Can we get Marc to approve this for inclusion in DonM's Errata?
... then we will have 'official' rules for parking an air/raft (a largely overlooked area in the game).
Errata - that difficult subject
- Thread starter vraymond
- Start date
... then we will have 'official' rules for parking an air/raft (a largely overlooked area in the game).
But fateful is automatic mishap if failed, so we have a task that is at once no mishap, even with a 2 and sure mishap is failed...
I guess the superficial mishap (in this case a fine of let's say 1d6+Law level * 10 Cr) if the task is failed could be in order, representing that the mishap is automatic (fateful) but never damaging (safe).
I disagree as the RAW definitely states that a fumble mishap is treated as superficial when using a 'safe' task.
The real issue is a lack of coherent info in the RAW.
There are 3 levels of failure, 'failure', 'exceptional failure', and 'fumble'.
There are 3 levels of danger, 'safe', 'standard', and 'hazardous'.
when do mishaps occur?
for 'safe' tasks, only a fumble, which results in a mishap of 'superficial'
for 'standard' tasks, nothing is specified except that a fumble mishap occurs on a natural 2 which for all except 'safe', a mishap requires a 2d6 roll on the mishap table.
for 'hazardous' tasks, a mishap occurs on an exceptional failure with a 2d6 roll on the mishap table whereas a fumble mishap is a 3d6 roll.
'fateful' merely guarantees a 2d6 mishap for any failure of any task ( except safe ). A fateful-hazardous mishap is 3d6 on the mishap table.
Then again , the RAW does state " If a mishap seems in appropriate, retroactively declare the task to have been a safe task, and implement a superficial mishap."
..................failure..........exceptional failure............fumble
safe.................................................................superficial mishap
standard...........................................................2d6 on mishap table
hazardous......................2d6 on mishap table..........3d6 on mishap table
fateful forces a mishap on any level of failure, but for 'safe', nothing happens; non-fumble mishaps are ignored. For 'standard', roll 2d6 on mishap table, and for 'hazardous, roll 3d6 on mishap table.
Even without the questionable line, " If the task is listed as fateful ( but not hazardous ), implement a superficial mishap: a mishap roll is not needed."
Deleting this line should fix things, but I think this could be more elegant.
The real issue is a lack of coherent info in the RAW.
There are 3 levels of failure, 'failure', 'exceptional failure', and 'fumble'.
There are 3 levels of danger, 'safe', 'standard', and 'hazardous'.
when do mishaps occur?
for 'safe' tasks, only a fumble, which results in a mishap of 'superficial'
for 'standard' tasks, nothing is specified except that a fumble mishap occurs on a natural 2 which for all except 'safe', a mishap requires a 2d6 roll on the mishap table.
for 'hazardous' tasks, a mishap occurs on an exceptional failure with a 2d6 roll on the mishap table whereas a fumble mishap is a 3d6 roll.
'fateful' merely guarantees a 2d6 mishap for any failure of any task ( except safe ). A fateful-hazardous mishap is 3d6 on the mishap table.
Then again , the RAW does state " If a mishap seems in appropriate, retroactively declare the task to have been a safe task, and implement a superficial mishap."
..................failure..........exceptional failure............fumble
safe.................................................................superficial mishap
standard...........................................................2d6 on mishap table
hazardous......................2d6 on mishap table..........3d6 on mishap table
fateful forces a mishap on any level of failure, but for 'safe', nothing happens; non-fumble mishaps are ignored. For 'standard', roll 2d6 on mishap table, and for 'hazardous, roll 3d6 on mishap table.
Even without the questionable line, " If the task is listed as fateful ( but not hazardous ), implement a superficial mishap: a mishap roll is not needed."
Deleting this line should fix things, but I think this could be more elegant.
Then it sould be also ruled that safe task is mutually exclusive with either hazardous or fateful, as there is no mishap in safe tasks unless a fumble occurs.
In this case, the parking task youd not be safe, but the seeverty of the mishap would mean the severity of the fine (or even that the car is taken to a depot, or it was disturbing whre it was and caused an accident).
I would call it a 'safe' task. This would be a court/administrative task where you are avoiding paying a ticket. A lot hinges on the events preceding this, but a fumble might mean the car had been scratched or dented during an impound. Maybe impounded as a result of botching things in court and pissing the judge or police off.
Standardized task profiles are not meant to be collected, but task profiles are meant to be made up by the ref on the spot. The tasks in the books are meant as examples only.
Fateful/safe: Final exams.
(add: what is RAW?)
(add: what is RAW?)
Imperial Encyclopedia:
We know the ships, boats and vehicles are off. Any interest in re-evaluating them?
I ran up the standard scout:
CraftlD: S; Class: Scout; Type: Scout; TL = F (High Stellar); MCr36.3
Hull: 90/225; Disp = 100dT; Config = 1SL; Armor = 40G: 2.36 cm. Bonded Superdense
Unloaded = 833.3t. Loaded = 869.4t. + cargo
Power: Main: 4/8, Advanced Fusion = 864 Mw, Duration = 30 x24 hr. days / 90 x8 hr. days
Locom: 5/10, Maneuver = 2Gs; 3/6, Jump = 2;
NOE = 180 kph, Cruise = 750 kph, Top = 1000 kph.
Agility = 2 loaded; Agility = 2 without cargo.
Commo: Radio: TL 15 System (1000 AU) x1
ECM: none
Sensors,
Active Obj.: EMS Active Array: TL 14 Far Orbit (500,000 km)
ActObjScan = Active EMS: Routine (7+)
ActObjPin = Active EMS: Routine (7+)
Passive Obj.: Densitometer, Hi-P: penetration = 1 km.
PasObjScan = Densitometer, Hi-P: Routine (7+)
PasObjPin = Densitometer, Hi-P: Routine (7+)
Passive En.: EMS Passive Array: TL 14 Interstellar (2 parsecs)
Neutrino Detector: 10 kw
PasEnScan = Passive EMS: Simple (3+)
PasEnPin = Neutrino Detector: Routine (7+)
Offensive, Space: Hardpoints = 1
Defensive, Space: DefDM=4 loaded
Control: Computer= Model 1/bis x3;
Panels: TL 13 Holographic Linked x181; Special: TL 9 Heads-up Display x1
Enviro: TL 5 Basic Environment, TL 5 Basic Life-support, TL 6 Extended Life Support,
TL 10 Artificial Grav Plates, TL 10 Inertial Compensators
Accom.: Crew=3 (Bridge=2, Engineering=1)
Crew Double-occ. staterooms=4;
SubCraft: 4 dT air/raft x1;
Other: Cargo = 219 Kl available space;
Fuel = 38 dT (515 Kl); Fuel Scoops (20 dT per hour; fills tanks in 1.9 hours),
Fuel Purification Plant=6 hour purification
ObjSize=Average
EmLevel=Faint
Significant issues include: it costs quite a lot more than listed, unloaded weight is slightly off, there's a lot more cargo space available than they think, and there's quite a lot more control panel than the thing needs even accounting for the weapons not being mounted. That and it doesn't follow MegaTrav's crew rules, which require two bridge crew and don't actually give us an alternative for these little ships (also where gunners are concerned - a scout could hypothetically need three gunners). Canonwise, there's enough space to spare to increase power levels to serve two lasers, which it can't do in its present configuration.
Thoughts?
We know the ships, boats and vehicles are off. Any interest in re-evaluating them?
I ran up the standard scout:
CraftlD: S; Class: Scout; Type: Scout; TL = F (High Stellar); MCr36.3
Hull: 90/225; Disp = 100dT; Config = 1SL; Armor = 40G: 2.36 cm. Bonded Superdense
Unloaded = 833.3t. Loaded = 869.4t. + cargo
Power: Main: 4/8, Advanced Fusion = 864 Mw, Duration = 30 x24 hr. days / 90 x8 hr. days
Locom: 5/10, Maneuver = 2Gs; 3/6, Jump = 2;
NOE = 180 kph, Cruise = 750 kph, Top = 1000 kph.
Agility = 2 loaded; Agility = 2 without cargo.
Commo: Radio: TL 15 System (1000 AU) x1
ECM: none
Sensors,
Active Obj.: EMS Active Array: TL 14 Far Orbit (500,000 km)
ActObjScan = Active EMS: Routine (7+)
ActObjPin = Active EMS: Routine (7+)
Passive Obj.: Densitometer, Hi-P: penetration = 1 km.
PasObjScan = Densitometer, Hi-P: Routine (7+)
PasObjPin = Densitometer, Hi-P: Routine (7+)
Passive En.: EMS Passive Array: TL 14 Interstellar (2 parsecs)
Neutrino Detector: 10 kw
PasEnScan = Passive EMS: Simple (3+)
PasEnPin = Neutrino Detector: Routine (7+)
Offensive, Space: Hardpoints = 1
Defensive, Space: DefDM=4 loaded
Control: Computer= Model 1/bis x3;
Panels: TL 13 Holographic Linked x181; Special: TL 9 Heads-up Display x1
Enviro: TL 5 Basic Environment, TL 5 Basic Life-support, TL 6 Extended Life Support,
TL 10 Artificial Grav Plates, TL 10 Inertial Compensators
Accom.: Crew=3 (Bridge=2, Engineering=1)
Crew Double-occ. staterooms=4;
SubCraft: 4 dT air/raft x1;
Other: Cargo = 219 Kl available space;
Fuel = 38 dT (515 Kl); Fuel Scoops (20 dT per hour; fills tanks in 1.9 hours),
Fuel Purification Plant=6 hour purification
ObjSize=Average
EmLevel=Faint
Significant issues include: it costs quite a lot more than listed, unloaded weight is slightly off, there's a lot more cargo space available than they think, and there's quite a lot more control panel than the thing needs even accounting for the weapons not being mounted. That and it doesn't follow MegaTrav's crew rules, which require two bridge crew and don't actually give us an alternative for these little ships (also where gunners are concerned - a scout could hypothetically need three gunners). Canonwise, there's enough space to spare to increase power levels to serve two lasers, which it can't do in its present configuration.
Thoughts?
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Hello Carlobrand,
I wished you would have posted before I stuck my nose into Alien Module 3 and tried translating the document on pages 24-25 following the grammar rules on page 26 and comparing my work to the translation on pages 44-45. I'm going to add any words in the Vargr language I find in MT Alien Volume 1 to the list as well.
Hopefully, I'll get done with the work in time to help here.
Good luck to all who try to help.
I wished you would have posted before I stuck my nose into Alien Module 3 and tried translating the document on pages 24-25 following the grammar rules on page 26 and comparing my work to the translation on pages 44-45. I'm going to add any words in the Vargr language I find in MT Alien Volume 1 to the list as well.
Hopefully, I'll get done with the work in time to help here.
Good luck to all who try to help.
On the 1 hand, I'm pretty sure Clayton Bush reworked them all at some point. On the other hand, I doubt that he had all of the updated charts. On the third hand (as a Hiver would say through software) there isn't a reason we couldn't rework them here ourselves.
Starting smaller: a revised Launch, compliant with current errata through 2.21
CraftlD: QL; Class: Launch; Type: Boat; TL = F (High Stellar); MCr4.8
Hull: 18/45; Disp = 20dT; Config = 1SL: streamlined needle/wedge; armor = 40G: 2.36 cm. Bonded Superdense
Unloaded = 98.1t. Loaded = 307.9t.
Power: Main: 1/2, Advanced Fusion = 54 Mw, Duration = 31 x24 hr. days / 93 x8 hr. days
Locom: 1/2, Maneuver = 1Gs;
NOE = 190 kph, Cruise = 750 kph, Top = 1000 kph.
Agility = 0 loaded; Agility = 0 without cargo.
Commo: Radio: TL 15 System (1000 AU) x1
ECM: none
Sensors,
Active Obj.: EMS Active Array: TL 14 Planetary (50,000 km)
ActObjScan = Active EMS: Difficult (11+)
ActObjPin = Active EMS: Difficult (11+)
Passive Obj.: None
Passive En.: EMS Passive Array: TL 14 Interplanetary (1 AU)
PasEnScan = Passive EMS: Routine (7+)
PasEnPin = impossible
Offensive: HardPoints= 1
Defensive, Space: DefDM=2 loaded
Control: Computer= Model 0/bis x3; Panels: TL 10 Dynamic Linked x21; Special: TL 9 Heads-up Display x1, Electronic Circuit Protection. Enviro: TL 5 Basic Environment, TL 5 Basic Life-support, TL 6 Extended Life Support, TL 10 Artificial Grav Plates, TL 10 Inertial Compensators
Accom.: Crew=1 (Bridge=1)
Passengers=19
Seats: 20 Roomy, 8 hours or less -
Other: Cargo = 207 Kl available space; max mass 206.934 tons;
Fuel = 3 dT (40.5 Kl);
Fuel Scoops (4 dT per hour; fills tanks in 0.8 hours);
Fuel Purification Plant=None
ObjSize=Small
EmLevel=Faint
CraftlD: QL; Class: Launch; Type: Boat; TL = F (High Stellar); MCr4.8
Hull: 18/45; Disp = 20dT; Config = 1SL: streamlined needle/wedge; armor = 40G: 2.36 cm. Bonded Superdense
Unloaded = 98.1t. Loaded = 307.9t.
Power: Main: 1/2, Advanced Fusion = 54 Mw, Duration = 31 x24 hr. days / 93 x8 hr. days
Locom: 1/2, Maneuver = 1Gs;
NOE = 190 kph, Cruise = 750 kph, Top = 1000 kph.
Agility = 0 loaded; Agility = 0 without cargo.
Commo: Radio: TL 15 System (1000 AU) x1
ECM: none
Sensors,
Active Obj.: EMS Active Array: TL 14 Planetary (50,000 km)
ActObjScan = Active EMS: Difficult (11+)
ActObjPin = Active EMS: Difficult (11+)
Passive Obj.: None
Passive En.: EMS Passive Array: TL 14 Interplanetary (1 AU)
PasEnScan = Passive EMS: Routine (7+)
PasEnPin = impossible
Offensive: HardPoints= 1
Defensive, Space: DefDM=2 loaded
Control: Computer= Model 0/bis x3; Panels: TL 10 Dynamic Linked x21; Special: TL 9 Heads-up Display x1, Electronic Circuit Protection. Enviro: TL 5 Basic Environment, TL 5 Basic Life-support, TL 6 Extended Life Support, TL 10 Artificial Grav Plates, TL 10 Inertial Compensators
Accom.: Crew=1 (Bridge=1)
Passengers=19
Seats: 20 Roomy, 8 hours or less -
Other: Cargo = 207 Kl available space; max mass 206.934 tons;
Fuel = 3 dT (40.5 Kl);
Fuel Scoops (4 dT per hour; fills tanks in 0.8 hours);
Fuel Purification Plant=None
ObjSize=Small
EmLevel=Faint
I've gotten similar figures redoing it. I've noticed a couple of differences between my reworking and yours, though, and I'm curious if I'm missing something.
I get a price of MCr25.632 for it (assuming the 80% discount). I noticed you did use some components that weren't TL15 in it, where I used TL15 across the board. That would affect the price, but I'm surprised at the difference between our designs. I also got more cargo than you (267.8 Kl for mine).
I've been really surprised at the way controls are figured on the small ships in the encyclopedia. With the Type S, the large holodisplay alone should be able to meet all the CP needs of the ship, though that's a bit silly from a realism point of view.
Another funky thing with the Type S specifically are some of the corners that were cut with it: Adding system-wide laser and maser communicators really adds to the utility of the ship (as well as giving the Scouts some backup communications systems in case the radio cuts out). Adding electronic circuit protection really helps in the rare cases that the ship comes under fire. All of that only adds about MCr 2 to the price of the ship (IMTU there's a Suleiman II variant that includes these).
This was mainly an effort to tweak the existing Imperial Encyclopedia scout to make it compliant with existing rules - thus minimal changes. I didn't feel I should do more for an errata post without a consensus that it should be done. And, no, I didn't do the discount - I figured the straight price would make a better ground for checking my construction math, and the 80% could be figured later.
I agree that there's room for improvement. There are a number of things I'd do different if I were designing it for myself, including a radical overhaul of the control panels. Large holodisplay is overkill though: Cr500,000 for a system that provides five times what the ship needs. I'd have gone with a TL13 Heads-up Holodisplay and then filled in with TL13 panels, only about a quarter the cost of the large holodisplay.
I agree about the laser and maser comms, keeping in mind that they're only useful if the other guy has one too. On the ECP - under current errata, their effect in space combat is to eliminate every other computer hit. Useful if you're in the way of nukes, a particle beam or meson fire, or if you get an internal. My gut tells me if you find yourself in the way of military weapons while flying an agility-2/model-1bis scout, the million-plus credits for ECP is not going to buy you enough of an edge to survive the encounter. However, it could also serve as insurance against a gamemaster who tries to throw a weird natural EMP effect or a radiation field or some such twist at you, so I wouldn't rule it out.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Clay was one of the most active members of HIWG (History of the Imperium Working Group) back in the MegaTraveller days. You'll find his name in Challenge and Traveller's Digest. He was a leader in errata collection and application, especially for published ships.
He was also a little disappointed with where Traveller went after MegaTraveller, which led to very little of his unpublished work being transfered to the web.
He was a regular and frequent Traveller referee at GenCon during its later years in Milwaukee.
He died in 2007.
Agreed. I mainly have it for RP purposes. I've always loved big holodisplays in movies, so I've got to let my PCs have one.
The main reason I include it is that the damage points for the power plant and drives gets a decent boost with it. I agree that anything that can do computer/internal hits to a Type-S totally outclasses it anyways, but I can see the extra damage points spelling the difference between life and death if the scoutship has to fend off something like a Corsair long enough to do a jump calculation.
Can you please explain me this assertion?
A large holodisplay gives you 1500 CPs, that, at TL 15 means it can control about 10 MCr of ship components, while the scout costs nearly doublé that, and only controls themselves and accomodations don't need CPs...
I guess you use also the computer CP multiple on special add-ons, but as I understand the rules, only linked panel controls use that multiplier...
I know I'm against the thinking of many people in this (and even the oficial example Mr Furgate gave us), but I refuse to believe that a large holodisplay alone may control a starship, with no imput controls for the crew to give instructions, or that a add ons alone may control a ship.
My take and understanding of the rules, even if going against most people, is that add ons are added aside from computer multiple and may exceed the computer maximum imput (being this one one of their main uses).
So, if you need 21500 CPs in your craft and you have a model 3 computer (maximum imput 20000 CPs, multipler 25), you can add a large holodisplay (accounting for the 1500 CPs over computer capacity), but you will still need the panel controls for the 20000, and if you add another large holodisplay, you'll need panel for the 18500 CPs remaining, not that a single large holodisplay gives you 37500 CPs and so covers for all the ship's needs (and even more, even without panel controls), but cannot control the craft because the computer's imput limit does not allow you. I find it quite more logical the first option, even if Mr Furgate's example went for the second.
This was discussed in this thread: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=27438
The rules as written use the same title for the CP column of both units and add-ons. I don't see a reason to interpret that they mean one thing in one case and a different thing in the second. They are admittedly unclear, but the 2.21 errata appears to endorse Mr. Fugate's interpretation.
I'll have to read through that thread and get some feel for what the counterarguments are, but it's off to work at the moment.
Sure, but:
(bold is mine)
See that even if the CPs are listed in the same column, the add-ons are listed separately than the control panel units (IMHO hinting that they are not), and are not listed as "linked" (though, like them, they need a computer to work).
That's why I gave you the link
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