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Errata - that difficult subject

Ummm ... I don't know. I'm halfway competent with cars, but they've never been a passion for me.

Well, if you're halfway competent, you're more so than myself...

I think it depends on what we're counting as control panel elements. The Model T, if I recall, started life with some sort of manual crank ignition, infamous for occasionally breaking a person's wrist. Trying to rig it up to start on a key is doable but involves considerable modification. Is that something like what you're alluding to?

Yes, that's what I was alluding to

I get you. Was a time when the housing industry switched to aluminum wiring. Not a bad idea if everything is to that spec - but it wasn't. Came to find out that when you hooked up the aluminum wiring to the typically not-aluminum outlets and switches, the connection points were ticking time bombs: they'd degenerate over time, eventually reaching a point where they'd produce a lot of heat and start fires.

It's not inconceivable that engineering solutions of different tech levels - like maybe the introduction of a cheap but durable wire made of some mysterious plastic with conductive properties - might be either incompatible with each other or require more adaptation than was worth the effort. Similarly, a Ford-T engine made from superdense metal and ever-smooth frictionless future-ceramic might not be a Ford-T engine that a TL5 mechanic could easily repair, for all that it weighed about the same and had the same power output.

Thing is, the rules now permit you to attach TL13 control panels to a TL12 jump drive - or at least there's no obvious difference between a jump-3 drive produced by a TL12 factory a jump-3 drive produced by a TL13 factory. One could imagine differences that wouldn't be obvious on the game scale but might be very important to the mechanic working "under the hood", but some technology doesn't change a lot over time and some does, so it's hard to argue when you'd declare a difference verses when you'd say they're just using different manufacturing techniques to end up with the same piece of equipment.

True, there's no obvious diference in the rules, and nothing that forbides you to attach TL13 controls to a TL12 JD, aside from the fact that to have the TL13 controls ship must be (at least) TL13, and rules talk about the craft TL for the CPs...

I'd say those points in the rules, used in combination, efectively forbid you to atatch those TL13 controls to the TL12 JD, as if the ship is TL13, so is considered the JD.

Another point (and I thought that was what we were discussing, as this is the errata thread) is if that rule should be modified, and here I have mixed feelings, as I understand the problems that merging TLs might have (as the one you told us about wiring), but also I see the absurdness of the example about the gunners you also told as earlier...

In game terms, there's nothing saying the ship built entirely to TL12 specs at a TL15 port needs to be serviced at TL15 ports because of differences in manufacturing. In a nutshell, there's nothing in canon that says there is - or there isn't - a difference, so which way you fell on the issue would be an IMTU decision.

True, but it would be built as a TL12 ship, with no higher TL components.

Anyway, IMHO, you'd have some problems to have this lower TL built in a TL15 world, as it would probably not be economicaly profitable to the shipyard (sure they can make more profits by building TL15 ships). I guess they would direct you to a TL12 shipyard (probably there's one not too far).

Again IMHO, it would be as asking some car factory to build you a Ford Model T (I don't want to anger SanDragon ;)) as the original were. Probably you could have it done by some artisan (at an exhorbitant price), but not by a car factory.
 
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This is moving a ways from rules mechanics and canon, and into the area of milieu-based speculation and apologia (defined as a defense or explanation).

...True, there's no obvious diference in the rules, and nothing that forbides you to attach TL13 controls to a TL12 JD, aside from the fact that to have the TL13 controls ship must be (at least) TL13, and rules talk about the craft TL for the CPs...

I'd say those points in the rules, used in combination, efectively forbid you to atatch those TL13 controls to the TL12 JD, as if the ship is TL13, so is considered the JD ...

I'd say otherwise.

As I mentioned, the bigger problem occurs at the smaller end of the scale: small craft and vehicles. Let's say I'm designing a one-man grav cycle. I have available to me a TL9 standard grav unit, a TL10 H-grav unit, or a TL12 L-grav unit. My goal is to make something anyone can afford, so the first is my preference - power-hungry but cheap. Under your interpretation, for even that TL9 model I have no choice but to install a Model-0 computer at a cost of Cr60,000, because the TL8+ control panels require a computer to link to. However, there's nothing in the rules that requires me to use control panels of the same or higher tech level, and I can meet the little bike's needs quite adequately with simple TL7 electronic control panels, especially if it's battery-powered. Doing it that way, I can offer a grav bike that any janitor or plumber could afford - as opposed to something that costs about half the cost of their house.

Now let's get back to my original problem. If I'm building this thing on Mora, I can tap into TL15 batteries. Pricey, but it's cheaper to go with the pricey batteries and low-cost drive than it is to put in a high-cost drive so you can use lower-cost batteries. Except ... you're saying that the vehicle counds as TL15 now, and suddenly I need more control panels for a bike whose only difference is that it's being manufactured on Mora with TL15 batteries. Not only more - I have to put in a computer so I can use the TL13 holo-linked panels?

All explanations aside, a competent engineer is not going to resort to methods that radically increase the control demands and cost unless that actually delivers some other benefit. He's going to use the technology that's most efficient. The tech available to us nowadays is pretty fantastic: we can build tanks that deliver cross-country performance at near-freeway speeds; we can build rocket "cars" that approach supersonic speeds. Most of that tech, however, can not be found in the typical Yugo.
 
This is moving a ways from rules mechanics and canon, and into the area of milieu-based speculation and apologia (defined as a defense or explanation).

You're right, perhaps we could move this discussion to its own thread, if we're going to keep it...

I'd say otherwise.

As I mentioned, the bigger problem occurs at the smaller end of the scale: small craft and vehicles. Let's say I'm designing a one-man grav cycle. I have available to me a TL9 standard grav unit, a TL10 H-grav unit, or a TL12 L-grav unit. My goal is to make something anyone can afford, so the first is my preference - power-hungry but cheap. Under your interpretation, for even that TL9 model I have no choice but to install a Model-0 computer at a cost of Cr60,000, because the TL8+ control panels require a computer to link to. However, there's nothing in the rules that requires me to use control panels of the same or higher tech level, and I can meet the little bike's needs quite adequately with simple TL7 electronic control panels, especially if it's battery-powered. Doing it that way, I can offer a grav bike that any janitor or plumber could afford - as opposed to something that costs about half the cost of their house.

Now let's get back to my original problem. If I'm building this thing on Mora, I can tap into TL15 batteries. Pricey, but it's cheaper to go with the pricey batteries and low-cost drive than it is to put in a high-cost drive so you can use lower-cost batteries. Except ... you're saying that the vehicle counds as TL15 now, and suddenly I need more control panels for a bike whose only difference is that it's being manufactured on Mora with TL15 batteries. Not only more - I have to put in a computer so I can use the TL13 holo-linked panels?

I'm affraid i didn't explain myself as well as I'd liked or you assumed something I didn't intend to say:

You can use lower TL controls. You can build a TL15 craft working in mechanical controls, if you want and have crew enough to use them, but here we were talking about linking a TL12 component to TL13 controls, not about the need for controls to be TL13.

Even some flying vehicles were published (IIRC the article was named Budget Vehicles, and was in a MT journal) that worked with electronic controls, without computer, foresaking the rule about flying craft needing two computers.

you can also find some examples of it (one of them designed by myself) in this tread http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=24368&page=3
 
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Moving on to another subject:

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the sensor rules. Most of it's straightforward, but that bit about confrontation's confusing me. More on that in another post. The real problem for this forum is the surprise rules:

"To determine if an attacking side has surprise: {task roll} ... Referee: Success at this task provides the attacking side with the benefits of surprise. Use the best Leader skill level and Sensor Ops skill level from among the crewmembers of each side. Since this is a confrontation task, both parties contribute DMs as described in the Referee’s Guide to Tasks chapter. If this task fails, both parties are considered to be aware of each other. If any mishap occurs, the defending side has surprise instead.
"Surprise is lost when any unit in the other side gives the alarm in some manner. All spinal mount shots will alert the enemy to an attack; turret and bay fire may not. Any unit that is hit but not rendered inoperative will raise the alarm. If the alarm is not raised in this manner, there is a chance that an unattacked unit in the defending side will see the attack and give the alarm, ... Surprise continues until it is lost, and so it may continue indefinitely. ..."

But later, under Sensor Tasks:

"If the sensing unit uses active sensors for the scan and the enemy has any functioning sensors, the sensing unit must automatically reveal the sensing unit to the enemy as if the enemy had performed an exceptional success sensor scan on the unit using active sensors."

Now, nowhere under Surprise does it mention that if you're scanning with your active sensors, you're going to glow like a flashlight on a dark night on your opponent's sensor panel. Ergo, no chance of surprise at all. One would think that deserves mention up where it talks about the circumstances where surprise is lost.

(Not said, but I think equally applicable, is that if you're using active sensors for pinpoint targeting - to lock your weapons in - then you are likewise going to show up on at least the sensors of the ship you're targeting. Consider the example of fighter pilots whose threat warning system picks up a frequency known to be used by the enemy for targeting missiles. The targeted ship will sound the alarm if hit and not disabled - which I interpret as, if he still has functioning communications and someone's alive at the communications station - but he ought to be able to sound the alarm if he's missed as well. For that matter, he ought to be able to sound the alarm whether you make your active sensor lock roll or not, since he's likely to pick up some of your emissions as you make the attempt.

Issue doesn't come up at high tech. TL 14+ sensors are actually better at passive scan than active thanks to the neutrino sensors, and they pinpoint with equal effectiveness. It is indeed possible to lock weapons without alerting the enemy to your presence. (Debate over whether it's possible to fire without being detected are reserved for another forum, since this is purely about the game mechanics.)

At TL 11-13 passive scans are just as effective as active scans, but the ship needs to flip on active sensors for targeting, or it has to get closer before the passive sensors have a decent chance at gaining a lock. (At TL 11, near as I can figure, ship has to be at 0 range to have any significant chance.)

At TL 10, ships run into trouble. A TL 10 ship can run silent, but its neutrino sensor is essentially useless for scanning and pinpoint purposes - can't say more than that there's a neutrino source off thataway somewhere. Densitometer is useless for targeting. Only means of targeting is to flip on the pingers - at which point, the targeted ship at least should know you're there.)
 
Ok, folks... there's a lot above that really is NOT errata.

And I have a small update I want to release anyway...

So I'm going to post to my website v2.21, and could folks start posting after this message any errata I've missed from previous updates (it's been over a year!).

I'm really doing this to test my new cover, and if the inside links work.
 
Thank you.

Of course, I would have liked this even better if you had published it before I traipsed off to Staples to print my 4th ed.

Oh well, I gotta finish replacing the artwork anyway.

Thanks again for the update.
 
Evening DonM,

Ok, folks... there's a lot above that really is NOT errata.

And I have a small update I want to release anyway...

So I'm going to post to my website v2.21, and could folks start posting after this message any errata I've missed from previous updates (it's been over a year!).

I'm really doing this to test my new cover, and if the inside links work.

Thanks for the update and I tested the robots link which works just fine.
 
Of course, I would have liked this even better if you had published it before I traipsed off to Staples to print my 4th ed.

Oh well, I gotta finish replacing the artwork anyway.

Fixed the Robots link, adjusted the paging.

Let me know what you think of the cover font... I want to know if it's right for the books or not...
 
Fixed the Robots link, adjusted the paging.

Let me know what you think of the cover font... I want to know if it's right for the books or not...

I like the cover.

What fonts are you using for the title? I am redoing the artwork in my players' manual - a wip of it is over in the Imperial Museum of Art.

Looking at the ARL danger space images - would you like some better images? I redid those for my Players' Manual.
 
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The title is GlobeGothic MN Bold... and yes, the two images I really want to replace are the bad scans of the danger space and the grenade throwing graphics.
 
Greetings, DonM.

I picked up a US Army Field Manual on battlefield illumination, which gives the effective illumination radius/diameter for the 81mm and 4.2 inch mortars, along with the 105mm and 155mm howitzers, as well as aircraft flares. The ranges shown in the MegaTraveller Referee Manual are way too low. Would you be interested in the actual data for use in the errata or not?

I also have actual dimensions and output for US and German World War 2 tank engines, along with dimensions and output for most of the aircraft engines in use up through about 1970. I am not sure if you might be interested in that for a more accurate design sequence.
 
Issue on Referee's Manual Page 13:

"On a fateful task, if failure occurs, roll 2D on the Mishap Table. Mishaps are guaranteed if a fateful task fails. If the task is listed as fateful and hazardous, roll 3D on the Mishap Table instead of rolling 2D. If the task is listed as fateful (but not hazardous), implement a Superficial mishap; no mishap roll is required."

Which is it? Roll 2d6 for a failure unless it's hazardous, or go straight to the Superficial mishap? I'm thinking 3d6 for fateful/hazardous, 2d6 for fateful/regular ... and is fateful/safe even possible? There's another rule that says safe is never damaging; would that mean a fateful/safe has some automatic but nondamaging result? ("Your skin has turned a bright shade of orange.")
 
Under 'safe', the RAW indicates that a failure is non-damaging, but a fumble is always a superficial mishap.

The description is repeated under 'hazardous'. So make a failure of a 'hazardous' 'safe' task a superficial mishap as the term 'hazardous' simply means that a failure guarantees a mishap.
 
Under 'safe', the RAW indicates that a failure is non-damaging, but a fumble is always a superficial mishap.

The description is repeated under 'hazardous'. So make a failure of a 'hazardous' 'safe' task a superficial mishap as the term 'hazardous' simply means that a failure guarantees a mishap.

I see hazardous and safe as contradictory tasks. I cannot see a task that can be both at once.
 
My mistake
I had meant 'fateful' instead of 'hazardous'

After careful reading, I feel no errata is needed.

I also see this conbo as contradictory. Fateful means mishap is likely (usually is a task to avoid a mishap), while safe means mistake is rare. The only way those two qualificatives could be used as a combo is when you try to avoid a light mishap (as parking your car in a forbidden place and hoping you won't be fined).

But if this combo is allowed, what happens on a natural 2? a 2d6 mishap?
 
I also see this conbo as contradictory. Fateful means mishap is likely (usually is a task to avoid a mishap), while safe means mistake is rare. The only way those two qualificatives could be used as a combo is when you try to avoid a light mishap (as parking your car in a forbidden place and hoping you won't be fined).

But if this combo is allowed, what happens on a natural 2? a 2d6 mishap?

safe is no mishaps. not even a nat 2. A safe fateful simply cannot be retried, since whatever was being avoided wasn't avoided.

Avoiding a parking ticket is a good example.
simple, legal, edu, safe, fateful, unskilled ok, absolute, opposed by law level
a few minutes is simple, 15 minutes is routine, an hour is difficult, 4 hous is formidable, and a day is impossible. Task can be avoided by Cr1 per 4 hours in parking fees. reduce by one step in suburbs, by two in rural.​
 
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