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Does the OTU have Cruise Ships?

Ok sports fans, I have been working on what I am now referring to he J3 model.
In which I am looking at how ships operate with a jump 3 drive. And well j4 works within this model as well.
Isn't it interesting how the way the trading game "inverts" as range per jump gets longer? :rolleyes:
Sure, as the range goes up the revenue tonnage goes down, so ton for transported ton, ships with more powerful drives become less economical on the financial balance spreadsheet (more expensive to construct, lower capacity to move stuff). You'll usually "hit a wall" in the J3 to J4 range on viability, depending on how big (and therefore, expensive!) the ship design is, with respect to profit potentials.

It makes for quite the interesting Traveling Salesman Problem ... especially when you can "design the salesman" who will need to be doing the traveling!

There are pros and cons to specialization, but every time to you increase specialization you reduce your Total Addressable Market potential ... narrowing the roles your starship design is well suited for. Specialize too much and you wind up with a design that will "struggle to survive" in less than optimal conditions or when placed under stress (financial, bad luck, piracy, misjumps, etc.).

This is why I maintain that the legacy J1 Free Trader, J2 Far Trader, J1 Fat Trader and J3 Subsidized Liner from CT (all 1G merchants ships) are all "optimized" for running routes in "well settled" star systems with an effective constabulary system defense force that has eradicated piracy in their territory, and which can reliably provide refined fuel from shore support facilities. That's a LOT of responsibility to offload onto others in order to maximize your own revenue tonnage and profit potential. It "works better" as a business model for the J1 merchant ships than it does for the J2 merchants, because drives and fuel increase expenses pretty dramatically while simultaneously reducing revenue tonnage ... but at the same time, that J1 range really limits the number of routes that can be SAFELY run at minimal risk.

Needless to say, there are plenty of merchants out there willing to accept risk levels higher than minimum in order to make a profit, but still ... :rolleyes:



Which is a rather roundabout way of saying You Get What You Paid For, I guess.
If you scrimp and skimp on self-defense and the reliability of (refined) fuel supplies, you can build absurdly cheap starships (such as the J1 Free Trader @ MCr37.08 that takes 44 weeks to build). But without those self-defense and reliable refined fuel supplies running routes between type A/B starports only ... the odds of being able to "hold onto" such a starship for 40 years become almost vanishingly remote.

If you want a starship that can "fend for itself" in poorly patrolled star systems, survive on "wilderness refueling" and not be at the mercy of life support replenishment expenses everywhere you go ... well ... that's going to cost you.

Ships that are designed such that you can expect to hold onto them even when going potentially dangerous places will have higher construction costs than those designed for more ... permissive ... environments. At that point, the real question becomes ... at what price security? ... because putting all your eggs in one basket isn't worth much if the basket you're using won't last for the long haul.
 
How much does it cost to operate an Azhanti in Vargrspace?
:oops:

... a LOT ... :eek:

Picking up the ship(s) at "surplus pricing" definitely helps on the acquisitions side of things, but the operational overhead costs on crew salaries and life support will EAT YOU ALIVE as an accountant trying to balance the financial spreadsheets. Bare minimum, you aren't going to be relying on JUST passenger and freight ticket revenues in order to break even if you're an operator of one of these. You're playing in a whole different market segment from the penny ante small ship tramp merchants with one of these Bad Boys!
 
Let's not ignore that pentajump drive.
J5 can't cover its costs even at per-parsec pricing. (The issue starts at J-4). J2 gets overpaid slightly, J3, underpaid slightly.

They're either living off spec trade roulette, or chartered at rates that cover expenses.

Or subsidized.

ETA: Or adding promptness surcharges to the per-parsec rates..
 
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For ships THAT BIG (60ktons?!?) ... you're looking at subsidized AND charter!
Sorry, was thinking of the more general case, not AHL. Armor'll cut into the payload fraction too.

It's not out there to make money from selling cargo. It's there to make sure Oberlindes's other ships can keep what they make..
 
  • 200 ton J2/1G Far Trader = MCr59.56 (unarmed), 3 crew, 6 high passengers, 4 low passengers, 61 tons cargo
  • 332 ton J3/3G SIE Clipper = MCrCr194.2048 (stock, complete), 6 crew, 3 high passengers, 0 low passengers, 36 tons cargo
So right from the jump, things are looking pretty grim for the J3 ship in this comparison. After all, just on price alone, the J3 Clipper is over 3x the construction cost(!) ... so if we want to compete "fairly" in terms of return on investment, we have to do this:
So I've continued to noodle around with my J3/3G SIE Clipper design after doing the above "test comparison" against (3x) Far Traders for a comparable amount of capital investment and realized that I had a suboptimal configuration that could be improved upon even further.

Scream for me, numbers! :eek:

So now I'm looking at a 100% manifest capacity of:
  • 312 ton J3/3G SIE Clipper + 20 ton Laser Fighter (external docking) = 332 tons
    MCrCr193.376 (stock, complete), 6 crew, 6 high passengers, 0 low passengers, 24+6=30 tons cargo
Which on the face of things looks like it might be going backwards on the speculative cargo potential ... until you realize that the 8x 12 ton modules in the 96 ton hangar bay can be moved outside(!), reducing drive performance but increasing cargo transport capacity by +96 tons (in the hangar bay) ... which ought to be enough for "most speculative cargo loads" that could be purchased. The reshuffle of starship hull size from 332 tons to 312 tons (with the Laser Fighter more or less permanently docked externally for towing through normal and jump space) actually yielded a "rebate" of 6 tons (smaller starship hull requires less jump fuel), which I used to add a 6 ton cargo bay ... into which a Mail Vault can be installed!

I also adjusted the skills for the two pilots to make them interchangeable for being able to crew the starship or the small craft, which then meant they needed Pilot-3/Gunnery-2. This is so that when crewing the Laser Fighter the "skills throughput" equates to Small Craft-1 plus Gunnery-1 ... but when crewing the starship, Gunnery skill is not needed (the starship is unarmed!) and can thus use their full Pilot-3 skill, which in turn means that they give the starship an effective +1 Agility ("I know a few maneuvers, we'll lose 'em." :cool:), which then has the added benefit of making the starship MUCH MORE LIKELY to be able to Break Off By Acceleration (from the Reserve, beyond weapons range) away from unwanted/hostile encounters while the Laser Fighter deploys as a screening element to harass and delay an attacker long enough for the starship to escape (before ALSO maneuvering to Break Off By Acceleration and similarly escape to rendezvous with the starship again).

But it was when I started looking at the economic analysis that things started getting REALLY WILD. 🤩

I mean, I had a J3/3G starship with E/E/E drives that yield code: 1 @ 1000 tons, so if I loaded up with a maximum external load @ 1J2, I was looking at this kind of capacity/performance profile:
  • 6 crew, 6 high passengers, 0 low passengers, 96+(2*12)+6=126 tons (owned) cargo (or 121 tons cargo + 5 tons x-mail), 6*12=72 tons third party cargo
For an "owned" starship (paid off or bank financed), a 100% manifest (non-charter) would yield:
  • 60,000+126,000 (cargo only)+64,800 = Cr250,800 in revenue
  • 60,000+146,000 (xmail)+64,800 = Cr270,800 in revenue
Jump 2x per month with those kinds of revenues and that's Cr501,600 (cargo) / Cr541,600 (x-mail) in revenue ... with only Cr31,400 in crew salaries, Cr0 in life support overhead costs and Cr200 for berthing fees and Cr0 for wilderness refueling (because, streamlined hull and fuel purification plant).

Net profit on 100% manifests @ J2 therefore maximize out at Cr470.000 (cargo) / 490,000 (x-mail) per month with a starship that carries an armed fighter.

Compare that to the net profit potential of 3x (unarmed) Far Traders for almost the same capital investment in construction costs:
Net revenue: Cr635,400 (wilderness refueling) / Cr485,400 (purchasing refined fuel) per month

And I'm thinking that being THAT competitive on the net profit bottom line with ONE armed starship versus THREE unarmed starships like that 😲 must mean that "I'm on to something" 🧐 with the direction this bit of design research is going. The "negation" of the life support costs and fuel expenses is making a pretty big difference, as are the salary requirements for a small but still highly skilled crew.

Also, 6 high passengers and ~120+70 tons of cargo (SIE Clipper) is probably easier to scare up than trying to find 21 high passengers, 12 low passengers and 183 tons of cargo (3x Far Traders) to move.



The kicker was when I loaded up the 312 ton SIE Clipper for hauling +680 tons externally (including the 20 ton Laser Fighter and a lot of third party charter of the external capacity), the starship could transport up to 690 tons of cargo @ J1/1G and earn a profit of up to Cr1,355,600 per month on 100% manifest revenues (x-mail would increase that amount by another Cr40,000 per month!).
  • Single/Initial Production (100% cost) Bank Financing Monthly Mortgage Payment (Total Cost / 240 for 480 months) = Cr997,817
  • Volume Production (80% cost) Bank Financing Monthly Mortgage Payment (Total Cost / 240 for 480 months) = Cr805,734
In other words, so long as there is "plenty of passengers and cargo to move" ... my "variable tonnage merchant" design could earn enough profits to pay off a bank loan in under 30 years from J1 operations without even dabbling in speculative cargoes (which would have the potential to hasten the payoff date!).



So ... yeah. :rolleyes:
I think I'm on to something VERY INTERESTING with this design philosophy. 😉
 
1. It's unlikely that the Azhanti was handed over undemilitarized without some unwritten stipulations.

2. Since it's original function likely included reconnaissance, it gives the Imperium a way to do some assessment of military, industrial, and political situations in bandit country, whether electronic or human/sophont intelligence gathering.

3. You can probably also sell them electronic toys and vehicles with soft and hard ware backdoors, that if not phoning home, could make occasional data dumps to a stealthed satellite.
 
What you're on to is that there will be a supply of 40-year-old high-Jn/high-G ships that started out as megacorp jump tugs. :)
The design may be a bit "small" to qualify as a "Barge" according to the TravellerWiki definition of the term (perhaps), but the notion of jump tug is VERY applicable to this design philosophy of leveraging EXTERNAL towing capacity ... and you can only do that if your unencumbered hull+drives are capable of "excess performance" for your hull displacement (giving you some "towing capacity" to work with).

But yes, this latest design is so remarkably fabulous in terms of capabilities that I can easily imagine almost each and every one of them lasting longer than 40 years if given proper TLC after delivery by their crews to keep them in good running condition.

The problem is that the design is almost TOO GOOD for its own good! 🥺
There isn't anything in it (like military grade tech or whatever) that would prevent competitors from reverse engineering their own versions of it localized to supply industrial engineering and supply chains in their local region(s). In other words ... "everyone is going to want one" ... and there isn't much stopping a variety of different shipyards from coming up with their own bootleg copies of the design ... an unfortunate side effect wanting to make the engineering fundamentals as easy to maintain, repair and replace as possible (it is a TL=10 civilian design) ... meaning that it's hard to keep it proprietary in ways that can't be copied by naval architects and shipyards elsewhere.

I figure, as a matter of backstory for the class, that SIE would have had a monopoly over construction of the first generation of ships to roll off the line at Grote/Glisten ... but then once "word got around" about the class and what it could do as a frontier merchant, I figure that Other Parties™ would want to get in on the action. If requests to share the naval architect plans are denied to third parties, they'll just copy the spec sheet and go to a competing shipyard and naval architect and get THEM to build a bootleg copy.

So then by the second and third generations of production (each generation being ~40 years), SIE would no longer have "monopoly rights" over the construction of the class (mainly because they couldn't keep up with demand from the one shipyard that they control). So the Darrians would have their own localized version, as would the Sword Worlds. Copies would be getting constructed at Vilis/Vilis and even Aramis/Aramis to meet demand from clients in other parts of the Spinward Marches sector.

The story then becomes one in which SIE was ultimately unable to retain monopoly control over construction of the class, mainly because they made a product "too good" for them to be able to keep its production exclusively to themselves ... and it also doesn't require any kind of exotic tech that would prevent its proliferation to other shipyards and polities. One of those "victim of success" type stories.

Oops. :rolleyes:
 
1. It's unlikely that the Azhanti was handed over undemilitarized without some unwritten stipulations.
Canon states otherwise.
"Emissary, ex-Sparkling Distress (Fl-6379) was declared surplus to the needs of
the lmperium and sold to Oberlindes Lines. Ordinarily, such ships are sold with a
demilitarization agreement, but delivery of this ship took place outside of the
Imperial borders, and (through a technicality) could not be forced to be demilitarized.
There was some evidence that the entire transaction was coerced by Oberlindes,
but this has never been proven.

Because of the technical circumvention of regulations, the ship was not allowed
to reenter the Imperium, and was instead operated from an Oberlindes trading
center in the Uthe subsector (at PandrinIUthe 0610). From there it made excursions
into Vargr territory, taking unusual materials, finished goods, and processed
ores in exchange for Imperial goods, rare wines, and technological jewels.
The retention of the armament by the Emissary was a bold and well-reasoned
move. The strong show of force to the Vargr created a respect that gave an advantage
to the traders; fortunately, the gunnery was never actually used in the trading
missions."
 
It couldn't have happened without compliance from one or more of the Imperium's intelligence agencies.

Presumably, also no Imperium export duties.
That's a reasonable interpretation: it was made to look like Oberlindes pulled a fast one, so the Imperial Navy could establish plausible deniability. :)
 
Was just thinking this morning -
One place I can see a "Cruise Ship In Space" is someplace like Regina - 4 habitable planets in the system, so there's no Jump wait time, and there's going to be people who need to go back and forth on a regular basis as well as those who want to visit the sights or family on other worlds in the system.

I can see there being a 6G shuttle service....but I can also see there being a 2G Luxury option for people who are going on vacation, and are thinking a 3 night resort experience, a week on another planet, then 3 days back would be fine. As a bonus, you're in radio range of home the whole time, so if some emergency comes up, you're golden.

I could even see a 1G Luxury/Remote Work, with the staterooms having a niche set aside for an office area so people could put in a work day during the trip. Videoconferences would be flaky with lag, but email and IM would be fine. Get up, do the breakfast buffet, come back and do 4 hours, Lunch Buffet and socializing, then 4 hours and dinner, dancing and party. Nap time and then do it again for a week. A week for business meetings at the destination, and do it again on the way back.
 
I have to agree that such giant ships would not make sense in the sectors Traveller has concentrated on.
Example: The Spinward Marches.
May of the systems in the Marches don't have populations in the millions to start with...so, half a million of those is not even possible
many other worlds have Billions...but they are poor and starving....So, tourists are not coming from there either.

And, in a Universe where the book monthly incomes for a Ship's Pilot(A good job) is Cr 6,000 a month, you have to ask yourself how many tourists could afford such a huge ship....

And, if you can't get the tourists, you can't pay for the ships.

I do find that ship classes like the King Richard (Max: 300 passengers) is well suited to the Universe presented.

Now, in the Empire's core, you might have subsectors wealthy enough for that....But I doubt it.
I leave the option open only because I have not done that math.

Of course, it is your Traveller Universe......But I feel it would be the same as having gill-based aquadics evolving and creating a large civilization on a desert world ...it does not seem to make sense
 
I have to agree that such giant ships would not make sense in the sectors Traveller has concentrated on.
Example: The Spinward Marches.
I would argue that a better approach is the notion that "kilo cruise liners" carrying 1000+ passengers at a time are definitively not ACS type starships for a party of PCs to tool around in on a whimsical basis. They're simply "too big" to be anything other than a setting/backdrop/location for stuff to happen in, rather than being something that the PCs can command and control.

Kind of like the Orient Express.
It was a steam train, running on rails, with the whole thing owned and managed by corporations with DEEP pockets to keep the train(s) running on time. Stuff could HAPPEN while the train was in motion (such as a murder mystery), but none of the principle characters in the story "owned" or even operated the train. At best, the main characters could enlist the cooperation and assistance of the train's staff and crew, but no one was in a position of "I'M THE OWNER, I PAY YOUR SALARY, NOW DO AS I SAY OR ELSE!" because the train wasn't "theirs" since they were just passengers traveling to various destinations.

In order to "own" the Orient Express train, you would have to be an industrialist/wealthy magnate so far up the social ladder pecking order as to legitimately travel in the role of Owner Aboard (presumably with your own private rail car attached to the train!). The only thing that even comes close to that kind of power and pull in the Traveller context would be a megacorporate executive with social standing in the D+ range ... and even then, you wouldn't be able to "order" a kilo cruise liner to go off course in pursuit of a private adventure and get away with it (you could do it ONCE... but... there would be consequences... :oops:).

Traveller, as a game, tends to detail whatever the PCs can reasonably expect to interact with and CONTROL ... while leaving the "bigger picture" stuff more nebulous and floating in the background, leaving it up to Referees to fill in the details however they would like to as needed for their own campaigns and (shared) storytelling. So in that respect, there is no "need" for Traveller to have (exhaustively) detailed just what kind of kilo cruise liners exist and where they run their routes.

If a Referee wants to set a campaign aboard such a cruise liner running between Regina/Regina and Porozolo/Rhylanor, have at it! Just don't assume that any of the PCs will be responsible for such a commercial venture since it will be (quite literally) WELL above their pay grade to organize, finance and operate such a commercial venture.
"A billion here, a billion there ... pretty soon we'll start talking in terms of real money!"
My key point here being that the bigger ships get ... the less flexible and "available" for adventure action under the command and control of PCs they become.

It's one of the ironies of LBB A1 The Kinunir that even if the PCs were able to find and salvage the lost ship, they would have no way to afford to crew it, let alone keep up with the finances necessary to sustain and maintain operations for a warship that is particularly ill suited to "paying its own way" via commercial activities. The (lost) ship was a rich reward if you could find it and take control of it, but financing the continued ownership of it to go flying around and having adventures at the whims of the PCs, thereby making the ship an ACS type starship, wasn't really a practical outcome.

Consequently, ACS type starships have certain ... requirements ... to them, namely that they not be too big (requiring a large and expensive crew that needs way too many NPCs) and not too small (limiting capabilities). Ironically, the BEST ships to use for adventuring around in are going to be either tramp traders (who can go wherever at any time) or detached duty surplus scout/couriers (who can also go wherever and have minimal overhead costs when doing so), and of the those two basic choices, the tramp traders are the ones who are best able to "live off the land" (financially speaking) so as to finance any kinds of diversionary whims (or bank balance pressures) that lead to adventures.
 
It occurs to me that from a certain POV, putting all your leadership and fiscal giants on one special built ship with enticing luxuries and the right mindset/crew would be just the thing to elicit intel for regime control.
 
It occurs to me that from a certain POV, putting all your leadership and fiscal giants on one special built ship with enticing luxuries and the right mindset/crew would be just the thing to elicit intel for regime control.
Morgus: "I hadn't thought of that." :sneaky:
President: "Of course you hadn't." :cautious:

Isn't it fun to come up with Q-ship applications for otherwise innocuous/inconsequential ships that no one should be paying any attention to? :rolleyes:
 
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