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General Drop Tank Tender?

Or even battle riders that can then be much cheaper...

That loophole was closed by errata:
I always assumed that discharging the capacitors meant running them through the power distribution subsystem of the power plant while the reactor is powered down- a desperate move given the costly time to power back up.

The alternative I worked out is you could have a feed off the main power plant to the capacitors, then the capacitors could have a backup power distribution system equal to 15% of a PP to designed EP discharge of the TL the ship is at. The capacitors would be in between the PP and the downstream systems, so a risk but also a possibility of banked power or powering a backup Mdrive/computer off them, etc.

The other gotcha I assumed is charged capacitors can detonate if damaged/destroyed like a magazine.

Big stealth advantage for a sneakcraft running off capacitors- same EMF and signature from drives but no reactor heat to vent.
 
I agree with Spinward Flow, the errata is bollocks and the result of the secret squirrel squad not understanding the basics.

I know there is no such thing as thermodynamics in the 57th century but destroying energy???
 
I think a way to reconcile the “only use the power plant to bleed off energy from the capacitors”. could have to to with the “What happens to the waste heat” issue.

Since multi megawatt powered ships would produce a lot of waste heat, they must have some mechanism for dumping that excess energy, that isn’t heat radiators.

So the idea is any spaceship and probably any TL 9+) power plant) has some grav/jumpadjacent mechanism for dumping energy “into the ether”(into gravitational fields or jumpspace, etc.). The power plant’s ability to do that is 100+% of its own output. So the extra capacity to dump waste energy is proportional to the base output of the plant (+%)
 
As far as I know the errata is blessed by MWM and hence RAW, if anyone cares...
Agreed that it's the rules as written.
There is SO MUCH WRONG encapsulated there that it is simpler to just reject the OPINION of the errata writer outright than to lend any credence to the validity of the opinion.

I'll spare these forums from the refutation argument(s) and leave the exercise to others who might actually care to try.
Also agree that it probably wouldn't work like that in the (fictional) "real world".

It's a game balance/setting-detail thing, not a fictional-engineering thing.
 
I think a way to reconcile the “only use the power plant to bleed off energy from the capacitors”. could have to to with the “What happens to the waste heat” issue.

Since multi megawatt powered ships would produce a lot of waste heat, they must have some mechanism for dumping that excess energy, that isn’t heat radiators.
Agreed, presumably there is a way of bleeding away waste heat tied to the power plant, as the power plant defines how much waste heat is produced.

I don't bother with technobabble an explanation...
 
It was kind of necessary, otherwise craft could be permanently powered by launching a few nukes into the black globe...

Black Globes twists physics into a pretzel anyway.
And that is the real reason for the rule change.

Someone spotted you could use capacitors to store energy for combat and thus use full power plant output for agility.

Note it doesn't have to be a black globe, you could have banks of capacitors you charge before combat using the regular power plant.

They didn't want this, so retcon time and to hell with physics, its all space magic anyway.

Personally I would rather they had embraced it and used EPs as a currency during combat
 
Someone spotted you could use capacitors to store energy for combat and thus use full power plant output for agility.
The true edge case there is that you can use capacitors for reserve EP in the event that fuel is depleted but the power plant remains intact. With zero fuel, the power plant shuts down (no EPs being generated), but with "banked" EPs in jump capacitors a craft still has a reserve of EPs to draw upon (for weapons, computer, maneuver) before being rendered helpless and a non-combatant.

The EP budget per combat round still can't be higher than what the power plant can normally produce in a turn, so you can't use the jump capacitors to get "extra" EP higher than your normal EP budget.

If your power plant normally (when it has fuel) generates 10 EP ... if your ship suffers a damage result that loses all fuel, your power plant shuts down (because no fuel) and generates 0 EP from then onwards. But, if you had a 36 EP reserve stored in jump capacitors, your craft would have 10 EP available for 3 combat turns followed by a 4th combat turn of 6 EP before your jump capacitor reserves were exhausted. What you could NOT do would be to have the power plant "run at full blast" generating 10 EP and then use the jump capacitors ON TOP of that to give yourself an EP budget of 11+ per combat round ... THAT is not permitted.

Extending this further, a power plant is "necessary" for EPs stored in jump capacitors to be used at all.

If a craft has a Power Plant Destroyed result (or never had a power plant installed!), then the maximum output of the power plant is 0 EP. Even if you have jump capacitors loaded with EP, if your power plant is capable of generating 0 EP (because it's destroyed, as opposed to simply having run out of fuel) then the EPs "banked" in the jump capacitors are "not available" and cannot be used to power weapons, screens, computers and maneuver (because, Power Plant Destroyed = 0 EP generation capacity). So the power plant is the bottleneck limiter on how quickly jump capacitors can be both charged and discharged for the purposes of anything other than jump.
 
The true edge case there is that you can use capacitors for reserve EP in the event that fuel is depleted but the power plant remains intact. With zero fuel, the power plant shuts down (no EPs being generated), but with "banked" EPs in jump capacitors a craft still has a reserve of EPs to draw upon (for weapons, computer, maneuver) before being rendered helpless and a non-combatant.

The EP budget per combat round still can't be higher than what the power plant can normally produce in a turn, so you can't use the jump capacitors to get "extra" EP higher than your normal EP budget.

If your power plant normally (when it has fuel) generates 10 EP ... if your ship suffers a damage result that loses all fuel, your power plant shuts down (because no fuel) and generates 0 EP from then onwards. But, if you had a 36 EP reserve stored in jump capacitors, your craft would have 10 EP available for 3 combat turns followed by a 4th combat turn of 6 EP before your jump capacitor reserves were exhausted. What you could NOT do would be to have the power plant "run at full blast" generating 10 EP and then use the jump capacitors ON TOP of that to give yourself an EP budget of 11+ per combat round ... THAT is not permitted.

Extending this further, a power plant is "necessary" for EPs stored in jump capacitors to be used at all.

If a craft has a Power Plant Destroyed result (or never had a power plant installed!), then the maximum output of the power plant is 0 EP. Even if you have jump capacitors loaded with EP, if your power plant is capable of generating 0 EP (because it's destroyed, as opposed to simply having run out of fuel) then the EPs "banked" in the jump capacitors are "not available" and cannot be used to power weapons, screens, computers and maneuver (because, Power Plant Destroyed = 0 EP generation capacity). So the power plant is the bottleneck limiter on how quickly jump capacitors can be both charged and discharged for the purposes of anything other than jump.
Exactly which is why my focus has been on the power distribution subsystem as the limiter- and issues with running power through the hull to the systems.
 
Exactly which is why my focus has been on the power distribution subsystem as the limiter- and issues with running power through the hull to the systems.
Agreed.
The way the Black Globe rule is written in LBB5.80, it is abundantly clear (except to Errata Writers™, apparently), that the limiting factor is the Power Plant's (current) maximum output. Having EPs stored in capacitors does not change the "maximum EPs per combat round" budget for a craft. Capacitors are "reserve power" NOT "bonus power" that gets stacked on top of the power plant's output maximum.
 
Agreed.
The way the Black Globe rule is written in LBB5.80, it is abundantly clear (except to Errata Writers™, apparently), that the limiting factor is the Power Plant's (current) maximum output. Having EPs stored in capacitors does not change the "maximum EPs per combat round" budget for a craft. Capacitors are "reserve power" NOT "bonus power" that gets stacked on top of the power plant's output maximum.
Well I give the option of a cheat, but it costs power distribution tonnage and equipment is tied to the capacitor feed side.
 
Depending on how long you can have the batteries store the energy, you could theoretically hook up enough battery storage to charge the jump drive and then use conventional power generators to charge the battery during the jump.

I suspect that the reduced fuel consumption would more than cover the extra fusion plants you would need.
 
Depending on how long you can have the batteries store the energy, you could theoretically hook up enough battery storage to charge the jump drive and then use conventional power generators to charge the battery during the jump.

I suspect that the reduced fuel consumption would more than cover the extra fusion plants you would need.
🤔

In CT, the formula (in LBB5.80) is that you need to spend 2 EP per parsec per 100 tons of starship in order to jump ... and you have a time limit of 2 combat turns to achieve that result.

Thus ... a 100 ton starship with a power plant generating 2 EP per combat turn requires 2 combat turns to generate the 4 EP needed to jump 2 parsecs at the end of 2 combat turns, which will also consume 20 tons of fuel.



One way to rationalize a reduction in fuel consumption needed to jump would be to stipulate that the "within 2 combat rounds" limit on power build up gets ... moved ... to perhaps 3+ combat rounds. In other words, the longer prep time is needed for more fuel efficient jumps.

Using the example from above (and sticking to LBB5.80 for the moment, because that's what I know), a 100 ton starship capable of J2 will have 1 ton of jump capacitors in its jump drive that can store up to 36 EP before a catastrophic failure. If a J2 needs the jump capacitors to be "pre-heated" with 4 EP in preparation to jump before the power plant goes into "overdrive" to generate the necessary power spike in order to jump, that means that there is 32 EP of "headroom" available for the power spike needed in order to jump.

Let's call what the "overdrive to jump" procedure does is a temporary output multiplier, which is very fuel wasteful.
If the temporary output multiplier is functionally 8:1 ... then a 4 EP output power plant would consume 20 tons of fuel in order to generate a surplus of 32 EP in a single combat round, costing 20 tons of fuel ... therefore 2+2+32=36 EP capacity resulting in J2 at the end of the second combat round. This then yields a (combat round relevant) "instantaneous" fuel consumption of 0.625 tons per "overdrive" surplus EP needed to jump at the end of the second combat round.

The constraints around this computation are the fact that the jump capacitors need to be charged to 4 EP within 2 consecutive combat rounds. If the 4 EP can be transferred within a single combat round, then you can jump at the end of combat round 1 without needing to wait for combat round 2.

So what happens if that 2 consecutive combat rounds limit ... gets adjusted? :unsure:
What if with additional technological improvements you're able to "shift" how long you can USEFULLY "pre-heat" your jump capacitors for in preparation to jump ... yielding a reduction in the power spike that your power plant needs to produce?



Using the above assumptions as a baseline to play with ... let's say that an "over tech level" J2 drive can jump after (up to) 4 combat rounds of jump capacitor "pre-heating" in preparation to jump, rather than being "limited" to just 2 combat rounds. 🤔

So now we're able to load 2+2+2+2=8 EP into the jump capacitors using "normal output" levels from the power plant. So now, instead of needing to generate a power spike of 32 EP at the end of combat round 2 in order to jump, the 100 ton starship only needs to generate a power spike of 28 EP at the end of combat round 4 in order to jump.
  • 32 * 0.625 = 20 tons (100% nominal consumption rate)
  • 28 * 0.625 = 17.5 tons (87.5% nominal consumption rate)
Include some "slight inefficiencies" into the jump fuel consumption (when efficient) formula and you wind up with consuming 18 tons (not 17.5) in order to produce 28 EP of power spike output, yielding a 90% of nominal "fuel efficient" consumption rate in order to jump.

So you still need to generate the same amount of power outuput in order to jump, but due to advancing technologies the drives are better able to "load balance" in a way that is more efficient and less wasteful of fuel. However, in order to achieve that outcome (improved jump fuel efficiency) there is a tradeoff ... the "windup" in preparations to jump take longer and power output needs to be "held steady" in preparation to jump for a longer duration. In a military context, where a rapid retreat via breaking off by jumping may be necessary, that requirement for additional time in preparation to jump "efficiently" may not be an option since it could potentially expose a ship to hostile fire for "too long" before it can escape from a battle and retreat into jump space.

Note that such a tradeoff (longer "windup" before jumping in a more fuel efficient manner) can also have implications for civilian merchant operations when there is a risk of being attacked by pirates. 🏴‍☠️

For most civilian merchant ship classes, they won't have much (if any!) surplus power available for maneuvering+defenses while preparing to jump. So when a civilian merchant prepares to jump, they will usually need to divert ALL of their available power plant output into the jump capacitors in preparation to jump for 2 consecutive combat rounds ... during which time, the starship IS VULNERABLE TO ATTACK.

Change that to needing 4 consecutive combat rounds in order to "jump fuel efficiently" and ... you've basically DOUBLED the duration of time the starship IS VULNERABLE TO ATTACK before it can jump ... in a normal space, ship to ship combat kind of way.

Basically, if a pirate is tailing a merchant ship that is outbound for a jump point ... the time to "move in for the kill" is when the merchant ship stops accelerating (major tell!) while keeping its power plant running at 100%. That then signals to the pirate that the merchant ship is now preparing to jump and is least likely to be able to defend itself against attack, due to the power demands needed to "warm up" the jump drive. Even getting the merchant ship to "abort" its attempt to jump by needing to divert power into defensive agility and weapons can prevent a merchant ship from escaping into the safety of jump space.

Do I need to point out that increasing the duration of that vulnerability time before jumping (fuel efficiently) could be consequential? :rolleyes:

Remember, successful pirates are rarely interested in a "fair fight" ... :sneaky:
 
That assumes the power spike alone is what powers the jump. I think it more likely that it’s powering up a surge power plant built in the jump drive that is converting all that fuel into power at several orders of magnitude over the mere jump initiation capacitor charge.
 
Yes, which is why collector powered jump drives needed special accumulators, and why even if you fully charge the jump capacitors you still need you jump fuel load
 
So, I have a basic physics question about drop tanks:

It seems that if a 1000-ton ship with 300-ton drop tanks jumps as a 1000-ton ship, then a 1000-ton ship with 300-ton internal tanks jumps, it should jump as 700 tons. Otherwise, the 1000-ton ship with 300 tons external drop tanks should jump as a 1300-ton ship. I think I have misunderstood the rules as I am unclear if the mass of the jump fuel counts after it's been consumed or not.
 
So, I have a basic physics question about drop tanks:

It seems that if a 1000-ton ship with 300-ton drop tanks jumps as a 1000-ton ship, then a 1000-ton ship with 300-ton internal tanks jumps, it should jump as 700 tons. Otherwise, the 1000-ton ship with 300 tons external drop tanks should jump as a 1300-ton ship. I think I have misunderstood the rules as I am unclear if the mass of the jump fuel counts after it's been consumed or not.
Drop tanks may be ejected just prior to Jump, and the Jump is then performed at the lower tonnage of the ship's hull rather than the hull plus the tanks.

They may optionally be retained, in which case the Jump is then performed at the combined tonnage of the hull plus the tanks.

There is currently no option for collapsible external tanks, which is what I think you're describing (burn fuel, fold tanks, keep tanks for next time, jump at hull tonnage only).

Drive performance is calculated based on volume, rather than mass.

It's a simplification for game purposes.
 
That assumes the power spike alone is what powers the jump. I think it more likely that it’s powering up a surge power plant built in the jump drive that is converting all that fuel into power at several orders of magnitude over the mere jump initiation capacitor charge.
IMO and IMTU (though this fits LBB2 Jump drives better, it can be adapted to LBB5 and later rules in spirit if not actual hardware):

1. Jump drives (per LBB5'81) include 0.5% of hull tonnage per Jn of Jump Capacitors. These capacitors hold 36EP/Td; that is, 18EP/Jn per 100Td.
1a. This is solely to initiate the jump.

2. An additional 2.75Td*pn (LBB2) or 0.275%/Jn of fuel (LBB5) and a power plant that can turn it into power is needed to complete the 1-week Jump with an allowance for a +10% duration variance. This is because power plant fuel burn rate for starships is the same as for non-starships; thus, the power plant must be running throughout the duration of the Jump -- and is required to do so for some reason. MgT requires a lot less than 1EP constant output during Jump -- all that's needed is basic overhead power.

3. The 2EP per Jn required by LBB5'81 to Jump is far less than the 18EP per Jn that the Jump Capacitors can hold. This requires some assumptions to parse.
3a. As per 1a., Jump initiation requires a total of 18EP/Jn, to be accumulated during the 1000 seconds (LBB2'81 -- with the EPs not actually being counted in that system) or 20-40 minutes (LBB5'80) immediately prior to Jump.
3b. The remaining EP come from the fuel burned in the Jump Drive's internal reactor (LBB2) or the power plant run at overload levels (LBB5 and later). This is extremely inefficient, and includes fuel dumped past the reactor but not burned, as an open-loop cooling system -- which is why LBB5 requires the jump fuel too even if the power is coming from black-globe-charged capacitors.
3c. The reason (IMO) for needing EP from the power plant is that the output of the Jump Drive's reactor (or power plant running in overload mode), is somewhat unpredictable. The fast burn could be used to provide all the EPs needed to charge the jump capacitors, but there's a high probability that it would provide up to 12.5% more EPs than the capacitors can hold, and cannot be throttled. And, overcharging jump capacitors leads to unpleasant consequences. So, the fast-burn reaction is calibrated to provide 89% of the required power as a minimum, and the more-easily throttled main power plant provides the variable remainder (0-11%)
 
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Drop tanks may be ejected just prior to Jump, and the Jump is then performed at the lower tonnage of the ship's hull rather than the hull plus the tanks.

They may optionally be retained, in which case the Jump is then performed at the combined tonnage of the hull plus the tanks.

There is currently no option for collapsible external tanks, which is what I think you're describing (burn fuel, fold tanks, keep tanks for next time, jump at hull tonnage only).

Drive performance is calculated based on volume, rather than mass.

It's a simplification for game purposes.
But if the gas/fuel is consumed, there is no volume or mass. The drop tank bags would have collapsed. But I can see if it's based on volume rather than mass, the rules would work as they do.

But, that opens the door to massively overloading ships with high-density cargo, if the mass doesn't matter, you can fill that 14 cubic meter per ton cargo bay with lead, which will weigh 158.8 tons (https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight). That seems wrong also.
 
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