse, ineffective as public angst rises. After ineffective comes coups.
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Merchant versus Escort - no contest. So merchants will avoid escorts or die.
Merchant versus undefended outer system resources - almost no contest (miners are tough SOBs). Outer system resources are static and cannot avoid commerce raiders.
Better is to cause trouble while avoiding damage, as combat damage is the enemy of commerce raiders. Either they are more vulnerable in the next encounter or they seek repairs. Safe harbour is a long way away and they fail in the mission of diverting resources if they are no longer a threat.
The safest places to cause trouble will be in-sytem, far from the main world. Refueling is easier and assets are far lass protected, if at all. The mere threat of an enemy raider in a system is enough to divert massive resources.
As an example, little New Zealand in the late 18th and early 19th century, twice made preparations (coastal defences) to fight off the threat of Russian invasion (what were they thinking.. [FONT=arial,helvetica]
). Then it was the Germans, then the Japanese. My point is creating fear can cause systems to react with disproportionate and costly measures. Creating that fear is the goal of commerce raiders.Rational heads will say, "They raided a mining camp, they are not a threat.". But systems are largely controlled by people influenced by less rational views. "OMG, they raided a mining camp and slaughtered every man, woman, child and sophont. What next!?". Leaders "must" be seen to do "something" or risk being seen as out-of-touch or worse, ineffective as public angst rises. After ineffective comes coups.
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More is relative. When your opponent is using cheap and plentiful sub 400tn armed merchants at a fraction of the price (old too, why risk your most modern merchant ships). The few very large escorts will not be able to spread far enough and may well be kept back to defend the main world and its trade, leaving the rest of each system to remain vulnerable.
Merchant versus Escort - no contest. So merchants will avoid escorts or die.
Merchant versus undefended outer system resources - almost no contest (miners are tough SOBs). Outer system resources are static and cannot avoid commerce raiders.
epicenter00
SOC-13
I don't think the Earth history versions of destroyers and escort destroyers are valid in Traveller. To flog that very old dead horse (my apologies to everyone on here who's tired of hearing it): The categories exist out of some obsessive need of writers to make the Imperial Navy into a WW2 navy (specifically the US Navy) and ensure every major class of warship exists:
Escort Destroyers existed to escort convoys of ships across the sea. In Traveller, nothing can attack you in Jump Space. In fact, you don't really even have a "convoy" in Jump Space for the same reason. The likelihood of "pirates" intercepting you at 100D from your destination has been the subject of debate, probably for as long as Traveller has been around. However OTU-as-written seems to say that it does occur, but I think it is a job that is better handled by Patrol Cruisers and SDBs. So I largely think the role of DEs-protecting-Liberty ships is an image that has no analogue in the TU.
For that reason, if you want to do the least "damage" to the Traveller universe, I'd say that DEs (and DDs) have nothing to do with escorting merchant vessels and instead are described by another mission:
Destroyer Escorts are defensive in concept, intended to stay relatively close to larger (more valuable) combatants and part of the larger fleet in fleet actions. They provide an intercepting screen against small and medium-sized threats for the larger ships in their own fleet. If you are in a TU where fighters are ineffective (OTU-by-rules, particularly High Guard) DEs are primarily intended to screen cruisers against attacks by enemy destroyers and cruisers. If you are in a Traveller Universe where fighters are somehow effective (OTU-as-described), DEs would have an additional role of defending the fleet from fighters. They tend to be short-legged, with mediocre living conditions, and lack the sensors, ammunition supply, and fuel supplies. They often even lack fuel purifiers as they will always be with a fleet and can depend on fleet fuel tankers. Their living conditions can be cramped as they can often utilize the facilities of larger warships or dedicated tenders on long cruises.
Destroyers or Fleet Destroyers, despite their name, are much more flexible warships. They are also more expensive. Being more multi-role, they are more flexible in mission per ton of displacement but they lack the weaponry that a DE has per ton (eg; DEs are more cost-effective in the fleet defense role). Fleet Destroyers can be used as close screening ships, but are more intended to be pickets and screens for the fleet as a whole. They are also capable of frontier refuelling, their crew facilities are more extensive, and so on, allowing them to be detached from the fleet for long periods of time, often escorting a cruiser or a battleship in detached duties such as anti-piracy and "showing the flag." In fleet actions they tend to be the distant pickets and skirmishers tasked to investigate moons, shadows of planets, and so on for lurking enemies and engaging enemy ships doing the same thing. An important (but unglamorous) duty of Fleet Destroyers are to form "wolfpacks" to finish off crippled enemy warships, particularly those trying to withdraw under their own power.
Escort Destroyers existed to escort convoys of ships across the sea. In Traveller, nothing can attack you in Jump Space. In fact, you don't really even have a "convoy" in Jump Space for the same reason. The likelihood of "pirates" intercepting you at 100D from your destination has been the subject of debate, probably for as long as Traveller has been around. However OTU-as-written seems to say that it does occur, but I think it is a job that is better handled by Patrol Cruisers and SDBs. So I largely think the role of DEs-protecting-Liberty ships is an image that has no analogue in the TU.
For that reason, if you want to do the least "damage" to the Traveller universe, I'd say that DEs (and DDs) have nothing to do with escorting merchant vessels and instead are described by another mission:
Destroyer Escorts are defensive in concept, intended to stay relatively close to larger (more valuable) combatants and part of the larger fleet in fleet actions. They provide an intercepting screen against small and medium-sized threats for the larger ships in their own fleet. If you are in a TU where fighters are ineffective (OTU-by-rules, particularly High Guard) DEs are primarily intended to screen cruisers against attacks by enemy destroyers and cruisers. If you are in a Traveller Universe where fighters are somehow effective (OTU-as-described), DEs would have an additional role of defending the fleet from fighters. They tend to be short-legged, with mediocre living conditions, and lack the sensors, ammunition supply, and fuel supplies. They often even lack fuel purifiers as they will always be with a fleet and can depend on fleet fuel tankers. Their living conditions can be cramped as they can often utilize the facilities of larger warships or dedicated tenders on long cruises.
Destroyers or Fleet Destroyers, despite their name, are much more flexible warships. They are also more expensive. Being more multi-role, they are more flexible in mission per ton of displacement but they lack the weaponry that a DE has per ton (eg; DEs are more cost-effective in the fleet defense role). Fleet Destroyers can be used as close screening ships, but are more intended to be pickets and screens for the fleet as a whole. They are also capable of frontier refuelling, their crew facilities are more extensive, and so on, allowing them to be detached from the fleet for long periods of time, often escorting a cruiser or a battleship in detached duties such as anti-piracy and "showing the flag." In fleet actions they tend to be the distant pickets and skirmishers tasked to investigate moons, shadows of planets, and so on for lurking enemies and engaging enemy ships doing the same thing. An important (but unglamorous) duty of Fleet Destroyers are to form "wolfpacks" to finish off crippled enemy warships, particularly those trying to withdraw under their own power.
This is a TL15 view of fighters. At mid techs, TL11-13, fighters are highly effective. It is only at TL14, 15 that max computers and the EPs required make fleet fighters too expensive. Through the tech levels, the HG dynamic changes between capital ships versus carriers..
Agreed, and I like your gritty description of the working conditions. Your points are also echoed in the Fighting Ships description of the PF Sloan Fleet Escort.
However within the mechanics of the HG rules, there is no role for ships screening others in the main battle line. Ships can only use active defenses against fire that ship receives. A bit of an oversight IMO that prevents the PF Sloan's combat mission unless you house rule it (which isn't hard).
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Commerce raiding requires a particular kettle of fish.
Traditionally, you'd need to reward the crew to ensure they're motivated in operating far beyond their bases in enemy waters, which is where privateering came in, making it a commercial venture.
So privateers tend to go after soft targets.
You really want highly motivated personnel to crew commerce raiders, so that they are quite prepared to take on warships if cornered, rather than meekly surrender.
Traditionally, you'd need to reward the crew to ensure they're motivated in operating far beyond their bases in enemy waters, which is where privateering came in, making it a commercial venture.
So privateers tend to go after soft targets.
You really want highly motivated personnel to crew commerce raiders, so that they are quite prepared to take on warships if cornered, rather than meekly surrender.
The goal of commerce raiders however is not to knock out or damage warships, it is to draw them away from the front lines to chase threats behind the lines. If the commerce raider is cornered by a superior opponent, it doesn't matter whether it fights to the death or surrenders, in both cases it will no longer be a threat to chase. The mission is finished.
Maybe require a few salvo's, to maintain the Navy's and the crew's honour, then surrender. But damage to a warship from a merchant commerce raider is not likely, the computer size difference is too great.
Maybe require a few salvo's, to maintain the Navy's and the crew's honour, then surrender. But damage to a warship from a merchant commerce raider is not likely, the computer size difference is too great.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The Royal Navy quite took to commerce raiding, since the Admiralty rewarded crews in accordance to what they captured and/or destroyed, so while they were keener on capturing treasure ships, there was still a substantial compensation for taking out warships.
The German mariners in the previous century knew their risks were far greater and rewards non commercial.
The German mariners in the previous century knew their risks were far greater and rewards non commercial.
Not in order ...
I view privateering and commerce raiding as separate functions. When I think of commerce raiding, I think of Bismarck and Prinze Eugen assigned (unsuccessfully) to interdict merchant traffic, or merchantmen-cum-auxiliary-cruisers Atlantis and Kormoran, assigned to sink merchantmen rather than recover booty. A Hercules clone with a military-grade computer, hopped up drives and concealed F-9 missile bays would be a rude surprise in the traffic lanes above any world.
Good point. Regina, for example, is shown to have a couple of farming worlds and a research lab on worlds orbiting the same giant as Regina, and a military base on a world orbiting the companion star. A raid on one of those would achieve little of military value but would alarm the heck out of the population, and the raid would be over and done before a force from Regina or the gas giant could reach the world to relieve it. Per the Traveller News Service announcement of 186-1107, Regina has 10 "heavy system defense boats", which won't cover that territory against a raider unless those things are battlerider-sized spinal-mount warcraft. The system has an estimated GWP of MCr6.5 million. That's, what, about MCr20-25,000 annually to build and support a defense force with? It could probably field that kind of force if it wanted, but traditionally we tend to think of SDBs as a good bit smaller.
Except that I've pointed out a couple of high-traffic worlds that would have little or nothing in the way of SDB defenses, assuming you stick with the idea of SDBs being supported by the planetary government, and there are other such worlds. As to patrol cruisers, they're just another target for a proper wartime commerce raider, at least as I've described commerce raiders above. The Imperium can either station its own forces to defend those high-traffic systems incapable of significant defense, or it can convoy the traffic through those systems. Or, we could rethink how the Imperium handles the defense of its significant trade routes. Perhaps a number of SDBs and a basic planetary defense force should be a required part of A/B/C starports.
I view privateering and commerce raiding as separate functions. When I think of commerce raiding, I think of Bismarck and Prinze Eugen assigned (unsuccessfully) to interdict merchant traffic, or merchantmen-cum-auxiliary-cruisers Atlantis and Kormoran, assigned to sink merchantmen rather than recover booty. A Hercules clone with a military-grade computer, hopped up drives and concealed F-9 missile bays would be a rude surprise in the traffic lanes above any world.
Good point. Regina, for example, is shown to have a couple of farming worlds and a research lab on worlds orbiting the same giant as Regina, and a military base on a world orbiting the companion star. A raid on one of those would achieve little of military value but would alarm the heck out of the population, and the raid would be over and done before a force from Regina or the gas giant could reach the world to relieve it. Per the Traveller News Service announcement of 186-1107, Regina has 10 "heavy system defense boats", which won't cover that territory against a raider unless those things are battlerider-sized spinal-mount warcraft. The system has an estimated GWP of MCr6.5 million. That's, what, about MCr20-25,000 annually to build and support a defense force with? It could probably field that kind of force if it wanted, but traditionally we tend to think of SDBs as a good bit smaller.
Except that I've pointed out a couple of high-traffic worlds that would have little or nothing in the way of SDB defenses, assuming you stick with the idea of SDBs being supported by the planetary government, and there are other such worlds. As to patrol cruisers, they're just another target for a proper wartime commerce raider, at least as I've described commerce raiders above. The Imperium can either station its own forces to defend those high-traffic systems incapable of significant defense, or it can convoy the traffic through those systems. Or, we could rethink how the Imperium handles the defense of its significant trade routes. Perhaps a number of SDBs and a basic planetary defense force should be a required part of A/B/C starports.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Any assessment of 'pirate potential' in terms of figuring out whether escorting is a thing is going to require a matrix of sensor ability vs. 'business model'.
The three business models ranked in order of difficulty would be
1. Boarding and taking the ship/cargo/ransom passengers
2. Cargo only, boarding or not
3. Destroy the ship
The difficulty comes in what degree the pirate/raider must match vee/position with the target ship. That's a function of relative accels and sensors.
So the sooner the P/R knows what course/vee the target ship has, the better he can be in position. Of course that means so will any defender in radio range.
A key advantage would be pirates/raiders getting intel on outbound ships- cargo, G-rating, destination, course.
Commerce raiders would typically have the #3 business model, but might look to do #2 for supplies and #1 for building/replacing ersatz fleets without maintenance bases.
Defenders would look to business model #3, but LE/boarding/inspection would require #1, presumably lack of cooperation would go to #3.
The thing that catches my eye is how the sensor vs. maneuver game allows for piracy.
CT had 150,000km for civilian and 600,000lm for mil/scout ships, MgT1E apparently has even less range, 50,000km+ for detecting just a blip (although a matching course should be a dead giveaway). MgT HG may have greater ranges, so educate me, I don't have that book.
The really interesting part is CT ships maintaining silence as it is expressed in the rules, which I always took to mean entirely powered down.
The ranges drop down to 75,000 and 300,000km respectively in open space, and 1/8 in orbit, which is 18,750/75,000 km. Orbit doggo would be tough to do in any high traffic/station/sensor satellite environment but doable at lower tech/starports. But the open space ones might offer opportunity for drifting into lanes and only firing up when a target comes along.
There is also the window of time opportunity to get a ship and get out before LE/navies come along. That is where rules regarding whether one has to be at vee to the jump target or at 0 vee for jump looms large in pirate potential.
Just using CT again for maneuver examples, you really want to get the business done before ship-killing defenders get below that -5 500,000km DM. That means a narrow band to allow for matching vee and getting onboard, and jumping out-system near the 100D line (because most target ships just won't have the vee to escape pursuit in realspace).
SO given those time constraints, the more your business model is #2 or #1, the more likely your boarding/cargo scooping ships are high-G small boats and you have an escape mothership for the boats to make for, probably the corsair.
So most of the time the threat to Beowulf should more a couple of fighters and a shuttle, with a corsair maintaining silence until the boats arrive and it's time to jump.
Now just destroying should be pretty easy with a really short detection range, and that is where our friends the escort destroyers/SDBs come in. A lot of pirates and raiders are likely to remain silent if they know equal or superior firepower is within range.
More efficient for deterrent value if they convoy in or out of gravity wells. DEs would jump with the ships in convoy, particularly for routes through less patrolled systems, SDBs would stay 'at the coast'. Fighters would be more in the mix too assuming a more small boat pirate/raider universe.
The three business models ranked in order of difficulty would be
1. Boarding and taking the ship/cargo/ransom passengers
2. Cargo only, boarding or not
3. Destroy the ship
The difficulty comes in what degree the pirate/raider must match vee/position with the target ship. That's a function of relative accels and sensors.
So the sooner the P/R knows what course/vee the target ship has, the better he can be in position. Of course that means so will any defender in radio range.
A key advantage would be pirates/raiders getting intel on outbound ships- cargo, G-rating, destination, course.
Commerce raiders would typically have the #3 business model, but might look to do #2 for supplies and #1 for building/replacing ersatz fleets without maintenance bases.
Defenders would look to business model #3, but LE/boarding/inspection would require #1, presumably lack of cooperation would go to #3.
The thing that catches my eye is how the sensor vs. maneuver game allows for piracy.
CT had 150,000km for civilian and 600,000lm for mil/scout ships, MgT1E apparently has even less range, 50,000km+ for detecting just a blip (although a matching course should be a dead giveaway). MgT HG may have greater ranges, so educate me, I don't have that book.
The really interesting part is CT ships maintaining silence as it is expressed in the rules, which I always took to mean entirely powered down.
The ranges drop down to 75,000 and 300,000km respectively in open space, and 1/8 in orbit, which is 18,750/75,000 km. Orbit doggo would be tough to do in any high traffic/station/sensor satellite environment but doable at lower tech/starports. But the open space ones might offer opportunity for drifting into lanes and only firing up when a target comes along.
There is also the window of time opportunity to get a ship and get out before LE/navies come along. That is where rules regarding whether one has to be at vee to the jump target or at 0 vee for jump looms large in pirate potential.
Just using CT again for maneuver examples, you really want to get the business done before ship-killing defenders get below that -5 500,000km DM. That means a narrow band to allow for matching vee and getting onboard, and jumping out-system near the 100D line (because most target ships just won't have the vee to escape pursuit in realspace).
SO given those time constraints, the more your business model is #2 or #1, the more likely your boarding/cargo scooping ships are high-G small boats and you have an escape mothership for the boats to make for, probably the corsair.
So most of the time the threat to Beowulf should more a couple of fighters and a shuttle, with a corsair maintaining silence until the boats arrive and it's time to jump.
Now just destroying should be pretty easy with a really short detection range, and that is where our friends the escort destroyers/SDBs come in. A lot of pirates and raiders are likely to remain silent if they know equal or superior firepower is within range.
More efficient for deterrent value if they convoy in or out of gravity wells. DEs would jump with the ships in convoy, particularly for routes through less patrolled systems, SDBs would stay 'at the coast'. Fighters would be more in the mix too assuming a more small boat pirate/raider universe.
You missed one;
4. Stay alive, be an obvious threat.
A quote from Wikipedia on "Fleet in Being"
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Fleet in being tends to pin an entire task force to block it, preventing their reassignment to other missions or theatres.
It's a double edged sword, since the British tended to have enough ships that they could afford to pen up each French squadron in their home ports, causing them to rot away at their moorings while the Royal Navy maintained their operational edge.
With the Hochseeflotte, it's obvious that the Royal Navy won that as well, with some tactical setbacks that bad optics distorted, due to the Admiralty not getting in front of the story.
At best, it's a cost benefit analysis, much in the sense if it would have made more sense to manufacture more tanks and/or submarines from the steel used to build the Bismarck, or the actual strategic value of a first rate battle fleet for a continental power, that Wilhelm should have more carefully considered, where Germany faced possible rivals in three directions on her land borders.
It's a double edged sword, since the British tended to have enough ships that they could afford to pen up each French squadron in their home ports, causing them to rot away at their moorings while the Royal Navy maintained their operational edge.
With the Hochseeflotte, it's obvious that the Royal Navy won that as well, with some tactical setbacks that bad optics distorted, due to the Admiralty not getting in front of the story.
At best, it's a cost benefit analysis, much in the sense if it would have made more sense to manufacture more tanks and/or submarines from the steel used to build the Bismarck, or the actual strategic value of a first rate battle fleet for a continental power, that Wilhelm should have more carefully considered, where Germany faced possible rivals in three directions on her land borders.
Absolutely, with the cost of chasing or protecting a system from a 400tn converted merchant raider, being quite high. Multiple 1000tn Destroyer Escorts working together to pin it down (covering likely jump destinations) or some other (cheaper) option.
Rather than defeat say 4 x 1000 tn Destroyer Escorts in main fleet battle, it is much easier to send them on a wild goose chase at a fraction of the cost (drafted merchants don't come out of the navies ship procurement budget).
Or you look at cheaper ways to combat such cheap, strategically disrupting tactics.
400tn? Are we assuming a small ship universe, or are we talking about pirates and privateers? Per Azhanti High Lightning, a task force consisting of 2 Kinunirs, 4 Gazelles and an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser, Haunting Thunder, were sent "commerce raiding" into Zhodani space during the Fourth Frontier War. CT Supplement 9 describes cruisers as "form[ing] the cadre of commerce raiding task forces" while escorts, "small ships of up to 5000 tons," are "widely used for convoy protection and commerce raiding roles." Traveller Adventure features merchantmen up to 5000 dT; a hostile government wanting to convert a merchant to raiding might prefer to use those larger, more powerful ships in the Q-ship role.
Ships in the 400 dT range might be preferred for piracy or privateering, taking down free traders and poorly armed subsidized merchants on minor routes that lack adequate defenses. Governments in wartime are going to be using much bigger ships.
