TY Tom. If I understood well it, it's the same I was suggesting, just better expressed.
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Errata - that difficult subject
- Thread starter vraymond
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TY Tom. If I understood well it, it's the same I was suggesting, just better expressed.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Howdy again McPerth,
I got the impression that your suggestion was similar, however I like to be sure that I have the process down. I'm also trying to see if I can make the process clearer than the details in TNE FF&S.
Have a good one.
I got the impression that your suggestion was similar, however I like to be sure that I have the process down. I'm also trying to see if I can make the process clearer than the details in TNE FF&S.
Have a good one.
Control panel mysteries again:
MegaTrav Referee's Manual, section 8: Bridge
"Determine the number of control points required using the following formula:
CP = (Pr/100000) x TL
CP = Control Points Pr = Price. TL = Tech level of the craft.
Section Control Points: Determine the control points required by each of the 8 following sections: Hull [well, not any more], Power Supply, Locomotion, Communications, Sensors, Weapons, Screens, Environment Control."
So, TL of the ... craft? That's making for some big headaches:
TL13 beam laser costs a million credits, so it needs 130 control points at TL 13 - and 150 at TL 15? Even though it does exactly the same thing?
A 100t ship's 2g maneuver drive requires 5 thruster units, at a cost of Cr3,500,000 at TL 11. That's 385 control points at TL 11 - and 525 at TL15, even though the drive is identical and performs exactly the same.
I realize it adds a bit more complication, but there are points where it makes more sense to calculate control point needs based on the TL of the system rather than the ship it's in. Otherwise identical ships of different tech level end up needing more control panels for identical drives and weapons just 'cause one has a better power plant than the other. Bit of a headache on the smaller ships.
MegaTrav Referee's Manual, section 8: Bridge
"Determine the number of control points required using the following formula:
CP = (Pr/100000) x TL
CP = Control Points Pr = Price. TL = Tech level of the craft.
Section Control Points: Determine the control points required by each of the 8 following sections: Hull [well, not any more], Power Supply, Locomotion, Communications, Sensors, Weapons, Screens, Environment Control."
So, TL of the ... craft? That's making for some big headaches:
TL13 beam laser costs a million credits, so it needs 130 control points at TL 13 - and 150 at TL 15? Even though it does exactly the same thing?
A 100t ship's 2g maneuver drive requires 5 thruster units, at a cost of Cr3,500,000 at TL 11. That's 385 control points at TL 11 - and 525 at TL15, even though the drive is identical and performs exactly the same.
I realize it adds a bit more complication, but there are points where it makes more sense to calculate control point needs based on the TL of the system rather than the ship it's in. Otherwise identical ships of different tech level end up needing more control panels for identical drives and weapons just 'cause one has a better power plant than the other. Bit of a headache on the smaller ships.
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By the way, the formula can be presented more simply: (Price in MCr) x 10 x TL.
This CP increase is why, in MT, you try to build at the lowest TL in each section that you can afford. For a TL15 craft, your Hull is bought at TL14 (the TL of the BSD hull), unless you NEED a TL15 hull treatment. Your computer and electronics will often be bought at TL12 for civil craft... because you don't need the extra channels on a merchantman, and TL12 computers can support J4 ships.
Your MD can be TL12, too, and that allows J3... as well, so you build the drives as TL12 or lower. (Never below 11, tho, unless you like being stuck without maneuver past 10 diameters.)
This CP increase is why, in MT, you try to build at the lowest TL in each section that you can afford. For a TL15 craft, your Hull is bought at TL14 (the TL of the BSD hull), unless you NEED a TL15 hull treatment. Your computer and electronics will often be bought at TL12 for civil craft... because you don't need the extra channels on a merchantman, and TL12 computers can support J4 ships.
Your MD can be TL12, too, and that allows J3... as well, so you build the drives as TL12 or lower. (Never below 11, tho, unless you like being stuck without maneuver past 10 diameters.)
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Morning Aramis,
Why not just multiply Pr by 1/100,000 = 0.00001 instead of changing the Pr from Cr to MCr?
This changes the formula to CP = Pr x 0.00001 x TL
From Carlobrand's example at TL 13 Beam Laser has a CP of Pr 1,000,000 x 0.00001 x 13 = 10 x 13 = 130.
From the material I've reversed engineered both civilian and military have used the best TL available.
Historically speaking most advances in military material have been made from developments made in the civilian world.
Thanks for distracting the web gremlins from me they changed JD to MD.
Why not just multiply Pr by 1/100,000 = 0.00001 instead of changing the Pr from Cr to MCr?
This changes the formula to CP = Pr x 0.00001 x TL
From Carlobrand's example at TL 13 Beam Laser has a CP of Pr 1,000,000 x 0.00001 x 13 = 10 x 13 = 130.
From the material I've reversed engineered both civilian and military have used the best TL available.
Historically speaking most advances in military material have been made from developments made in the civilian world.
Thanks for distracting the web gremlins from me they changed JD to MD.
Because most of the design system is best rendered in MCr rather than Cr. And much of it is rendered in MCr.
Okay, but the rules stipulate using the tech level of the craft, not the section. The question is, given the odd effects this has (for example, the maneuver drive requiring more control panels because it's put in a higher-tech ship), should this be considered errata and some alternate method - such as your section idea - implemented instead?
And too, there are some quirks within some of the sections. For example, the control panel equation for the power section would include not only the power plant but also things like the solar cells and the fuel cells. One wonders why a solar cell - which can sit on your roof with minimal need for control systems - needs control panels.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Evening Aramis,
Thanks for the reply.
Apparently my hard and electronic copies of the Referee's Manual are different from yours since I see that a majority of the tables or text list prices in Cr.
Tables with limited space either has the price in KCr or MCr.
Hull tables have Vehicle Cr, Small craft KCr, and Space/Star craft MCr
Power Supply tables Cr
Locomotion Tables or Text Cr
Comm Systems Cr
Sensor/Electronics tables or text Cr
Weapons: Spinal mounts and armed bays MCr, everything else is in Cr
Screens MCr
Just in the items I listed above I see Cr being in the majority. For example Point Defense Targeting at TL 9 is 2,000,000.
Adding the zeros to KCr and MCr is, at least for me easier, the dividing every Cr by 1,000,000.
Thanks for the reply.
Apparently my hard and electronic copies of the Referee's Manual are different from yours since I see that a majority of the tables or text list prices in Cr.
Tables with limited space either has the price in KCr or MCr.
Hull tables have Vehicle Cr, Small craft KCr, and Space/Star craft MCr
Power Supply tables Cr
Locomotion Tables or Text Cr
Comm Systems Cr
Sensor/Electronics tables or text Cr
Weapons: Spinal mounts and armed bays MCr, everything else is in Cr
Screens MCr
Just in the items I listed above I see Cr being in the majority. For example Point Defense Targeting at TL 9 is 2,000,000.
Adding the zeros to KCr and MCr is, at least for me easier, the dividing every Cr by 1,000,000.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Evening Carlobrand,
I've started a reply several times and dumped them. Basically MT, like CT Striker Book 2, some items have been over simplified to make some steps quicker to calculate.
Personally I don't buy that all the Beam Laser regardless of TL are going to have the same price.
I've started a reply several times and dumped them. Basically MT, like CT Striker Book 2, some items have been over simplified to make some steps quicker to calculate.
Personally I don't buy that all the Beam Laser regardless of TL are going to have the same price.
I guess the fact of computing you CP needs for the whole craft is mostly to simplify the computing over counting each system ant its TL.
I also assume that if you build a TL 15 ship most its components are built at TL 15, even if the component has no game differences with a TL 13 one.
If we begin to count the TL of each component then we begin to raise more questions and th complexity of the game:
-can some components of the ship be overhauled in this TL 12 planet, while the hull and other components cannot (as your ship is TL15, but you have J3 capability and your computer is just a model 6)?
-can the drives of J3 (so TL 12) be controled by holodynamic linked controls (TL13 themselves)?
-if you use TL12 CPs computing for the drives of your J3 TL 15 ship, but you have a TL 14 computer (so you need less CPs), how does that affect the engineering crew needs?
-...
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True, but also says that CPs are Price/100000 * craft TL. I see nowere where talks about TL being counted by section...
Agreed, it greatly simplifies things. It's just triggering some counterintuitive things, like me having to recalculate my control panels when I push a craft up a tech level. Minor issue - even a plus - when I'm trying to design a battleship. Bit of a headache when I'm trying to design a battery-powered grav truck: I kick it up for better batteries, suddenly I need more panels for the propulsion system.
It'd be easier if they let you calculate per component for vehicles, at least.
I think some of your cited instances are off-base, but I think your core concern is valid.
The repair/overhaul rules are at risk for complication no matter what one says about control panel needs. It's hard to argue your TL15 ship with TL11 maneuver drives and TL13 control panels needs a TL15 world for repairs to the maneuver drive unless the hull has to be cut to get at it. Since the rules give authority to the referee to make "exceptions," the door is already open for confusion on that front. Altering the control panel rules doesn't change that.
I'm not seeing the issue at all with TL12 jumpers being controlled by TL13 panels. Not clear on how the core question affects this.
Yup, here is where the problems start. Engineering crew is calculated by section CP needs. Suddenly we're calculating one figure for the TL11 maneuver drive, another for the TL12 jump drive, and crew calculation just got a bit more complicated. Not bad enough to be impossible, but it certainly made a complicated process just a bit more complicated.
On the flip side, gunners are also calculated by section CP needs. Bumping a ship up a TL means more gunners for the same gun - which is acceptable in a large warship with the best computer and sensors available, less so if you're a small merchantman using whatever meets the basic need at the lowest cost. All other things being equal, your TL12 merchantman needs a third more gunners than a TL9 merchantman with the same guns, computer, sensors and chances of hitting. You can reduce that with a better computer, but that means added cost. Almost looks like the rules were being written by some union rep.
The design sequence was optimized for big warships. It runs into mines when it starts working at the other end of the spectrum. I think we need to set some point - say under 1000 dTons, certainly under 100 dTons - where it is permissible to calculate by component.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Copy and paste from electronic copy of MT Referee's Manual page 81 modified by Consolidated MT Errata v 2.20 9/01/11
2 Control Points
Determine the number of control points required using the following formula:
CP = (Pr/100000) x TL
CP= Control Points. Pr= Price. TL= Tech level of the craft.
Section Control Points: Determine the control points required by each of the 8 following sections: Power Supply. Locomotion. Communications. Sensors. Weapons. Screens. Environment Control
Oops I did not have enough coffee this morning, of course I had to wait because I had a power outage, so I missed the whole mention of craft and section.
Sorry, about that.
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Which in total means that you calculate for each section - because that number will later be used for crew calculations - but that your calculation is based on the tech level of the craft.
True, but counting different TLs for different components, instead of the whole craft, do alter them (see below also).
Nevertheless, I must admit, IIRC, there's a Fiery class CE description in some MT magazine (I think to remember a MT journal, but not sure) were it was told that the fact of some components (fusion turrets instead of PA ones) ease the maintenance and repair at lower TL planets, something good in the troubled space of the Rebellion (and more so in HT). Of course this goes against my point...
I'll try to explain myself:
you could now, at TL (aprox) 8 build a ford T (aprox TL5, I guess), and even use for it the electronic controls most cars today have, as you mimic a TL5 engine for it, but you build it at TL8, but, if you take a ford T original engine to put on it, could you also control it with those same electronic controls?
As I told, I guess the TL15 ship, even with TL12 components, builds those components at TL15 with some modifications that have no game impact, but are there (materials, electronics, etc...), so being in fact TL15 items. If you use a true TL12 component, it might not be prepared for TL15 (13+, in game terms) controls. To keep the analogy with the ford T built at TL8, surely the engine would be built with better materials, and possibly with more modern controls, so I don't believe it could be seen as a TL5 item, even though the basic ford T is.
Well, as I said, I tried to explain myself, not sure I achieved my goal
...snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Sorry about that I was still half a sleep and was still waiting on the coffee to finish brewing.
...I'll try to explain myself:
you could now, at TL (aprox) 8 build a ford T (aprox TL5, I guess), and even use for it the electronic controls most cars today have, as you mimic a TL5 engine for it, but you build it at TL8, but, if you take a ford T original engine to put on it, could you also control it with those same electronic controls?
Ummm ... I don't know. I'm halfway competent with cars, but they've never been a passion for me. I think it depends on what we're counting as control panel elements. The Model T, if I recall, started life with some sort of manual crank ignition, infamous for occasionally breaking a person's wrist. Trying to rig it up to start on a key is doable but involves considerable modification. Is that something like what you're alluding to?
...
As I told, I guess the TL15 ship, even with TL12 components, builds those components at TL15 with some modifications that have no game impact, but are there (materials, electronics, etc...), so being in fact TL15 items. If you use a true TL12 component, it might not be prepared for TL15 (13+, in game terms) controls. To keep the analogy with the ford T built at TL8, surely the engine would be built with better materials, and possibly with more modern controls, so I don't believe it could be seen as a TL5 item, even though the basic ford T is.
Well, as I said, I tried to explain myself, not sure I achieved my goal
I get you. Was a time when the housing industry switched to aluminum wiring. Not a bad idea if everything is to that spec - but it wasn't. Came to find out that when you hooked up the aluminum wiring to the typically not-aluminum outlets and switches, the connection points were ticking time bombs: they'd degenerate over time, eventually reaching a point where they'd produce a lot of heat and start fires.
It's not inconceivable that engineering solutions of different tech levels - like maybe the introduction of a cheap but durable wire made of some mysterious plastic with conductive properties - might be either incompatible with each other or require more adaptation than was worth the effort. Similarly, a Ford-T engine made from superdense metal and ever-smooth frictionless future-ceramic might not be a Ford-T engine that a TL5 mechanic could easily repair, for all that it weighed about the same and had the same power output.
Thing is, the rules now permit you to attach TL13 control panels to a TL12 jump drive - or at least there's no obvious difference between a jump-3 drive produced by a TL12 factory a jump-3 drive produced by a TL13 factory. One could imagine differences that wouldn't be obvious on the game scale but might be very important to the mechanic working "under the hood", but some technology doesn't change a lot over time and some does, so it's hard to argue when you'd declare a difference verses when you'd say they're just using different manufacturing techniques to end up with the same piece of equipment.
In game terms, there's nothing saying the ship built entirely to TL12 specs at a TL15 port needs to be serviced at TL15 ports because of differences in manufacturing. In a nutshell, there's nothing in canon that says there is - or there isn't - a difference, so which way you fell on the issue would be an IMTU decision.
Quick Opinion: I prefer computing CP by section, or if you have a spreadsheet, by component. Rebellion Sourcebook has the Voroshilef-Class BB with a Disintegrator-A installed. Was the entire TL-13 ship rewired with TL-17 components? I don't think so. TL-17 controls would be used for the Disintegrator and TL-15 controls for the upgraded powerplant.
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