Economics of a Mercenary Campaign

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:
the "one ticket a month" idea is a VERY bad one for any non-specialized units.

it limits one to a 2J6 range absolute, and probably 2J4 realistic range, or 1J4 with two weeks on station.

If one has a short-term mission ops specialty, one can expect tickets to be fairly rare, a few a year.

Absolutely. And one ticket per month is definitely unlikely. However a reasonable frequency has to be calculated based on the Traveller Universe being played in, to determine what a ticket should pay.

If one has mid-term (4-12 month) deployments, however, one can not afford to keep integral transports waiting, but the logistics costs of moving become significantly less important as well.

At long term rates (a year or longer), integral transport costs more to keep than it saves, unless the mission calls for said transports.

Actually I seriously disagree with both of these statements.

First if you are using standard transports for the bulk of your transport fleet you can always have them work commercially during longer deployments to cover their costs. Depending on this organization of transports if you have a speciality ship such as a Javelin or Broadsword, supported by 2-3 SubLiners, then you put the liners to work commercially while you are on a long term deployment and use your specialized ship for logistics. The majority of tickets are handled on worlds where the local tech level can not keep a Mercenary Unit supplied in ammunition, spare parts and major end items. Someone needs to Pick up and deliver, sometimes into a hot LZ these supplies. Further while you can recruit locally to make up personnel losses, training them while you are underfire is less likely to succeed than training them someplace else and bringing them in. Further it is easier to train people that are from a system whose Tech Level is equal or greater than the Tech Level of the equipment you are using. So for the Lift Infantry Unit I posted earlier, you would want to set up recruiting and training on a TL12+ world and then bring in trained replacements. It would give you a chance, on a long deployment, to rotate personnel out of a combat zone, get them some R&R and in that time frame, they can handle training of new recruits, and bring them back to the combat zone, again, possibly entering a hot LZ.

For a quieter mission this might not be significant, but for actual sustained combat missions, this type of thing going on during the mission, without disrupting the mission is vital.

For your examples, as stated earlier Type R's are virtually useless to Mercenary operations. They are virtually limited to a sector Main, and you will be limited to your Mercenary unit operating in a single small cluster. Further regular resupply is impossible unless the Unit's Tech Level is equal to or lower than the local system Tech Level.

I personally don't see many mercenary units sitting on their butts to get paid. After all without some religous, or other similar restriction on the local planet, that is what that planet pays an Army for. Low risk, low pay jobs will not keep the unit supplied or show a profit anyway.

 

[sid6.7]

oh i dont know if its wise for your ship(s)
to leave you incase of evac...waiting could
easily be part of the operating costs for
a ticket and standard policy.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
oh i dont know if its wise for your ship(s)
to leave you incase of evac...waiting could
easily be part of the operating costs for
a ticket and standard policy.

Except that with the exception of EA6 none of the current canon tickets even pretend to cover the cost of organic starships or even crew salaries. (Even in situations where the boat is expected to be hazarded.)

 

[sid6.7]

isnt that more like it doesnt say YES or NO
so we assume NO? and you mean the 5 tickets
in LBB 4 right? or is there another book your
looking at?

if you mean those 5 tickets that could easily
be assumed to be part of the "success" end of
your ticket or "upfront" end or the ticket.


i still dont think a merc running his "own"
ships would send them offworld on a commerical
trip while war is going on, they would always
have a ship(s) standing off somewhere for evac
purposes. i would think you would lose your
ability to recruit men if you did. Now if
your client is providing the ships that might be
different unless of course your providing the ship
crew also?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
isnt that more like it doesnt say YES or NO
so we assume NO? and you mean the 5 tickets
in LBB 4 right? or is there another book your
looking at?

if you mean those 5 tickets that could easily
be assumed to be part of the "success" end of
your ticket or "upfront" end or the ticket.

Actually looking at LBB4, 76 Patrons, Adventure 7 (Broadsword), EA6, EA7 and a couple of other canon sources I have peeked at, but I can't place this afternoon, it is the cost of running the unit and profit margin, vs. the cost of the ships that say that the tickets do not pay enough to cover the cost of inherent ships.

i still dont think a merc running his "own"
ships would send them offworld on a commerical
trip while war is going on, they would always
have a ship(s) standing off somewhere for evac
purposes. i would think you would lose your
ability to recruit men if you did. Now if
your client is providing the ships that might be
different unless of course your providing the ship
crew also?

It would of course depend on the nature of the ticket and the location of the ticket vs. location of the nearest source of supply and recruiting effort. Further if you have to evac a Sub Liner isn't really equipped to pull troops out of a hot LZ. If your Merchant transports are plying the local systems, they can also carry a Marketing agent aboard to help drum up business for the next ticket. Further it keeps the ships out of harms way, so they don't get hit as part of the conflict.

Obviously for a hit and run raid, leave the ships local.

 

[atpollard]

Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it.

Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it.

Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports. </font>[/QUOTE]In CT expenses on a 200 dTon liner are greater than 250 thousand credits per month.

The revenue is less than 200 thousand credits per month.

They can't be too small.

 

[sid6.7]

sid's slammers a small platoon(48 men)
operating on a Class(M)merchant: yes
you can suqeeze that many onto a class M
if you press the ship crew into 2 per
room.

getting everything cost 10,426,470 up front


monthly expenses are about 1,466,025 including
ship stuff.

this doesnt included MORE ammo or damages
to the troopers equipment that need repair

so i'd say i wouldnt look at anything LESS
then 3 million for a 30 day ticket...thats
going back to my 5-100% of expenses for the
profit side of the ticket...

you were talking companys so tickets would have
to be even larger then that...like 3 to 4 times.

i included a heli a AFV 3 different light weapons
and EVERYTHING i could scrap out per man from
LBB 1-4, even if it was useless ...

a typical man had:

ACR and 400 rounds
bayonet
knife
flak jacket
2 man tent
3 grenades
pistol and 60 rounds
compass
watch
handcuffs
flashlight
30 days of feild rations

some had:
hand computers
cutlass instead of knife
binocs
guass or PMGP rifle + 200rnd instead of ACR

if you want my sheet to check my numbers
i'll email it to you...but i think its ball
park enough...you want at LEAST dbl your monthly
expenses for whatever ticket...

 

[sid6.7]

oh i forgot......client resources

one way to see what a ticket might look like
is to look at the GDP or the world or country
or company...

a world the size of ours might spend 2% of its GDP
on military type stuff...look at the CIA world factbook for info...

the USA does 4% of its GDP being a single country...

Boeing Co.(where i use to work)
at my site they had like 2 guards
per shift for 800 employees, so
since i dont know the wages of everyone
lets say 8 guards per 800 or 1% of that
sites resources went to the "security"
for THAT site......

lets say 1.5% for uniforms,guns,video,gates

---------

in the one example ticket LBB4 its says something
like 40+ billion in GDP for the client...

so 2% = 800 millionISH for "security"
and 4% = 1.6 billionISH
and 1.5% = 600 millionISH

i'm sure with all of the above they could
squeak out 5-10 million for an "operation"...

-------

lets say its a small mining company with
10 million GDP....they might have:

at 2% they have 200k in security funds
at 4% they have 400k
at 1.5% they have 150k....

your probably looking at them only being able to
afford 1-2 (4)man team(s) TOPs....and they could
probably give yah middle or low passage on
a trader(round trip)....

if you pro rate a veh. for use like an AFV
to see some of the cost that would be 30K
just like a ship 1/240th...

1 (4) man team might cost you 50k or so
so your pushing 100k for expenses out of
200k or 400k or 150k....

so the 150k job might not be a good idea
the 200k might be okay...but the 400k job
would be pertty doable...i would think...

 

[aramis]

Given that Type R's with demountable Staterooms and demountable J2 tanks is quite able to make it off main. And it's canonical that it can, "In Search of Longer Legs", in The Traveller Adventure.

Owning the transports is not the same as having them be integral. Integral means, in this context, fully part of the unit, not part-timers.

A 400 Td ship is the largest that can routinely fill out under Bk2 given strict interpretations of the wordings, assuming trader=ship. (I've never considered the trader in that passage to refer to the ship, always to a person engaging in trade....)

Now, it's quite possible to build a J2 liner with demountable tankage for the second parsec (it costs a mere 4 tons, and 16 MCr... an extra 67KCr/month... but it gives a large bay, and makes a subsidy ship worthy of a mercenary unit subsidy.

Personally, I shoot for units to ask triple daily costs, +ammo and transport, and 1/10th combat equipment costs... generally, employers offer twice salaries and 1/10th combat equipment costs.

The reasons for not using locals in the army role:
</font>

• "instant experience"</font>
• "Not Us"</font>
• "We can't train fast enough"</font>
• Dealing with some untoward caste</font>
• have to keep the army troops ready for deployment off world</font>
• Enforcing unpopular rules</font>
• Don't want to pay veterans compensation</font>

Instant Experience: you hire mercs for the veterans who are already trained and experienced. Lining up mercs on your border, especially if they have "known units" in the vanguard, is psychological warfare of the highest form.

Not Us: Many societies will gleefully expend mercenaries simply to not send their own citizens off to battle. France comes to mind, with the Legion Etrangier... which has mostly foreigners in service to france, and was until recently (mid 20th C), still technically a mercenary unit. My understanding is that they have been absorbed into the French Army, but not fully integrated.

We can't train fast enough: It's been said that molding soldiers takes 6 months. If you can get a unit on-station in a month, a 3-9 month mercenary deployment to cover training up your own forces. Using the Bk 4 instruction rules, this is a reasonable timeframe, too.

Dealing with the awkward caste: in some cases, it may be a religious requirement to not engage in warfare by some caste or against some caste. In such cases, Mercenaries are a viable alternative in many such systems.

Have to keep the army ready to deploy: Just because your army is present doesn't mean you can use it as you want. Canon implies that local armies are the basis of the Imperial Army. You may have obligations for significant units.

Enforcing Unpopular Rules: In some societies, certain rules are seen as needed but unwelcome. Outsiders may be more willing to actually enforce these rules than locals.

Don't want to pay veterans compensation: This is most likely in rule of law type governments. Citizens might be willing, but the long term costs may far outweigh the costs of hiring mercenaries short term. Even so, many worlds will have term-contracts of several years... hiring mercs for a year or two is worth it if saves paying the same number of troops for 4 to 6 years...

Long term mercs make sense... in many cases. Not most, but many. In some cultures, for example, a Mennonite or equivalent population, hiring Mercs to meet your army commitment is a far better deal than forcing members of the Ordinum to go and commit sins.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it.

Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports. </font>[/QUOTE]In CT expenses on a 200 dTon liner are greater than 250 thousand credits per month.

The revenue is less than 200 thousand credits per month.

They can't be too small. </font>[/QUOTE]What is a 200 ton liner? The Free Trader, (at 200 tons) makes its expenses traveling at 80% capacity hauling freight. The Far Trader can not. The Subsidized Merchant can make a profit, (400 Tons, J-1). Anything bigger can't stay at or above 80% capacity using the standard tables. Anything J-2 and above isn't profitable using standard tables.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Sid: 48 is a medium to large platoon compared to most canon sources. But the numbers look about right.

You can also convert some of that 129 +/- tons of cargo into additional staterooms. I do figure that a Type M is about right per platoon. However if I was going to deal with just a platoon, since you are dealing with only one ship, that ship should probably be either a Javelin, a Broadsword, or equivalent. Mostly because they carry small craft to put the Platoon down or pick it up from a hot LZ. A Liner doesn't include much in the way of getting to and from the surface.

I do agree that around 600 tons per Platoon seems about right for most platoons.

I tend to field more expensive units because on most worlds in the OTU the atmosphere isn't breathable, so Combat Armor becomes the order of the day. (Which significantly increases your costs.) Further Helicopters don't work on over 60% of the main worlds in the OTU. (Forget about things like working the orbitals, secondary planets, asteroid belts, etc. (Which is also why I tend towards light infantry instead of mech infantry, and support them with Light fighters instead of Tanks.) I personally would never design a unit around less than a Combat Environment Suit as standard Uniform. Troops are expensive, protect them.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Given that Type R's with demountable Staterooms and demountable J2 tanks is quite able to make it off main. And it's canonical that it can, "In Search of Longer Legs", in The Traveller Adventure.

Yes, a Type R can go two parsecs, with demountable tanks.

However given the high travel times you are still limiting yourself to a very small area of operations. Your tickets will run 2-3 months between them just to work a subsector with a main in it. Further while a Jump-2 ship can reach most systems in a typical Sector, it does take a while and usually a longer route to get there. A Jump 3 ship can typically get to every system in a typical sector, obviously working the Great Rift is excluded.

) It can also usually take the shortest distance to the next system where there is a ticket. To work a medium populated subsector, even without a main in it, you can get between most worlds in 2-3 weeks.

Owning the transports is not the same as having them be integral. Integral means, in this context, fully part of the unit, not part-timers.

I don't see the difference. The expenses of the ships still have to be met, and calculated. None of the canon tickets take the expenses of owning a ship into account.

A 400 Td ship is the largest that can routinely fill out under Bk2 given strict interpretations of the wordings, assuming trader=ship. (I've never considered the trader in that passage to refer to the ship, always to a person engaging in trade....)

That depends on the jump capacity. A Liner can typically travel at 80+% capacity, same as a Fat Trader, but yes that range of capacity is about the limit of what can travel mostly full. (Though a liner can't make its expenses, even if it travels at 100% capacity.)

Now, it's quite possible to build a J2 liner with demountable tankage for the second parsec (it costs a mere 4 tons, and 16 MCr... an extra 67KCr/month... but it gives a large bay, and makes a subsidy ship worthy of a mercenary unit subsidy.

This confused me, though that is easily accomplished. Did you mean that you could build a Jump 2 Subsidized Merchant? Wouldn't that be 44 tons? (Including the tanks.)

Personally, I shoot for units to ask triple daily costs, +ammo and transport, and 1/10th combat equipment costs... generally, employers offer twice salaries and 1/10th combat equipment costs.

But how are you calculating the units daily costs?

The reasons for not using locals in the army role:
</font>

• "instant experience"</font>
• "Not Us"</font>
• "We can't train fast enough"</font>
• Dealing with some untoward caste</font>
• have to keep the army troops ready for deployment off world</font>
• Enforcing unpopular rules</font>
• Don't want to pay veterans compensation</font>

I amnot saying that long term tickets don't exist. Nor am I going to say that there won't be cushy mercenary jobs out there. However most worlds that are going to rely on Mercenary Units instead of main force military units, are not going to hire them to sit around, they will hire them only when they need them, only when the fecal matter impacts the rotating propeller.

If they decide to use Mercenaries before they need them they will typically be in unit sizes that are too small to actually accomplish what needs to be done if the fecal matter impacts...

They will hire a Platoon where a Company+ should be employed, a Company where a Batalion+ should be employed, etc.

Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?

To land that kind of contract, the unit will have to have a solid reputation and either seriously underbid the unit that currently has that contract or discredit and/or destroy the unit that currently has the contract, without having that tied to you. (And then avoid another unit doing the same to you.)

 

[sid6.7]

yes i do have combat "clothes" included in the inital
10+ million setup buy. typically(for me) i would
head for classic temperate planet tickets.
not saying that there would be work there VS
extreme atmo's planets...just less to worry about
tech. wise and cost wise....

 

[sid6.7]

Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?

ummm i think that would be the adventure its SUPOSE
to be a cakewalk sec. job...but WHAMO....

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?

ummm i think that would be the adventure its SUPOSE
to be a cakewalk sec. job...but WHAMO.... </font>[/QUOTE]Which is fine once in a great while, not on a regular basis. Normally missions have to run according to how the ticket specifies. (Not saying that there wouldn't be surprises, but not the whole mission going to crap like that.)

 

[atpollard]

A 400 dTon ship with a few points of starship armor and 4 tripple turrets integrated with its unit would make a heck of a gun platform for support. Huey's eat your heart out.

Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc?

 

[Pickles]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Normally missions have to run according to how the ticket specifies. (Not saying that there wouldn't be surprises, but not the whole mission going to crap like that.)

What! You mean it's not normal to wipe out half your platoon, lose three very expensive robotic MRLs and get cheated out of your pay by a renegade patron every mission?

Dammit, where's that referee now ... that's two years of fraudulent gaming he owes me ...

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by atpollard:
A 400 dTon ship with a few points of starship armor and 4 tripple turrets integrated with its unit would make a heck of a gun platform for support. Huey's eat your heart out.

Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc?

The more important questions are:

+ Do they come with doorgunners laying down covering fire

+ Do they come with Stereos blasting "Ride of the Valkiries" or "Paint it black"

+ Do Vagrs surf?