General Drop Tank Tender?

[Grav_Moped]

TL-15 to discover, TL-12 to sustain?

 

[kilemall]

TL-15 to discover, TL-12 to sustain?

Shrug, maybe. I’d do to whatever effect you want on your universe.

 

[mike wightman]

It is a military TL12 breakthrough. Stands to reason it would not be declassified for civilian use until much later.

In 1105 the TAS says:

L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the
interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor
engineering, a joint press release explained.

In service, now add the r&d for civilian craft and prototyping and you could push it back a decade or so before that.

So civilian development 1080ish.

 

[whartung]

To me, its always been about the capacitors.

From JTAS #24:

An operating jump drive requires several basic components which, when operating together, make jump possible.

Power Source: Jump uses large amounts of energy to rip open the bar- riers between normal space and jump space. Normally, only a fusion power plant can supply this energy. Some alternate systems make use of solar power generators (which operate much more slowly), or anti-matter power systems (rare and very high-tech).

Energy Storage Nodes: Once power is generated, it must be stored until the instant of jump. Capacitors or large fast-discharge batteries fit this requirement.

Something has to hold the power between when the power is generated and when the jump happens. We've had Jump Capacitors for a long time.

And that's why I mentioned the "buffer" tank, drop the tanks early in the fuel cycle so when the capacitors fill, you can jump. The buffer tank is the interim time, even if you have crummy capacitors. One can suggest that the advancement Mike mentions allows you to run completely from drop tanks, rather than having the tanks as a supplement.

Mind, I've always clung to the notion of Solar Power charging the jump capacitors -- it just takes a really long time. Of course that suggests that the capacitors don't leak, and can hold the charge "long enough". It's just a PRACTICAL matter to charge them as quick as you can, rather than lingering around.

It's fair to argue that somethings are just not explored, since the "wisdom of the crowds" (i.e. Everyone does it this way. We've always done it this way. We've been doing it this way for 100's of years!) can overshadow the narrative. Those who question why we don't do X when we've been doing Y for hundreds of years don't have all the facts.

 

[kilemall]

My understanding of RL large capacity capacitors is they are ideal for quick charge/discharge, take a lot of punishment and don’t degrade chemically like batteries, but leak power badly and are not ideal for retaining usable amounts for weeks or even days.

I’ve read of people trying to extend their retention to usable levels for homes and vehicles, but not there yet.

I posit that capacitors are metallic hydrogen (m-hyd), required more mature gravitic tech to be able to make hence TL9, and this power level discharged rapidly was required to be able to initiate jump. Handy for energy weapons too.

And that further, leaving them at full power means heating up and expanding the m-hyd with bad results if left too long.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The primary difference (in layman terms) between a battery and a capacitor is that a battery tends to be a chemical or mechanical storage system for energy, while capacitors tend to be electrostatic storage systems for energy.

Batteries tend to have a large energy capacity, but a limited rate of charge/discharge.
Capacitors tend to have limited energy capacity, but are capable of incredible rates of charge/discharge.

This is why IRL battery research efforts are taking a serious look at hybridizing battery tech with capacitor tech to "get the best of both worlds" of a blend of good capacity (batteries) with the potential for higher surge rates of charge/discharge so as to help "buffer" and balance power loads on the batteries with limited duration surge demands.

However, I'm not aware of any kind of either battery or capacitor application (which isn't faulty or engineered wrong) that you can charge up with power and then have that power "degrade/drain away" within minutes. Both batteries and capacitors tend to retain their charges over time (granted, not indefinitely, but certainly longer than a few minutes to an hour) when they aren't being intentionally discharged.

 

[kilemall]

The primary difference (in layman terms) between a battery and a capacitor is that a battery tends to be a chemical or mechanical storage system for energy, while capacitors tend to be electrostatic storage systems for energy.

Batteries tend to have a large energy capacity, but a limited rate of charge/discharge.
Capacitors tend to have limited energy capacity, but are capable of incredible rates of charge/discharge.

This is why IRL battery research efforts are taking a serious look at hybridizing battery tech with capacitor tech to "get the best of both worlds" of a blend of good capacity (batteries) with the potential for higher surge rates of charge/discharge so as to help "buffer" and balance power loads on the batteries with limited duration surge demands.

However, I'm not aware of any kind of either battery or capacitor application (which isn't faulty or engineered wrong) that you can charge up with power and then have that power "degrade/drain away" within minutes. Both batteries and capacitors tend to retain their charges over time (granted, not indefinitely, but certainly longer than a few minutes to an hour) when they aren't being intentionally discharged.

Ya I am not an electrician so I don’t have a feel for that other then inducing discharges to temporarily fix a problem. So maybe for our m-hyd capacitors it’s more a problem of heating up and risking catastrophic detonation. Say TL = EP that can be retained as a battery.

Has to be something or everything would already be operating Annic Nova style.

I don’t have to spoiler that, do I?

 

[Dragoner]

Batteries degrade in temp extremes, capacitors explode with voltage flux. Ships have a very ill defined power generation that ep's make worse, as they are just gamist. With Drop Tanks, I make them cheaper, and more available, and by TL E, reusable:

When a drop tank is used, roll 2d6. On an 8+, the
tank survives the ejection process and can be
retrieved and reused. Otherwise, it is ruined by the
process. At TL14 the use of drop tanks has been
improved to such a degree that drop tanks designed
at this tech level or above will automatically survive
use.

 

[Condottiere]

Capacitors collect energy, and until Mongoose, were rather prejudiced, only accepting fusion; exceptionally, Collectors, who were exclusively cosmic rays.

Black Globes can transfer theirs, since jump capacitors so far have been the only thing identified as being used for that purpose.

Once batteries were allowed to power the jump drive, it didn't matter where the energy came from, solar, fission, chemical, or hamster wheel.

 

[whulorigan]

ISTR that in TNE Fire Fusion & Steel there was mention of the use of Homopolar Generators in which energy was stored by spinning-up superdense rotators suspended in a vacuum environment (gravitically I suppose) to immense levels of angular momentum, and then applying a force-field "brake" of some sort to rapidly angularly-decelerate the rotators and covert the angular momentum to the energy/power for the system (whether for jump or something other).

 

[whartung]

My understanding of RL large capacity capacitors is they are ideal for quick charge/discharge, take a lot of punishment and don’t degrade chemically like batteries, but leak power badly and are not ideal for retaining usable amounts for weeks or even days.

That's always been my assumption. That the "jump window" from when you have enough power, and able to actually jump, is limited by the capability of the capacitors to actually hold the charge. And that a primary reason something like solar doesn't work is simply that it's difficult to charge the capacitors faster than they leak it out.

You could overcharge the capacitors. For example, you could charge "Jump 2" capacitors with enough for a "Jump 2", and your "jump window" would be longer for a Jump 1, but it would cost you Jump 2 amount of fuel and work to do so (so nobody does that). And even then, it wouldn't hold it for days. With the jump capacitors you're always filling a leaking bucket.

Mind, if that were the case, then there should be some compensating "discharge" mechanic for the use of Black Globes, since they CAN use Jump capacitors for storage. Maybe there is I haven't checked.

 

[Condottiere]

You'll just need larger solar panels.

 

[Spinward Flow]

then there should be some compensating "discharge" mechanic for the use of Black Globes, since they CAN use Jump capacitors for storage. Maybe there is I haven't checked.

There isn't in LBB5.80.
Jump capacitors hold EPs "indefinitely" under combat conditions (which is all LBB5.80 really cares about in this context. There is no "charge decay over time" mechanic either hinted at or even tangentially suggested. You can INTENTIONALLY discharge the capacitors, up to the EP rate of the power plant during "flicker (off)" phases, but there is no "lose -1EP every X minutes" type of continuous drain/leak mechanic going on.

LBB5.80, p42-43:

THE BLACK GLOBE

Since a black globe absorbs all energy, a ship with its field on is protected from all fire. Unfortunately, the forcefield works in both directions; the ship may not fire, maneuver, or even see out. These limitations would make the black globe of little value in battle if not for the ability of the field generator to flicker— switch the field on and off many times per second— giving the ship part-time protection while still allowing it to fire, maneuver, and track enemy ships during the "off" intervals. A black globe screen's factor is its maximum rate of flicker; a screen may be on up to 10% of the time times its factor. For instance, a screen with a factor of 2 may flicker at a maximum rate of 20%; it is on 20% of the time in every second. In the pre-combat decision step, a player decides the flicker rate of each ship's black globe (if any), which may range from its maximum rate down to zero (off).

Each 10% of flicker acts as two levels of armor, protecting the owning ship and any enemy ship it fires at. For instance, if a ship has a black globe with a factor of 4 operating at the maximum of 40% flicker rate, all damage rolls against the ship will receive a DM of +8, and all damage rolls it inflicts on enemy ships will also have a +8 DM. Unlike normal armor, a black globe also affects meson guns.

Energy striking a black globe screen is diverted to the ship's capacitors. Each ton of capacitors will hold 36 energy points. When the screen is flickering, a percentage of the incoming energy equal to the flicker rate is absorbed. In order to strike the black globe, the weapon must first hit and penetrate all defenses. The amount of energy a weapon transfers depends on its type and factor. Turret and bay weapons inflict a number of energy points equal to their factors times the energy point requirement for one such weapon installed in a turret. Non-nuclear missiles inflict two points times their factor; nuclear missiles inflict 100 points times their factor; meson guns inflict 20 points times their factor. Spinal mount weapons inflict their full energy point requirements. For example, a particle accelerator bay with a factor of 8 would inflict 40 energy points each time it hits and penetrates. If the target ship's black globe is operating at a flicker rate of l0%, the ship's capacitors would absorb 4 energy points.

If a black globe absorbs energy and the ship's capacitors are already full, the ship is destroyed. A ship without additional capacitors installed has capacitors (for the jump drive) equal to 0.5%MJn.

Stored energy may be removed from the capacitors by using it to power the ship. Energy may only leave the ship, however, when the black globe is off (or during the off intervals of its flicker). During aturn, a ship may dispose of its energy from its capacitors equal to the number of points generated by its power plant, minus 10% for every 10% of flicker rate of the black globe screen. For example, if a ship's black globe screen is operating at 60% and its power plant has an output of 1000 EP, 400 EP may be removed from the ship's capacitors that turn.

The screen also affects a ship's ability to maneuver. A ship's agility is reduced by 10% (round fractions to the nearest whole number) for each 10%of flicker rate of its black globe.

Instead of flickering, any black globe may be turned completely on. No enemy fire will affect it, but the ship may not fire or maneuver. While the black globe is on, all enemy fire automatically hits the screen, a?d 100%of its energy is absorbed. No energy may be removed from the ship's capacitors while the screen is on. All fire also automatically hits (although it may not penetrate the ship's defenses) in the first turn after the black globe is turned off.

If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn.

Invisibility: Since a black globe field absorbs all energy, a ship with its field completely on is, at any range over a few kilometers, effectively invisible. In battle this will have no effect, since a ship that suddenly disappears from enemy sensors in this way will have its course predicted on the basis of its last known position; since the ship cannot maneuver while in the field, the prediction will always be correct.

However, the advantages to a fleet which has not yet been detected by the enemy are immense. Suppose, for instance, that a fleet were to jump into a system with its black globes on and its velocity set upon a predetermined course. It could drift unseen past any defending fleet and drop its screens at a preplanned moment, to bombard a planet or to engage enemy fleets by surprise. Further tactical possibilities are left to the imaginations of the referee and players.

One of the side effects of a "no EP losses over time, must consume stored EP to reduce stored EP" interpretations is that it then becomes possible for "jump capacitor powered" small craft to exist. So instead of doing something like power plant + fuel, you instead do power plant + jump capacitors. The result can get rather interesting, especially for extremely tiny small craft that don't need a lot of EP.

For example, a 20 ton fighter equipped with a bridge, model/2 computer (0 EP) and a missile rack (0 EP) would only need 0.2EP per point of Agility (1.2EP=Agility 6, for example). At 36 EP per ton of jump capacitors, a 20 ton fighter could sustain Agility 6 for 30 combat rounds (10 hours) before needing to recharge its jump capacitors ... and a fuel hit "wouldn't do anything" in terms of being able to prevent the fighter from continuing to operate on "battery" power.

Furthermore, note that @ TL=9, a LBB2.81 Power Plant-A costs 4 tons and generates 2EP ... while a LBB5.80 Power Plant-6 costs 3.6 tons and generates 1.2EP ... so there are going to be some edge cases on the diminutive end of the small craft scale where this kind of "capacitor power, rather than fuel power" arrangement can be advantageous if you don't need a tremendous amount of range (such as orbital shuttles). Missile armed fighters will need to return to base for reloads (for example), since their magazine capacity isn't shouldn't be infinite, and they can presumably be repowered while they're being rearmed.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Mind, I've always clung to the notion of Solar Power charging the jump capacitors -- it just takes a really long time. Of course that suggests that the capacitors don't leak, and can hold the charge "long enough". It's just a PRACTICAL matter to charge them as quick as you can, rather than lingering around.

Solar charges batteries, batteries then charge capacitors, which then discharge into the jump drive. Easy, except Traveller's battery tech isn't officially up to it.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Mind, if that were the case, then there should be some compensating "discharge" mechanic for the use of Black Globes, since they CAN use Jump capacitors for storage. Maybe there is I haven't checked.

There isn't. There really ought to be one, though.

 

[Condottiere]

They're grounded through the functional parts of the power plant.

Apparently, if the lanthanum grid is hit by lasers, it can overload the jump drive, and by that, I assume the jump capacitors.

 

[mike wightman]

There is no Lanthanum hull grid (it was a DGPism that disappeared with MT) as has been pointed out many times. Lanthanum is used in the drive coils.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

One of the side effects of a "no EP losses over time, must consume stored EP to reduce stored EP" interpretations is that it then becomes possible for "jump capacitor powered" small craft to exist. So instead of doing something like power plant + fuel, you instead do power plant + jump capacitors. The result can get rather interesting, especially for extremely tiny small craft that don't need a lot of EP.

Or even battle riders that can then be much cheaper...

That loophole was closed by errata:

Consolidated CT Errata 1.2, p17:
_ _ Page 42, The Black Globe, Jump Capacitors (clarification and addition): All jump-capable vessels have capacitors, not just ships with black globes; details for purchasing additional capacitors are already in the rules. Note that only ships with black globes can purchase additional capacitors.
_ _ Energy passes to the jump capacitors (during a combat round) either by the rules for Breaking Off by Jumping or by the rules for black globes absorbing energy. Once energy is in the jump capacitors, it can be used in only two ways: by the rules for Breaking off by Jumping or disposed of through the power plant (as explained in the Black Globes rule). Energy disposed of through a ship’s power plant is not actually used to power the ship; it is eliminated. Capacitors cannot be used to power the ship if the power plant has been disabled; in fact, if the power plant has been disabled, energy in the capacitors cannot be disposed of through the power plant. Of course, if the jump drive has been disabled, the capacitors (including any additional purchased) are disabled as well, and any energy in the capacitors is lost.
_ _ Damage to either the jump drive or the power plant does not affect the energy in the capacitors – no matter how much energy was in the jump capacitors when the jump drive was damaged, that damage does not go into the capacitors or cause them to overload.

 

[Spinward Flow]

That loophole was closed by errata:

Note that only ships with black globes can purchase additional capacitors.
Energy disposed of through a ship’s power plant is not actually used to power the ship; it is eliminated.

There is SO MUCH WRONG encapsulated there that it is simpler to just reject the OPINION of the errata writer outright than to lend any credence to the validity of the opinion.

I'll spare these forums from the refutation argument(s) and leave the exercise to others who might actually care to try.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There is SO MUCH WRONG encapsulated there that it is simpler to just reject the OPINION of the errata writer outright than to lend any credence to the validity of the opinion.

As far as I know the errata is blessed by MWM and hence RAW, if anyone cares...