Rev Round, I will apologize to you because I did miss the fact that you were talking about the Mongoose boards and not here.
Allen
Does Mongoose Traveller leave you cold?
- Thread starter gcbright
- Start date
Rev Round, I will apologize to you because I did miss the fact that you were talking about the Mongoose boards and not here.
Allen
Um....
It leaves me cold because of the poor production standards. The new SM book might be useful, though.
I've spent the past five years trying to understand what CT really was at the core... and sifting through the various changes introduced by the later editions. Amusingly enough, some things from the later editions that I hated were copied verbatim from CT. At any rate, one more voice weighing on on how CT should be done "right" is too much for me right now. (GT, T20, Hero, blech!) I am glad they are attempting to make a "Traveller" instead of adapting it to another system, though... black books and all.
Things that could change my mind:
1) If going Mongoose got me a steady gaming group, I'd jump regardless of the problems. I don't think the wife/kids can tolerate that, though.
2) A thoughtful second edition revision without the crap production standards would make me reconsider.
3) Evidence that people are doing things with Traveller that were difficult/broken in other editions would get my attention. Another abstract flame war over piracy/c-rocks/virus/fighters or whatever means nothing to me. Describe the game sessions in detail and I'll listen, though.
If it's a choice between two mediocre systems, nostalgia takes precedence unless there is a large rabid fanbase available for play at all hours. The only way to break that deadlock is by extreme excellence on all facets. For example, Ken Burnside at Ad Astra has Squadron Strike coming out which can be adapted for Traveller ship combat. This game has my attention because it's the *3rd* iteration of his 3D rules, his company has a rep for good production values, and it accomplishes something that's clunky in most all of the Traveller editions.
Sincerely,
A wannabe canonista
It leaves me cold because of the poor production standards. The new SM book might be useful, though.
I've spent the past five years trying to understand what CT really was at the core... and sifting through the various changes introduced by the later editions. Amusingly enough, some things from the later editions that I hated were copied verbatim from CT. At any rate, one more voice weighing on on how CT should be done "right" is too much for me right now. (GT, T20, Hero, blech!) I am glad they are attempting to make a "Traveller" instead of adapting it to another system, though... black books and all.
Things that could change my mind:
1) If going Mongoose got me a steady gaming group, I'd jump regardless of the problems. I don't think the wife/kids can tolerate that, though.
2) A thoughtful second edition revision without the crap production standards would make me reconsider.
3) Evidence that people are doing things with Traveller that were difficult/broken in other editions would get my attention. Another abstract flame war over piracy/c-rocks/virus/fighters or whatever means nothing to me. Describe the game sessions in detail and I'll listen, though.
If it's a choice between two mediocre systems, nostalgia takes precedence unless there is a large rabid fanbase available for play at all hours. The only way to break that deadlock is by extreme excellence on all facets. For example, Ken Burnside at Ad Astra has Squadron Strike coming out which can be adapted for Traveller ship combat. This game has my attention because it's the *3rd* iteration of his 3D rules, his company has a rep for good production values, and it accomplishes something that's clunky in most all of the Traveller editions.
Sincerely,
A wannabe canonista
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
<Emphasis mine>
A clarification, please. Are you banning bashing MGT fans only? Or does this extend to criticisms of the game itself?
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
"tantrumed out of existence"...I like that.
<shrug>
We can never divine intent with any degree of certainty (until we develop psionics). However, as an adult, I generally assume that someone intends the consequence of their actions, if those consequences are reasonably obvious and fairly certain to follow.
But at the end of the day, intent doesn't really matter much (IMHO). What matters is the effect. And if the effect is to squelch legitimate criticisms of a game, then I submit it's a Bad Thing, regardless of intent.
Yeah, I should have noted that in theory, it cuts both ways. That assumes that enforcement is consistent, however. *If* a moderator banned obnoxious critics, but only locked threads that had obnoxious fanboys, then the moderator would be effectively silencing critics. (Not saying this happened in the case of the MGT forum; just noting a weakness in the argument). And this would be the effect, regardless of intent.
IMHO, a forum's administrators should be exceedingly reluctant to ban reasonable criticism. I have no problem with censuring personal attacks, but even there, they should be scrupulously even handed.
Because here's the dirty little secret -- every game is flawed. And in my nearly 30 years of gaming experience, criticism, not praise, results in improvements to the game. Folks who squelch criticism of their game (whether intentionally or unintentionally) are doing themselves and their players a disservice IMHO.
We agree on this.
And we all could do with a reminder that someone who disagrees with you (or your policies) is not necessarily making a personal attack.
I agree that threadcrapping -- whatever that means
-- can be a problem. However, I see a key difference between threadcrapping and thread locking. Thread crapping is done by certain members of the community and can be policed by the community (or moderators).Thread locking is an arbitrary step taken by the moderators -- often only one moderator, depending on the forum. And there's no effective way to appeal this decision, in most cases.
Another difference -- threadcrapping can hurt a thread, but it really can't kill it unless everyone in the thread agrees to let it do so. Thread locking kills the thread (and this is occasionally literally true, as the thread can even be deleted).
Most things involving grownups lack simple solutions. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. At the very least, we should be able to discuss the ramifications of forum policies...
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Constructive criticism is always welcome. Gratuitous complaints and ad hom attacks aren't. This applies to all systems and their fans.
Please, end this argument now.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
In the heat of battle, I think you've missed an important point--I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to a weakness that I think exists in the MGT forums.
No problem; I've lost situational awareness from time to time as well. Just wanted you know that my comment was not aimed at you.
No problem with that.
I don't really consider the term "fanboy" to be terribly derogatory, but I can now see how it could be insulting. In my own personal defense, I don't think I've ever called anyone a fanboy (except perhaps in retaliation for an insult). In any case, I'll move it to the "inflammatory words" part of my lexicon.
I agree, to the extent that the terms are inaccurate.
And I'd agree that trying to end an argument by whining that someone is purportedly a "fanboy" is chickensh*t. (Assuming I was making an argument based on facts and logic, my response would be "assume that I am a fanboy; now rebut my arguments..."
I submit, though, that some folks effectively make the same kind of chickensh*t attacks when they accuse MGT critics of irrationally hating MGT. (And the response, IMHO, is the same: "assume that I irrationally hate MGT; now rebut my arguments...") Not saying you personally did this (I really can't remember who all has done it). Just noting that there's plenty of dubious behavior to go around.
I haven't seen what you describe on the MgT forum...which is not to say it isn't there, I guess I just haven't run into it much.
As for whether certain persons irrationally hate Mongoose Traveller..I can't say. I am not a psychiatrist, in real life or on TV. I think some of the stuff that has gone on here is quite deliberate and "rational"...
Right now I have a minor headache from trying to rebuild an old TNE design of a friend of mine using the recently accquired MgT High Guard.
Allen
As for whether certain persons irrationally hate Mongoose Traveller..I can't say. I am not a psychiatrist, in real life or on TV. I think some of the stuff that has gone on here is quite deliberate and "rational"...
Right now I have a minor headache from trying to rebuild an old TNE design of a friend of mine using the recently accquired MgT High Guard.
Allen
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Yup. That'll teach me to post at the end of a very bad day... Sorry about that.
Fair enough. I felt that your posts implied this, but I'll take your word that no such implication was intended.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
<golf clap>
Well said, sir.
The question I am asking myself is this. If you dont play MgT and have no intention of playing MgT why would you spend your time hanging about in a board section devoted to MgT bashing the game and preaching about how superior CT is? I despise TnE. you dont see me bashing TnE in the TnE section though. I loved my time with CT but fact is the game needed to be cleaned up and updated and like it or not that is what MgT did. If you have problems with parts of the game then by all means offer some solutions and maybe show us the community how you house rule through your issues. That would be cool. Dropping into every thread to complain and carry on about how horrible MgT is is not helping any of us.
Basically help make MgT the best it can be, accept that CT is dead, and move on.
Basically help make MgT the best it can be, accept that CT is dead, and move on.
Every serious canonista can compare and contrast the various editions and pick the good parts our of each one. Of course, it's unlikely that any new system can add much to their already extensive house rules. The analysis/sifting of TNE is done. Not much there to hash out anymore except for the latecomers. MGT criticism is just getting warmed up, though.
It's all part of the process; nothing personal.
Nevermind that complaining about Traveller has been half the fun for the hard core grogs-- this goes back to both Strephon's murder and the release of virus. To try to pitch something new to veterans of that crowd while expecting not to generate any heat is a little bit unrealistic!
Also note that, as far as I know, these boards are the refuge of the last remaining ultra-fanatical CT/MT grogs. The traffic here has all but stopped ever since the release of MGT. The uneasy truce with GT and T20 has passed, T5 is late, and the Avenger license is being revoked. Please permit these guys to be a little less than thrilled with the upsetting of their applecart... for... something that doesn't even have the grace to follow through with decent proof-reading (yet).
It's all part of the process; nothing personal.
Nevermind that complaining about Traveller has been half the fun for the hard core grogs-- this goes back to both Strephon's murder and the release of virus. To try to pitch something new to veterans of that crowd while expecting not to generate any heat is a little bit unrealistic!
Also note that, as far as I know, these boards are the refuge of the last remaining ultra-fanatical CT/MT grogs. The traffic here has all but stopped ever since the release of MGT. The uneasy truce with GT and T20 has passed, T5 is late, and the Avenger license is being revoked. Please permit these guys to be a little less than thrilled with the upsetting of their applecart... for... something that doesn't even have the grace to follow through with decent proof-reading (yet).
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I can absolutely guarantee that if I or ANYONE turned the tables and spent all my time in the CT section ragging on that game and extoling the virtues of MgT, there would be some major anger about that. so wy do WE have to put up with this?
Allen
First, I don't think saying "CT is dead" is all that helpful. CT is a good game and is in fact that basis of everything Traveller. I understand your point, but the statement is somewhat provacative.
Secondly, among at least a couple of the grognards who keep invading this section, there is no interest in "helping make Mgt better". They hate the game and really only want to express that anger. That much is painfully obvious; why start a "does Mongoose Traveller leave you cold" thread otherwise? I never saw anything like this in the T20 section of this board, quite frankly.
Hunter himself said the solution to this for people who don't like MgT is not to come here. That won't happen for a variety of reasons, but that would be the best solution.
Allen
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I believe that you have posed a false dilemma--it is not necessary to either love MGT or hate it. One can validly like parts of it and dislike other parts, and I do not see what's so bad about noting this. IOW, "MGT, love it or leave it" isn't a terribly persuasive argument to me.
In addition, MGT is the "new kid on the block", and I think that it's reasonable to inquire whether it's a worthy successor to previous versions of Traveller. Especially if you've paid the money to buy the game. (Yes, I believe that purchasing the game does give you the right to critique the game).
Making valid criticisms of the game, and exposing real flaws and problems seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable way to "make MGT the best it can be". And candidly, making valid criticisms seems to me to be far more likely to improve the game than uncritically praising every aspect of the game. (Not necessarily accusing you of this; just noting that worse cosequences could come from uncritical praise).
Since there's little evidence to support the assertion that "CT is dead", I won't waste time on that point except to note that you've assumed a fact not in evidence.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I think that you have to "put up" with it because this forum is *about* MGT. Not about "praising MGT". Therefore, criticisms of MGT *are* relevant here.
(As an aside, I can't agree that you have to "put up" with anything. You can choose to agree, disagree or ignore a poster. Your choice; nothing is forced on you.)
Now, I would agree that at some point, reference to CT is probably off-topic here. But it would have to be pretty egregious IMHO. Two factors strongly argue for allowing comparisons with CT in this forum:
1. It's a time-honored (and I think desirable) tradition among gamers to compare and contrast game systems. Those defending a game often draw such comparisons by making replies like this -- "well, anyone can tear a system down; how would *you* fix these problems". To which the reply is often "well, <other game> does it like this..."
2. Far more importantly, MGT has invited comparisons with CT. As we lawyers would say, they have raised the issue. They have done so in numerous ways:
a. According to the MGT ad copy, it is "<b>ased on the 'Classic Traveller' rules set, streamlined and updated for the 21st Century..." This clearly invites comparison with CT, in my opinion.
b. By using the name "Traveller", MGT implicitely invites comparison with previous games named "Traveller".
c. By using similar mechanics, character generation systems, etc., as CT, MGT invites comparison with CT.
d. By using the CT setting and even going so far as to use the same names as CT supplements ("High Guard", "Mercenary", etc.), and even the "look and feel" of CT products MGT invites comparison with CT.
All that said, I'd note that my criticisms of MGT are not generally framed as negative comparisons with CT. My problems with MGT stand on their own; CT is irrelevant. I have, from time to time, offered examples of CT products that I thought handled things better than MGT. But as I said, I judge MGT on its own merits. So perhaps you might want to consider that not every critic of MGT is a CT fanboy (my words, not yours).
And frankly, if you think that MGT is better than CT at something (and can defend such an arguments), I wouldn't caterwaul about you posting such in the CT forum.
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I don't think every critic of MgT is a CT fanboy. I don't think you are, for example. I do think there is an element of that on the part of certain people.
I like CT. I use CT materials in my game. I bring copies of TTB and the Starter Traveller set with me to games. I personally have no issue with CT per se (or, the issues I do have are minor). I choose NOT to go talking about MgT on the CT part of the forum because I figure that is the place for extoling the virtues of that system, not ragging on it. I certainly would not go into. say a thread devoted to character creation in CT and begin slagging on that game and saying how great MgT is...and that is the kind of thing that has happened on this section a couple of times.
We've had the comparison thread. This was not a comparison thread. This was, pure and simple, a "Mongoose Traveller sux" thread in the Mongoose Traveller section. THAT is what I object to. As Hunter himself pointed out, this thread could only have been started with the intent of starting something. Its very annoying.
Allen
Good points. Allow me to retort.
Does Marsellus Wallace look like a *&&*&?
Ha! seriously though, I respond.
No false dilemma that. If a persons only reason for posting here is to complain and gripe about MgT then why are they here? You generally are critical but I feel fair in most of your assessments and I can respect that. But there are others who post here seemingly to do nothing but tear down MgT.
Compared to tnE and T4 I would say MgT is more than worthy especially since it is of the three closest to my first traveller love, CT. Again some of the posts we are seeing here are out right attacks on mongoose and MgT. That is not cool at all. It does not make me want to play what ever version or cobbled together game of traveller these people are playing and it further divides our already fractured community. I personally can not understand why people who like CT wouldn't love MgT. they are very similar in feel to me and I think MgT fixed a number of issues that CT had. thats just my .02cr though. Sure MgT has some editing problems and the artwork is not what it could be, I am with you guys on that but I think some of the critic is unfair.. I mean, have you guys ever actually read the LBBs and most of the old Ct material? It is full of editing issues and the art is, for the most part, sub-par.
I wholeheartedly agree with you here. I just think that there is a difference between stating that "such and such has a problem and this is what I think will fix it
" and "MgT sucks I hate it RAWWWR!!" Seems like we are seeing more rants and hate than we are constructive criticism.
A couple of reprints over the last two decades and rather spotty support at best are not enough to claim a game is alive any more than OD&D is still alive or Star frontiers is still alive. These systems for better or worse are dead. CT is a dead system except that MgT is the most worthy heir and looks more like the grand daddy than any of the other editions.
Does Marsellus Wallace look like a *&&*&?
Ha! seriously though, I respond.
No false dilemma that. If a persons only reason for posting here is to complain and gripe about MgT then why are they here? You generally are critical but I feel fair in most of your assessments and I can respect that. But there are others who post here seemingly to do nothing but tear down MgT.
Compared to tnE and T4 I would say MgT is more than worthy especially since it is of the three closest to my first traveller love, CT. Again some of the posts we are seeing here are out right attacks on mongoose and MgT. That is not cool at all. It does not make me want to play what ever version or cobbled together game of traveller these people are playing and it further divides our already fractured community. I personally can not understand why people who like CT wouldn't love MgT. they are very similar in feel to me and I think MgT fixed a number of issues that CT had. thats just my .02cr though. Sure MgT has some editing problems and the artwork is not what it could be, I am with you guys on that but I think some of the critic is unfair.. I mean, have you guys ever actually read the LBBs and most of the old Ct material? It is full of editing issues and the art is, for the most part, sub-par.
I wholeheartedly agree with you here. I just think that there is a difference between stating that "such and such has a problem and this is what I think will fix it
" and "MgT sucks I hate it RAWWWR!!" Seems like we are seeing more rants and hate than we are constructive criticism.
A couple of reprints over the last two decades and rather spotty support at best are not enough to claim a game is alive any more than OD&D is still alive or Star frontiers is still alive. These systems for better or worse are dead. CT is a dead system except that MgT is the most worthy heir and looks more like the grand daddy than any of the other editions.
I would like to just add this...
I FINISHED THE SHIP I WAS WORKING ON!!
which means I actually built a 50,000 ton Solomani cruiser with the new High Guard and it came out RIGHT (the second time) without a spreadsheet.
Therefore I am now pleased and sanguine.
This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
Allen
I FINISHED THE SHIP I WAS WORKING ON!!
which means I actually built a 50,000 ton Solomani cruiser with the new High Guard and it came out RIGHT (the second time) without a spreadsheet.
Therefore I am now pleased and sanguine.
This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
Allen
Dude...
If they are trolls, don't feed them.
If they have valid critcism, suck it up and deal with it.
If you are having more fun than them because you actually have time/friends/etc to play, then tell us about it so we can all get jealous.
BUT... there's something about the chip up there on your shoulder that you're not entitled to. In some kind of twisted zen way, you're bringing some of this negativity on yourself. Granted, there's been some uncalled for snarkiness from the grogs occasionally, but you need to learn how to deal with it. Outrage on your part is not going to win anyone over and gives the rabid CT crowd one more reason to stay away from MGT.
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