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Does Terra of IY 1106 really know anything about 1969AD?

Does Terra of IY 1106 really know anything about 1969AD?

  • Yes, they have precise recorded data of the events.

    Votes: 15 22.4%
  • Umm, they can probably do some research and get back to you.

    Votes: 38 56.7%
  • That was so long ago. Exactly how many years back are we talkin' here? Hundreds? Thousands?

    Votes: 12 17.9%
  • All history from that period is long lost and the ice age and dinosaurs are just a myth.

    Votes: 2 3.0%

  • Total voters
    67
Eye-witness memory is another fun thing. They forget things that happened and remember things that didn't happen.
Tau'Ri history is notable for the numerous accounts of miraculous works attributed to religious figures, especially when those accounts were put into writing only after the religious figure has died; perhaps years, decades, or even centuries afterwards.
 
So we have...

... loss of data; no data exists for a certain event, person, place or time period, and we don't even know that it is missing
And there will, of course, be a lot of that. Several billion lives for 3000 years -- obviously a lot of them won't be documented. Except in tax records, voting lists, genealogies and that sort of thing.

... data remains, but the context and meaning are unknown (no "Rosetta Stone" is available)
Some present-day knowledge preservations projects address that very problem.

... data remains, but the context or meaning has changed (try reading a text written in "English" of a thousand years ago)
I have and I really had no problems with it. Of course, the annotations were a great help.

... an abundance of data, but no there is no "checksum" against malicious revisionism
With eveyone who can afford a PC able to put his side of the story out on the Internet? I doubt it. The problem is more likely to be an overabundance of versions.

... an abundance of data, but many of its parts are in conflict with other parts
Oh, you thought of that. ;)

... an abundance of data, but most of it focuses only on a single event, person, place, or time period
... an abundance of data, but of significance only to special interests
... an abundance of data, but it is unrecognizable as data
... an abundance of data, but it is inaccessible
Encyclopedia: a work that contains information on all branches of knowledge or treats comprehensively a particular branch of knowledge usually in articles arranged alphabetically often by subject. [Merriam-Webster Online]​

"Encyclopedias have existed for around 2,000 years; the oldest still in existence, Naturalis Historia, was written in ca. 77 BCE by Pliny the Elder. The modern encyclopedia evolved out of dictionaries around the 17th century. Historically, some encyclopedias were contained in one volume, but some, such as the Encyclopaedia Britannica, became huge multi-volume works. Some modern encyclopedias are electronic and are often freely available, for example Wikipedia and Microsoft Encarta."[Wikipedia] (Emphasis mine)​



Hans
 
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there are also a lot of projects these days looking at accessible archives .... the one that sticks in my mind is imprinted crystals that project data when hit with light .... anything more polarised than a candle gives a clear multipage dataset

that suggests the possibility for very slanted (limited but detailed) knowledge etc

Got a link for those crystals? I'd be interested to learn more. :)


That last one I call "Can-Opener in a Can" - the data are there, but the means to access the data is locked up inside the data itself - you can only access the data if you have the means to do so, and you can only determine the means if you access the data.

This is what I meant by the electronic basket. If civilisation collapsed (or advanced*) so far that nobody knew what a computer was, it wouldn't matter how many silicon copies of 'build your own computer' and 'Encyclopaedia Galactica' existed, you wouldn't be able to read any of them - you may not even know that the disc contained data, it looks just like the 20th/21stC plastic coffee cup coasters you dug up last month.

*There is always the intervention of book-burning regimes to consider - even well-meaning ones. As a trivial example, how many copies of racist or sexist jokes will make it to the 22nd century archives?
Only data deemed important at the time of transfer will be updated to new media, and there is far too much to transfer everything. Most data will be lost over time, even without a collapse. How many music-hall songs that your great-grandfather sang have made it to MP3?
 
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>As a trivial example, how many copies of racist or sexist jokes will make it to the 22nd century archives?

i think this might actually be one of the key issues in the preservation of the "details" of history .... political correctness / self censorship several dozen times going forward as formats change etc

the "classic australian movie" for the term of his natural life has a scene where the main character gives the bigwigs daughter a seashell with a swastica he carved into it as a keepsake .... quite important to the ending

that suggests several possibilities ....
the talk about it being edited out comes true in the post blueray versions
its misinterpreted as suggesting there were Nazi elements active in 1820s Australia
its changed in future versions to a different politically meaningful symbol of the future era(s)

I think the movie Starship Troopers is a great example of how quickly this versioning/ censorship can occur .... my kids dont believe the heinlein book (not the movie novelisation) is so different to the movie
 
This is what I meant by the electronic basket. If civilisation collapsed (or advanced*) so far that nobody knew what a computer was, it wouldn't matter how many silicon copies of 'build your own computer' and 'Encyclopaedia Galactica' existed, you wouldn't be able to read any of them - you may not even know that the disc contained data, it looks just like the 20th/21stC plastic coffee cup coasters you dug up last month.
That ignores the existence of multiple projects aimed at deliberate preservation of knowledge against just that sort of decivilization. But more to the point, we are discussing the Traveller Universe here, aren't we? Otherwise we can postulate world-wide nuclear war or multiple hits by extinction-event meteors to wipe out any information not actually deposited on the Moon. Or we can postulate a 3000 year old obsesive-compulsive record-keeping world government.

Or a Vilani institution dedicated to the preservation of information with access to Terra. (The AAB during the RoM).
Only data deemed important at the time of transfer will be updated to new media, and there is far too much to transfer everything. Most data will be lost over time, even without a collapse. How many music-hall songs that your great-grandfather sang have made it to MP3?

The original question was if the people of the Classic Era really knew anything about the people of our day; not if they knew everything. Would you say that we know something about the people of Ancient Rome? I would.


Hans
 
>As a trivial example, how many copies of racist or sexist jokes will make it to the 22nd century archives?
How many cannibalism jokes has made it to contemporary archives? Googling 'cannibalism joke' gave me 250,000 hits.

In order to lose information to censorship, the censoring has to deal with every extant copy. It's not impossible, I suppose, but it's highly unlikely. And for every bowlderized version of Huck Finn there'll be dozens of news articles complaining about it, so that the historians of the next generation can know enough to restore the original version (with annotations about why the previous generation was being so ridiculous).

I think this might actually be one of the key issues in the preservation of the "details" of history .... political correctness / self censorship several dozen times going forward as formats change etc
That won't affect information stored in time capsules and similar projects.

that suggests several possibilities ....

the talk about it being edited out comes true in the post blueray versions

its misinterpreted as suggesting there were Nazi elements active in 1820s Australia

its changed in future versions to a different politically meaningful symbol of the future era(s)
But the encyclopedia articles about the historical use of the swastica will still be there.

I think the movie Starship Troopers is a great example of how quickly this versioning/ censorship can occur .... my kids dont believe the Heinlein book (not the movie novelisation) is so different to the movie.
But the book is still around for anyone to read and see for himself.


Hans
 
The original question was if the people of the Classic Era really knew anything about the people of our day; not if they knew everything. Would you say that we know something about the people of Ancient Rome? I would.


Hans

I agree 100% - there'd be data stored somewhere, and your average historian would be able to get it. Though your average non-historian wouldn't know how, other than "ask a historian."
 
There are some who claim that the pyramids are an ancient time capsule, but if so, we haven't found the information yet. There's a time capsule somewhere in my neighbourhood, but I don't know where it is. I suppose I could find out - on Google!
It's always seemed perverse to me that we bury information to ensure it's found, but we bury treasure to ensure it stays hidden...

The argument for cannibal jokes doesn't really stand up, since cannibal jokes aren't politically censored. You can freely call someone a cannibal, but you can't use the N word.

Yes, we're talking about the Traveller universe, but who says a couple of minor collapses didn't take place between now and then?

The original question was if the people of the Classic Era really knew anything about the people of our day; not if they knew everything. Would you say that we know something about the people of Ancient Rome? I would.
Hans

The original question was if the people of the Classic Era knew details about the headline events of AD1969. We know pretty accurately the events of AD79 (Pompeii), because we have preserved writings, and archaeological evidence, but we know considerably less about the Minoan eruption of c1500BC. I'm not even sure we know the actual year (I'd have to Google it!) Was the Moon trip that earth-shattering?
 
The argument for cannibal jokes doesn't really stand up, since cannibal jokes aren't politically censored. You can freely call someone a cannibal, but you can't use the N word.
That's debatable, but there's no need to, since the essential part of the argument was contained in the next paragraph.

Yes, we're talking about the Traveller universe, but who says a couple of minor collapses didn't take place between now and then?
The combined canonical information about the history of Terra says so.

Not that a couple of minor collapses on Terra would have destroyed all information about Terra's past. The moment an encyclopedia is taken off-planet, the information can survive elsewhere. In the libraries of Dingir and Shululshish and Capital and Vland and every Terran colony.
The original question was if the people of the Classic Era knew details about the headline events of AD1969.
No, it wasn't:
"Does Terra of IY 1106 really know anything about 1969AD?"​

We know pretty accurately the events of AD79 (Pompeii), because we have preserved writings, and archaeological evidence, but we know considerably less about the Minoan eruption of c1500BC. I'm not even sure we know the actual year (I'd have to Google it!) Was the Moon trip that earth-shattering?
Is there an argument buried in that last paragraph?


Hans
 
The combined canonical information about the history of Terra says so.

Based on DPG's work, the Solomani, especially The Confederation government, SolSec and Party members have absolutely no qualms about suppressing, or distorting history in order to further Party agendas or policies. The 'Gene War' provides a direct example of such tampering within the setting. In a realistic TU, there are sure to be other examples.

As far as collapses go, can anyone say that there were no regime changes inside the Solomani sphere of influence between the Terra of IY 1106 and Earth 1969AD? Political upheavals, even peaceable ones, will affect what sort of records will be passed along and which will be suppressed or run through a level of 'spin'.

So what if data is saved....how much of it be guaranteed to be accurate by 'OTU' historians?
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/farid/research/digitaltampering/

Given that the Solomani appear to support ethnicism and nationalism, how many of the saved records are tainted by the effects of spin and propaganda that exist to promote such nationalistic/ethnocentric beliefs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_and_nationalism

And this opinion is not even taking into account the numerous pseudo-history writings or crackpot theories of events, or urban legends, etc.

Sure, Terrans of IY 1106 might know things about 1969AD, but very very few will know anything with any amount of accuracy or confidence. The masses will only know what the media outlets textbooks, 'everyone knows that! We learned that in school!*.....', popular media and blatantly slanted 'news' programs, tell them, which is probably whatever the government agencies allow the media outlets to say.

*intoctrination and instruction to be good party members + a dose of nationalism, maybe?

incomplete and/or inaccurate information gives more wiggle room for stories anyways.
 
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Based on DPG's work, the Solomani, especially The Confederation government, SolSec and Party members have absolutely no qualms about suppressing, or distorting history in order to further Party agendas or policies. The 'Gene War' provides a direct example of such tampering within the setting. In a realistic TU, there are sure to be other examples.
Sure to be. Likewise, there's sure to be others standing by and assiduously documenting the suppressions and distortions. System critics, hostile neighbors, perhaps even a few scholars.

Which begs the question of why any government would bother to distort the truth about life on Terra in 1969 AD.

As far as collapses go, can anyone say that there were no regime changes inside the Solomani sphere of influence between the Terra of IY 1106 and Earth 1969AD? Political upheavals, even peaceable ones, will affect what sort of records will be passed along and which will be suppressed or run through a level of 'spin'.
<cut and paste>
"In order to lose information to censorship, the censoring has to deal with every extant copy. It's not impossible, I suppose, but it's highly unlikely. And for every bowlderized version of Huck Finn there'll be dozens of news articles complaining about it, so that the historians of the next generation can know enough to restore the original version (with annotations about why the previous generation was being so ridiculous)."​

So what if data is saved....how much of it be guaranteed to be accurate by 'OTU' historians?

Given that the Solomani appear to support ethnicism and nationalism, how many of the saved records are tainted by the effects of spin and propaganda that exist to promote such nationalistic/ethnocentric beliefs?
Whatever the Awful Solomani would like to revise, they're not going to be able to touch the files on Shululsish and Capital and Vland and Regina.

Besides, who said anything about accuracy? There's a reason historians prefer primary sources. Still, all the copies of Encyclopedia Brittanica, 15th Ed., and Microsoft Encarta that are sure to survive will at least give a pretty solid foundation.


Hans
 
How would future generations determine which version of Terrie history is the most accurate?

a. The "Official" version kept on Shululsish?
b. The "Official" version kept on Capital?
c. The "Official" version kept on Vland?
d. The "Official" version kept on Regina?
e. The "Official" version kept on Terra?

Which version is more "Official" than the others?
 
Sure to be. Likewise, there's sure to be others standing by and assiduously documenting the suppressions and distortions. System critics, hostile neighbors, perhaps even a few scholars.
So, who is correct? The primary 'officially sanctioned' source, or the cranks who claim its been changed?... can you be certain after a few millenia has passed? All that will occur is the typical scholar's debate about who is right and who is wrong. The average citizen, especially on other worlds, won't give a crap and just continue to believe what they've been taught. and we all know how perfectly accurate textbooks in general education are.

Which begs the question of why any government would bother to distort the truth about life on Terra in 1969 AD.
For the same reason a government might put 'spin' on history today; to make themselves look good and make their foes look bad.


<cut and paste>
"In order to lose information to censorship, the censoring has to deal with every extant copy. It's not impossible, I suppose, but it's highly unlikely. And for every bowlderized version of Huck Finn there'll be dozens of news articles complaining about it, so that the historians of the next generation can know enough to restore the original version (with annotations about why the previous generation was being so ridiculous)."​
Can you be certain? The example you give was highly publicized as the work is required reading in many American schools, but what about works that are not considered classics. What about the 'bowdlerization' of works by line editors who determine what gets published or perhaps determine what gets archived?

Whatever the Awful Solomani would like to revise, they're not going to be able to touch the files on Shululsish and Capital and Vland and Regina.
They don't need to touch those files. The spin and revision and bowdlerizations are ongoing and have been for the all of the time in question. The files you think can't be touched have already been touched over the millenia. Nevermind that the Solomani controlled such things during the Rule of Man anyways. And the winner writes the history, or so its been said.

funny reading
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Bowdlerise
 
How would future generations determine which version of Terrie history is the most accurate?
The same way historians determine which history of the Roman Empire is the most accurate, except that they would have far more primary sources about the 20th Century than we have about the Roman Empire.

a. The "Official" version kept on Shululsish?
b. The "Official" version kept on Capital?
c. The "Official" version kept on Vland?
d. The "Official" version kept on Regina?
e. The "Official" version kept on Terra?

Which version is more "Official" than the others?
Is the current version of the history of the Roman Empire different in Moscov and in Washington and in London and in Copenhagen and in Rome?

What about the official version in Washinton, and the fifty state capitals? Why would you expect the versions on Shululsish, Capital, Vland, and Regina to differ significantly? Or Terra, for that matter, seeing that it has been an Imperial world for more than a century.

Mind you, there are probably any number of different versions, but every major library would have copies of all of them.


Hans
 
So, who is correct? The primary 'officially sanctioned' source, or the cranks who claim its been changed?... can you be certain after a few millenia has passed? All that will occur is the typical scholar's debate about who is right and who is wrong. The average citizen, especially on other worlds, won't give a crap and just continue to believe what they've been taught. and we all know how perfectly accurate textbooks in general education are.
And your point is? The difference between common knowledge and what an expert can find out was brought up many posts ago.

For the same reason a government might put 'spin' on history today; to make themselves look good and make their foes look bad.
I guess that's why the history of the Viking Era is so different in England and in Denmark. Except that I'm pretty sure they're not. I repeat, why would anyone bother to revise the history of the 20th Century? It's as relevant to the Rule of Man as the history of the Vikings is to us.

Can you be certain? The example you give was highly publicized as the work is required reading in many American schools, but what about works that are not considered classics. What about the 'bowdlerization' of works by line editors who determine what gets published or perhaps determine what gets archived?
You still have the original works to compare with. There are encyclopedias and book collections being buried in time capsules. There are plans to put sattelites in orbit with knowledge repositories. The first Vilani spies to visit Earth will buy, beg, and steal all the encyclopedias they can get their hands on. The first Vilani tourists to visit peacefully will buy copies. Outposts and settlements from Earth will bring along vast library databases. The long range missions will set off with as comprehensive collection of Earth cultural information as can be crammed into the hulls. The AAB will send people with the express purpose of collecting all the knowledge they possibly can and put it in the next edition of their library data. The 25th (or whatever the number) Edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica will be spread from Dingir to Vland in the days of the Rule of Man.

They don't need to touch those files. The spin and revision and bowdlerizations are ongoing and have been for the all of the time in question. The files you think can't be touched have already been touched over the millenia. Nevermind that the Solomani controlled such things during the Rule of Man anyways. And the winner writes the history, or so its been said.
No one is going to go through every encyclopedia held by every library and private book colelction and bowlderize it.


Hans
 
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sigh

You are set in your opinion. Your TU has perfect knowledge of the past and no retcons or revisionism to historical record. Have fun with that. Personally, I feel such a position is both unreasonable and boring.

"The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice. "
Mark Twain
 
You are set in your opinion.
That's true.

Your TU has perfect knowledge of the past and no retcons or revisionism to historical record.
That's not what I said at all, and I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from foisting opinions I haven't expressed on me. I've no doubt that there are plenty of revisionist histories in the 12th Century Imperial. But my TU (and, more importantly, the OTU as far as I interpret the available evidence) ALSO has a vast number of copies of encyclopedias, newspaper archives, biographies, travelogues, history books, etc. from the 20th Century surviving into the Classic Era. Just look at how much material survives from the days where books were handwritten and existed in only a few copies each. Compare that to the ease with which information is copied nowadays. Look at the deliberate efforts being made today to preserve information for posterity. Can you refute a single one of the examples I gave in my previous post, let alone all of them? No? Then don't tell me I'm being unreasonable.


Hans
 
Remember, some of the greatest losses in knowledge were the edicts against magic in 357 AD or so when entire libraries were consigned to the fire. Not a disaster (in and of itself, but for future historians, the worst disaster possible), not a collapse, but ignorance. Ignorance destroying knowledge, who would have thought of that.

Don't underestimate the power of ignorance.
 
Remember, some of the greatest losses in knowledge were the edicts against magic in 357 AD or so when entire libraries were consigned to the fire. Not a disaster (in and of itself, but for future historians, the worst disaster possible), not a collapse, but ignorance. Ignorance destroying knowledge, who would have thought of that.

Don't underestimate the power of ignorance.
And if a single library collection containing these lost books had been hidden away somewhere, those books wouldn't have been lost. Don't underestimate the power of the copy function.


Hans
 
And if a single library collection containing these lost books had been hidden away somewhere, those books wouldn't have been lost. Don't underestimate the power of the copy function.


Hans

Maybe so, maybe no; but the fact it happened once speaks volumes. Could it happen again? Yes, infact given the time span (3500 years or so), it could have happened multiple times. The burning of the Alexandrian Library combined with the Edicts against Magic show, that we know it could happen again and again (even avoiding speaking of big book burners like the Fascists and Soviets), so the best we could say is that they have pieced together a good functioning history of the era, how accurate is anybody's guess and entirely dependent on who you are talking with to which version you might hear, c'est la vie. Buzz Aldrin could be strung up by Vilani in a Solomani history book.
 
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