Does Terra of IY 1106 really know anything about 1969AD?
- Thread starter Shonner
- Start date
I think it really depends on if there are any global catastrophes or World wars between the 21st century and the Current traveller date. The difference between now and the First century is that we are getting better at archiving stuff. Also tons of stuff are being archived on our networks. I think there would be some loss, but not as much as you might think. There is a real push to digitize everything that can be digitized and put on the internet. I guess some stuff could get bit rot or be hit by creative editing. That would depend on how many repressive world governments that the Solomani have had in the last few thousand years.
The information is available "archaeologically" if it was ever recorded in any format with multiple copies. Deliberate information preservation projects will add considerably to that. However, there's so much to know that what most people know off-hand is quite limited. What experts can find out with extensive research is very extensive, but the sheer mass of information makes it possible to miss details.
Hans
Hans
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
"Umm, they can probably do some research and get back to you."
D'you mean back when...
... The Internet ended the Dark Ages brought about the Rennaissance?
... When they finished digging the Grand Canyon?
... When Lee Harvey Armstrong fired the shot heard 'round the moon?
... The Kennedy twins took over the Sovereign State of New Bazwashistahn?
... Terra's first Psionic Awakening was crushed under the jack-boots of Major Daley's troops?
That 1969AD?
D'you mean back when...
... The Internet ended the Dark Ages brought about the Rennaissance?
... When they finished digging the Grand Canyon?
... When Lee Harvey Armstrong fired the shot heard 'round the moon?
... The Kennedy twins took over the Sovereign State of New Bazwashistahn?
... Terra's first Psionic Awakening was crushed under the jack-boots of Major Daley's troops?
That 1969AD?
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
Approximately 3000 years ago (plus or minus a few decades)...
1045 BCE: Zhou Dynasty is founded in China.
1045 BCE: (Approximate Year) Austronesian peoples have migrated from Philippines to Celebes, the Moluccas, northern Borneo and eastern Java.
1015 BCE: (Approximate Year) King David's rule over Israel ends with his death
1015 BCE: (Approximate Year) King Solomon's rule over Israel begins
1000 BCE: (Approximate Year) Mule breeders noticed that a mare crossed with a donkey yields a mule, whereas a stallion crossed with a donkey produces a hinny, which has shorter ears, a thicker mane and tail, and stronger legs than the mule.
975 BCE: (Approximate Year) The Kingdom of Israel divides into a smaller Kingdom of Israel and a separate Kingdom of Judah.
... all of which raises the question, "Would people 3000 years from now even care about early 21st-century events?
1045 BCE: Zhou Dynasty is founded in China.
1045 BCE: (Approximate Year) Austronesian peoples have migrated from Philippines to Celebes, the Moluccas, northern Borneo and eastern Java.
1015 BCE: (Approximate Year) King David's rule over Israel ends with his death
1015 BCE: (Approximate Year) King Solomon's rule over Israel begins
1000 BCE: (Approximate Year) Mule breeders noticed that a mare crossed with a donkey yields a mule, whereas a stallion crossed with a donkey produces a hinny, which has shorter ears, a thicker mane and tail, and stronger legs than the mule.
975 BCE: (Approximate Year) The Kingdom of Israel divides into a smaller Kingdom of Israel and a separate Kingdom of Judah.
... all of which raises the question, "Would people 3000 years from now even care about early 21st-century events?
Historians, Anthropologists of most stripes and those with high education will, as will anyone who follows the adage: "Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."
Meaning, politicians, idiots and most of the general masses will prolly not give a flying f what happened 3000 or so years ago on one of the over 11 000 various worlds in the 3I unless it somehow has a direct effect on their daily lives.
I don't see that as the question. The question, to me, is "If people care, can they find out?" In other words, has the information survived?
The answer I gave above.
Hans
I would think that there would be some kind of monument on the Moon for the first Lunar landing and that other histiorical data for the 20th century would be easily available. If you look at the Smithsonian and the Library of Congress , the amount of stored artifacts and information is staggering. There might be some artifacts and art lost due to war or natural catastrophe but the bulk of the information would survive. Due to it being dispersed in so many forms and places
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
The problem with this argument is that nothing of particular importance to people today happened in 1000BC (except maybe the mule). That date was no different from 1500BC or 500BC, but people are more likely to remember events that changed history. I think future generations are more likely to remember the fall of the Roman Empire, the Renaissance, the industrial revolution and the birth of spaceflight.
The only thing that worries me is that although we have lots of information today, all those eggs are stored in the electronic basket. If our civilisation falls (as so many previous ones have done) will the guy who digs up the laptop in 5112 and wonders 'what can this strange device be?' be able to read the data? Will the data media last that long? (I get glitches on discs I burned 5 years ago). Stone tablets and papyrus are pretty long-lived when it comes down to it - how much would we know about history if our ancestors had written everything in chalk on slate, cos it's so much cheaper than carving it into stone?
Not so. It is stored in umpteen thousand electronic baskets.
And such discs can no longer be read by the ordinary devices available to ordinary people. But 99% of the information is still there. All it takes is someone with the requisite technology and the money to hire a cryptographer and all that information can be read again. If posterity finds two copies of the same encyclopedia CD, they can each have deteriorated a lot more and it will still be possible to reconstruct it.
Then there's the various time capsules and knowledge depositories where the long-time survivability of the information has been of major concern. One project I read about has tested glass CDs by exposing them to the same amount of radiation they'd receive naturally in 50,000 years.
And in the Traveller universe civilization didn't fall on Terra. No catastrophic decivilization during the Long Night. Tech level never fell below 9 (IMO it never fell below 12, but that's debated).
Hans
Peter Schutze
SOC-12
there are also a lot of projects these days looking at accessible archives .... the one that sticks in my mind is imprinted crystals that project data when hit with light .... anything more polarised than a candle gives a clear multipage dataset
that suggests the possibility for very slanted (limited but detailed) knowledge etc
that suggests the possibility for very slanted (limited but detailed) knowledge etc
Again with research, they could find out, but things like the missing 11mins would have long been lost. I always took the Solomani to be great preservationists. Hence, a Dome around major archeological sites both on Terra and abroad. One of the Traveller Digests and maybe Marc's article on Luna stated as much confirmed by a cover on one of the Traveller Chronicles. However, preserving is also part of multimillion Credit/Mark Heritage Industry - so precious little history is really conveyed.
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
Same, Hans.
But I think that either (1) the dates will be certain, but the facts distorted; or (2) the facts will be certain, but the dates will be approximate.
"What" or "When" with a large degree of certainty, but not both.
But I think that either (1) the dates will be certain, but the facts distorted; or (2) the facts will be certain, but the dates will be approximate.
"What" or "When" with a large degree of certainty, but not both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudohistory
even if some of the data survives, how many different interpretations and revisions would confuse truth with myth? Throw in scads of propaganda and things really get messy. And, "history is written by the winners"........
changes in languages and spellings muddle things too.
http://www.dribbleglass.com/Jokes/history.htm
sure hope 3rd Imperium historians don't find these 'historical' writings....
Its not just if writings, etc. survive over time but how accurate they are when written. Propaganda and various agendas can screw that up, all by themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudohistory
even if some of the data survives, how many different interpretations and revisions would confuse truth with myth? Throw in scads of propaganda and things really get messy. And, "history is written by the winners"........
changes in languages and spellings muddle things too.
http://www.dribbleglass.com/Jokes/history.htm
sure hope 3rd Imperium historians don't find these 'historical' writings....
Its not just if writings, etc. survive over time but how accurate they are when written. Propaganda and various agendas can screw that up, all by themselves.
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The issue of revisionism is fun for those of us with degrees in history. EVERY new history written is technically revisionism.
Which is part of the reason for the emphasis on primary sources (memoirs by those involved, and reports and prep documents for the event studied) and certain types of secondary sources (namely, those written very close to the events by interviewing those who were part of the events in question.)
Which is part of the reason for the emphasis on primary sources (memoirs by those involved, and reports and prep documents for the event studied) and certain types of secondary sources (namely, those written very close to the events by interviewing those who were part of the events in question.)
Eye-witness memory is another fun thing. They forget things that happened and remember things that didn't happen.
Hans
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
So we have...
... loss of data; no data exists for a certain event, person, place or time period, and we don't even know that it is missing
... data remains, but the context and meaning are unknown (no "Rosetta Stone" is available)
... data remains, but the context or meaning has changed (try reading a text written in "English" of a thousand years ago)
... an abundance of data, but no there is no "checksum" against malicious revisionism
... an abundance of data, but many of its parts are in conflict with other parts
... an abundance of data, but most of it focuses only on a single event, person, place, or time period
... an abundance of data, but of significance only to special interests
... an abundance of data, but it is unrecognizable as data
... an abundance of data, but it is inaccessible
That last one I call "Can-Opener in a Can" - the data are there, but the means to access the data is locked up inside the data itself - you can only access the data if you have the means to do so, and you can only determine the means if you access the data.
... loss of data; no data exists for a certain event, person, place or time period, and we don't even know that it is missing
... data remains, but the context and meaning are unknown (no "Rosetta Stone" is available)
... data remains, but the context or meaning has changed (try reading a text written in "English" of a thousand years ago)
... an abundance of data, but no there is no "checksum" against malicious revisionism
... an abundance of data, but many of its parts are in conflict with other parts
... an abundance of data, but most of it focuses only on a single event, person, place, or time period
... an abundance of data, but of significance only to special interests
... an abundance of data, but it is unrecognizable as data
... an abundance of data, but it is inaccessible
That last one I call "Can-Opener in a Can" - the data are there, but the means to access the data is locked up inside the data itself - you can only access the data if you have the means to do so, and you can only determine the means if you access the data.
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