Does Terra of IY 1106 really know anything about 1969AD?

[rancke]

Maybe so, maybe no; but the fact it happened once speaks volumes. Could it happen again? Yes, infact given the time span (3500 years or so), it could have happened multiple times.

No, I don't think it could happen again. Not with information so much easier to copy, distribute, and keep. There really is a profound difference between hand-copied books and printed books and likewise between books printed on a Gutenberg press and information stored by TL 7+ means.

The burning of the Alexandrian Library combined with the Edicts against Magic show, that we know it could happen again and again (even avoiding speaking of big book burners like the Fascists and Soviets),

How many books did the big book burners of the 20th Century actually manage to destroy down to the last copy? I would be surprised to learn that it amounted to more than a handful of limited print run pamphlets.

I think you're not taking into account my argument about censorship being unable to destroy anything unless it can reach every extant copy. That would be hard enough on Earth today. Once copies of various books begin to leave Earth, it becomes abso-freaking-lutely impossible.

...so the best we could say is that they have pieced together a good functioning history of the era, how accurate is anybody's guess and entirely dependent on who you are talking with to which version you might hear, c'est la vie. Buzz Aldrin could be strung up by Vilani in a Solomani history book.

And that book would be refuted by a dozen others who took the trouble to reference any 21st Century encyclopedia.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Ah, but it depends on who you are talking to, refute what happened to Buzz Aldrin in the Solomani Confederation and you could be looking at prison time. Also the 20th century book burners not only burned books but put out reams of propaganda which never may be undone, vae victus as well. The problem with your ten disk set of Historiana Galatica is that what if disks 3,6 & 7 are lost? then you have gaping holes in your history that very well might be filled with gross inaccuracies. Don't underestimate the power of ignorance and people believing what they want to believe over what may be an ugly truth.

 

[rancke]

Ah, but it depends on who you are talking to, refute what happened to Buzz Aldrin in the Solomani Confederation and you could be looking at prison time. Also the 20th century book burners not only burned books but put out reams of propaganda which never may be undone, vae victus as well. The problem with your ten disk set of Historiana Galatica is that what if disks 3,6 & 7 are lost? then you have gaping holes in your history that very well might be filled with gross inaccuracies. Don't underestimate the power of ignorance and people believing what they want to believe over what may be an ugly truth.

Actually, with the other 7 disks, a clever historian can deduct quite a bit about events covered on disk 3,6, & 7. People who contributed to an event are mentioned in the description of the event, events that people participated in are mentioned in their biographies.

But that's by the way. My main point is that all the disks will be there. They were distributed to hundred of thousands of libraries and private collections across Earth. They were included in dozens of time capsules. They were engraved on glass disks and sent into orbit. They were included in libraries sent to outposts and colonies. They were included in libraries sent on Long Range Missions. They were stolen by Vilani spies and smuggled to Shululsish. They were bought by Vilani tourists and taken back to Capital and Vland and a dozen other worlds. They were bought by agents of the AAB and included in their database (the big one). Extracts were included in the AAB 15 crystal set. Later the originals were bought by museums and antiquarians and lovingly preserved.

And the same happened to Encyclopedia Brittannica, Encarta, The Wikipedia Transcripts, and dozens of other encyclopediae.

Finally, I'll ask you how you envisage any work being suppressed by censorship even if it was still confined to just Earth. Just what do you think would happen in the region formely known as the USA if the World Government orders the destruction of a list of books? Everyone complies? Would you? Or would you crate up your forbidden books and bury them in the forest?


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

What happens when the destruction was more recent, say just a few hundred years ago by an emperor? There was the psionic suppresion as an example. What if nobody wants to know the truth? It is easy to put history back together when nobody is emotionally attached to it, but woe to the historian who tries it where people have used some lie or distortion to build a castle made of sand on. All that is past could be called a lie by the current powers and the records distorted or destroyed ala 1984 or Homage to Catalonia.

Here is a good adventure hook: A historian sends out a party of characters to find the lost 7th disk of the Historiana Galactica published during the Rule of Man. The kicker is that on that disk is the real reason the first Interstellar war happened; say a cleaning robot accidentally fired a laser from a gunnery station and the other side being confused, fired back. Now both the Imperium and Solomani have built a massive history on the other side being wrong and neither want to see that disk reach the light of day. The historian gets assasinated by one side or another and the party facing enmity from both sides rues the day they set eyes on that disk. What is the value of history then? What if nobody is right and everybody wrong?

I'm not even touching on the idea of the "two truths" which has been very dominant.

 

[rancke]

What happens when the destruction was more recent, say just a few hundred years ago by an emperor? There was the psionic suppresion as an example.

There's even a canonical example in TTA. Some files in Junidy's library data that are restricted. (Mind you, I'd be vastly surprised if the Junidy Psionic Institute didn't have copies of those files.)

But I've been discussing 20th Century history, not the Psionic Suppressions.

What if nobody wants to know the truth? It is easy to put history back together when nobody is emotionally attached to it, but woe to the historian who tries it where people have used some lie or distortion to build a castle made of sand on.

But who would have any emotional investment in 20th Century history? You don't see the Danish Government frantically trying to suppress the truth about the Vikings or the Italians getting bent out of shape over allegations that the Ancient Romans kept slaves.

All that is past could be called a lie by the current powers and the records distorted or destroyed ala 1984 or Homage to Catalonia.

1984 is fiction. Homage to Catalonia I haven't heard of before. Is it a book ruthlessly suppressed by the Powers That Be and lost to us for all times? <Checks Wikipedia>. No, it is a book that has survived and is available to us and (probably) our descendants.

I'm not saying that the Imperium can't and won't suppress the truth (Though I might give you an argument about what their chances of actually doing it would realistically be). I am expressing extreme doubts that it would have any reason to suppress anything about the 20th Century, let alone everything.

Here is a good adventure hook: A historian sends out a party of characters to find the lost 7th disk of the Historiana Galactica published during the Rule of Man. The kicker is that on that disk is the real reason the first Interstellar war happened; say a cleaning robot accidentally fired a laser from a gunnery station and the other side being confused, fired back. Now both the Imperium and Solomani have built a massive history on the other side being wrong and neither want to see that disk reach the light of day. The historian gets assasinated by one side or another and the party facing enmity from both sides rues the day they set eyes on that disk. What is the value of history then? What if nobody is right and everybody wrong?

Published during the Rule of Man and presumably distributed to thousands of mainworlds? How did it get lost? How come the thousands and thousands of other history books and encyclopedias didn't mention that slip? Why would the Imperium and the Solomani Confederation care? The First Interstellar War is part of their common history. They BOTH claim descent from the Rule of Man, so they're both on the same side there.

But the really big question is, just how did the Imperium manage to edit all those other books? Frankly, it sounds about as plausible as an Ancient virus that goes through every database in Charted Space and elides all words containing the letter 'n'.


<____>

 

[Icosahedron]

We know pretty accurately the events of AD79 (Pompeii), because we have preserved writings, and archaeological evidence, but we know considerably less about the Minoan eruption of c1500BC. I'm not even sure we know the actual year (I'd have to Google it!) Was the Moon trip that earth-shattering?

Is there an argument buried in that last paragraph?

Hans

Yes, the argument is that as time passes, particularly multiple millennia, less information survives - especially if:
a) the information was destroyed (accidentally or deliberately, near the time or since)
b) the information was recorded in a language/format that is no longer intelligible eg Phaestos/computer disc
c) the information was recorded on media that are impermanent (so that no originals survive) eg everything recorded today apart from headstones and foundation stones
d) any copies made of the originals may be lost or tampered with
e) material may not be considered worth copying or saving - it's not viable to copy everything
f) people with their own agendas/indoctrinations decide what is copied and/or saved

Much depends on how important the event has seemed to be during the intervening time. If it's deemed inconsequential it runs the risk of being forgotten, but if it's vitally important it runs the risk of being distorted or suppressed.

But who would have any emotional investment in 20th Century history? You don't see the Danish Government frantically trying to suppress the truth about the Vikings or the Italians getting bent out of shape over allegations that the Ancient Romans kept slaves.

Depends. Your examples happen not to have emotional meaning for the descendants, but there are alternative examples. There are Germans denying certain events of just over half a century ago, there are Americans arguing daily about who actually shot a president just under half a century ago, there are Irish who are deeply upset about events that happened to their ancestors 400 years ago, and there are whole races (half a planet) perpetually warring about whether a certain individual 2000 years ago was divine or merely a prophet.

As for 1969, what if the Vilani wanted to suggest that the Terrans didn't discover spaceflight for themselves, but reverse-engineered a Vilani probe...? How accurate would your records on Capital be then?

There are people publishing stuff even now that claims much of our technology is a result of reverse-engineering from Roswell. Stuff that will be stored and copied time after time.

Suppose the 51st Century historian holds two electronic extracts (5000th generation copies) from the New York Times and three extracts (3000th generation copies) from the Fortean Times. He doesn't know which article is from which paper, but the Imperial archive on Vland (tampered with twelve centuries ago) agrees with the reverse-engineering articles. What will he record for posterity in his definitive historical treatise? Will his decision be affected by his race?

Yes, we are storing a lot of information just now, but we're also storing a lot of crap and it's all on impermanent media. Will the future (hopefully honest) historian be able to distinguish one from the other?

 

[rancke]

Yes, the argument is that as time passes, particularly multiple millennia, less information survives

So no new arguments, then.

The counter-argument is that as books are published in greater and greater numbers and the technology to copy them becomes easier and easier, the total loss of one becomes less and less likely. Have you any idea how many copies there are of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, 15th ed.? (I don't. I tried googling it, but failed. But it must be hundreds of thousands or millions).

A second counter-argument is that deliberate attempts to preserve knowledge will take the problems of accidental and deliberate destruction into account and take measures to counteract them.

- especially if:
a) the information was destroyed (accidentally or deliberately, near the time or since)

The information is already stored in multiple copies and formats.

b) the information was recorded in a language/format that is no longer intelligible eg Phaestos/computer disc

Language: Rosetta Project. Format: Reconstructing unknown formats is what cryptographers do for a living.

c) the information was recorded on media that are impermanent (so that no originals survive) eg everything recorded today apart from headstones and foundation stones

Impermanent under what conditions? Stored by a library or a museum or a private collector or a bank? Etched on glass discs and hidden in a time capsule?

With many millions of books to start with, some are bound to survive.

d) any copies made of the originals may be lost or tampered with

They may indeed, but as I've pointed out a couple of times already, you need to lose every copy without new copies being made. Not going to happen in the TU. (I'm referring to a general knowledge base of the 20th Century, not any particular datum).

e) material may not be considered worth copying or saving - it's not viable to copy everything

f) people with their own agendas/indoctrinations decide what is copied and/or saved

And when you've convinced all people of Charted Space to tamper with all extant copies of all encyclopedias, history books, and library data collections, what will you do for an encore?

Much depends on how important the event has seemed to be during the intervening time. If it's deemed inconsequential it runs the risk of being forgotten, but if it's vitally important it runs the risk of being distorted or suppressed.

The event? The original question was if Terra really knew anything about 1969 AD. How did you go from that to the singular?

Depends. Your examples happen not to have emotional meaning for the descendants, but there are alternative examples. There are Germans denying certain events of just over half a century ago, there are Americans arguing daily about who actually shot a president just under half a century ago, there are Irish who are deeply upset about events that happened to their ancestors 400 years ago, and there are whole races (half a planet) perpetually warring about whether a certain individual 2000 years ago was divine or merely a prophet.

And yet there is no shortage of Bibles and Korans in the world today.

As for 1969, what if the Vilani wanted to suggest that the Terrans didn't discover spaceflight for themselves, but reverse-engineered a Vilani probe...? How accurate would your records on Capital be then?

The Vilani? All of them? And why in the Universe would they want to do that? Deny that the Terrans invented the jump drive, that I can see, but what's so special about space travel?

Anyway, they wouldn't be able to tamper with the lovingly preserved copies of various 20th Century encyclopedias in the Emperor's private collection.

There are people publishing stuff even now that claims much of our technology is a result of reverse-engineering from Roswell. Stuff that will be stored and copied time after time.

And I'm positive that there are going to be crackpot Vilani supremacists publishing stuff about how the Terrans didn't actually invent the jump drive. Crackpot Vilani supremacists with the resources to tamper with every library collection in Charted Space, on the other hand, I'm equally positive won't exist. If they did, they'd be much better off using those resources to take over the Imperium.

Suppose the 51st Century historian holds two electronic extracts (5000th generation copies) from the New York Times and three extracts (3000th generation copies) from the Fortean Times.

Those are the only sources of information available to him? I'll try.

...

Nope, sorry. I can't manage to make that assumption.

Yes, we are storing a lot of information just now, but we're also storing a lot of crap and it's all on impermanent media. Will the future (hopefully honest) historian be able to distinguish one from the other?

Will he know anything about 1969 AD? Yes, he will. Will he know everything? Of course not. Will some of what he knows be false? Almost certainly -- no, make that completely certain. Will most of what he knows be reasonably accurate? Yes, it will.


Hans

 

[Maladominus]

Somewhere in the Third Imperium or the Solomani Confederation, there exists a small sect of people who still worship the 21st-century Terran idol named Justin Bieber.

 

[Peter Schutze]

>Is the current version of the history of the Roman Empire different in Moscov and in Washington and in London and in Copenhagen and in Rome?

romans ?!!!
you only need to look at 20th century military history. While the overview is substantially correct and stable the details shift regularly, especially about the soviet efforts in WW2. The campaign in france is also morphing with the limited efforts to counterattack (other than Arras) being highlighted more than say 20 years ago

Heck the official Australian view and reporting of its own forces in WW1 .... you are unlikely these days to read about officially sanctioned "war crimes" yet the government sponsored books published in the 20s casually report things like a corporal being punished for taking a prisoner contrary to orders

 

[Icosahedron]

The event? The original question was if Terra really knew anything about 1969 AD. How did you go from that to the singular?

By assumption that in singling out '1969' the OP was talking about the moon landing in particular and spaceflight in general rather than the price of bread. I figured it was a reasonable assumption.

And yet there is no shortage of Bibles and Korans in the world today.

Actually, this underlines my own point - how many of them are true to the original manuscripts, and how true were the manuscripts to the original events? How many different versions of the bible are there today? Which one is right?
Note - I don't want to go down that route, it'll get us Modded!

LOL, is there any point in continuing the discussion? We're not going to reach an agreement, are we?

 

[rancke]

Romans ?!!!
you only need to look at 20th century military history. While the overview is substantially correct and stable the details shift regularly, especially about the soviet efforts in WW2. The campaign in france is also morphing with the limited efforts to counterattack (other than Arras) being highlighted more than say 20 years ago.

[Emphasis mine].

The 20th Century is still contemporary or near-contemporary history to many of those writing about it. The Roman Empire is ancient history. That's one of my points. In the Classic Era -- in fact once the events described is several generations down the road, say by the 22nd Century at the latest -- the 20th Century is ancient history. People do not tend to go batshit crazy (i.e. "let's hack the Imperial Library Data and fake the documents" crazy) over ancient history.

Heck the official Australian view and reporting of its own forces in WW1 .... you are unlikely these days to read about officially sanctioned "war crimes" yet the government sponsored books published in the 20s casually report things like a corporal being punished for taking a prisoner contrary to orders

And yet no one has yet gotten around to destroying the court martial minutes and the newspaper reports, have they?

It's one thing to deny that something has happened, to ignore evidence or claim that the evidence is faked. It's an altogether different thing to set out to destroy the evidence, much less every copy of an encyclopedia or history book that happens to mention the evidence.

I'm not claiming that the Classic Era picture of the 20th Century will be accurate in every detail. That would be an absurd notion. What I'm claiming is that the overview will be "substantially correct and stable".


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Unless of course the Imperium has destroyed all the old history books, data, etc. .

A totalitarian state is in effect a theocracy, and its ruling caste, in order to keep its position, has to be thought of as infallible. But since, in practice, no one is infallible, it is frequently necessary to rearrange past events in order to show that this or that mistake was not made, or that this or that imaginary triumph actually happened. Then, again, every major change in policy demands a corresponding change of doctrine and a revaluation of prominent historical figures
-George Orwell

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Based on DPG's work, the Solomani, especially The Confederation government, SolSec and Party members have absolutely no qualms about suppressing, or distorting history in order to further Party agendas or policies. The 'Gene War' provides a direct example of such tampering within the setting. In a realistic TU, there are sure to be other examples.

Since the year posted is 1106, I voted for complete knowledge. I skimmed thru other posts. Yours struck me as the best to pick up on.

I do not think that SolSec or the Confederation would specifically alter the events of 1969, as that would interfere with Solomani "Major Race" statements. ("We didn't need those damned Vilani to get into space! We did it ourselves! We are the true humans"). But I definately agree in principal that that SolSec and the Party would alter, suppress or otherwise downplay history if it did not serve their interests of Solomani Supremacy.

 

[rancke]

Unless of course the Imperium has destroyed all the old history books, data, etc. .

Unless, of course, that is impossible. Which it is.

And also, you know, unless the Imperium has no remotely plausible motive to even try. Which it doesn't.

Since there's no plausible reason why it would try, it wouldn't have tried, and since it's impossible, it wouldn't have succeeded if it had tried.


Hans


PS. Did I make the point that it would actually be impossible? Check earlier posts for details.

 

[rancke]

But I definately agree in principal that that SolSec and the Party would alter, suppress or otherwise downplay history if it did not serve their interests of Solomani Supremacy.

Absolutely no argument there. But they wouldn't go about it by tracking down and destroying every extant copy of any history book and encyclopedia that mentioned an embarrassing fact.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Unless of course the Imperium has destroyed all the old history books, data, etc. .

A totalitarian state is in effect a theocracy, and its ruling caste, in order to keep its position, has to be thought of as infallible. But since, in practice, no one is infallible, it is frequently necessary to rearrange past events in order to show that this or that mistake was not made, or that this or that imaginary triumph actually happened. Then, again, every major change in policy demands a corresponding change of doctrine and a revaluation of prominent historical figures
-George Orwell

And no totalitarian state to date has been able to do so. For to destroy the information one must also destroy all the bearers of that information.

The closest any have come would be the Khmer Rouge... and it merely lead to their displacement from power, for along with the ideology they sought to destroy they had to destroy useful skills.

 

[Dragoner]

Unless, of course, that is impossible. Which it is.

And also, you know, unless the Imperium has no remotely plausible motive to even try. Which it doesn't.

Since there's no plausible reason why it would try, it wouldn't have tried, and since it's impossible, it wouldn't have succeeded if it had tried.


Hans


PS. Did I make the point that it would actually be impossible? Check earlier posts for details.

those who control the past, control the future.

why wouldn't they?

hardly impossible when you control 11,000 planets, have huge space fleets yet you can't destroy some old books?

 

[Dragoner]

And no totalitarian state to date has been able to do so. For to destroy the information one must also destroy all the bearers of that information.

The closest any have come would be the Khmer Rouge... and it merely lead to their displacement from power, for along with the ideology they sought to destroy they had to destroy useful skills.

no state has been as powerful as the 3i, imo. soviets did the closest imo, china does today. ever talk to the chinese? not only do they not know, but they do not want to know and can be openly hostlie.

 

[rancke]

those who control the past, control the future.

That's a meaningless platitude. It doesn't mean anything and it certainly doesn't prove anything. Try again.

why wouldn't they?

Why wouldn't they what? You're being very vague and non-specific about just exactly what part of the past the Imperium would want to revise. Since I don't konw what exactly your question actualy means, I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but I'm pertty sure it's going to be something along the lines of "Because it would serve no useful purpose."

...hardly impossible when you control 11,000 planets, have huge space fleets yet you can't destroy some old books?

That brings us back to a question of mine you ignored earlier. To paraphrase it a bit, just how do you envisage the Imperium going about finding and destroying these books? Not just 'some old books' either. ALL copies, hardcopy and electronic, of a LOT of old books in and out of the territory the Imperium covers AND all books that reference those old books.

That task is just so absolutely, utterly, and totally stupendously herculean that it beggars the mind. That is to say, impossible to accomplish.

Oh, and the Imperium don't control 11,000 planets. They have a loose hegemony over them. Not the same thing at all.

And just as an aside, I know you weren't the one who said my view was so very unfun, but I'm still going to say that an Imperium with the kind of insane control-freak power you're talking about would be exceedingly unfun.


Hans

 

[rancke]

No state has been as powerful as the 3i, imo. soviets did the closest imo, china does today. ever talk to the chinese? not only do they not know, but they do not want to know and can be openly hostlie.

The Imperium I've read about in Traveller material isn't very powerful. In fact, reams of words have been spent on wondering how something with the kind of resources the Imperium would logically have could possibly be so ineffective as it is described.

Not that it would matter if the Imperium was as powerful as you imply, because the Imperium only controls a chunk of Charted Space.


Hans