Escape Velocity Problem Returns in T5!

[djwildstar]

When pressure from the civilian side caused the J5 drive to be declassified (in, say, 30 years or so?), the X-boat were already sidelined, but after having been hyped so thoroughly as they had, sheer pride prevented the Emperor from admitting it. So the X-boats didn't get the funds to upgrade to J5.

I don't buy this. Instead of being the result of pride and boondoggle, I think the X-boat network operates much like the morning newspaper. It is the best generally-available common-carrier network, and provides the entire Imperial public with the same information at a predictable time. It isn't the fastest way to transmit news, but it is sufficient for most needs. It has stayed the same for so long because of two key factors:

1) For purely political reason, the existing X-boat network is sub-optimal. Many links operate at less than the J-4 capacity of existing vessels; the network could be improved by eliminating some stops and re-routing others. This has not been done, presumably because it is politically infeasible. So even if J-5 or J-6 X-boats were introduced, the system would not operate more quickly (but it would be more expensive).

2) The speed advantage operates to benefit the Imperial Navy, very high nobility (Emperor and Archdukes) and megacorporations - all of which can afford to operate J-6 networks, and thereby profit politically or financially from advance notice of important information. These groups have a strong incentive to maintain the status quo. Absent buy-in from at least one of these groups, pretty much nothing happens on an Imperium-wide basis.

Admittedly this does not explain X-boat stations on worlds too poor to bribe anyone, but it's a start. Places like Pixie may be the result of pure budget-padding.

Don't forget the possibility that a high-ranking noble owns a parcel of land on some of these worlds, and insist an X-boat station be placed there: Clearly, it is in the best interest of the Imperium to route X-boats through Pixie, so that important communiques from the Emperor can reach Duke Mucketymuck at his contemplative retreat there. The fact that such a routing may also improve the value of the Duke's parcel of land over the long term is wholly irrelevant.

Why this wouldn't work IMTU: Both Norris and Delphine have access to navy couriers and would be using them rather than (or in addition to -- regulations quite possibly still require reports sent by X-boat) the X-boat network. None of Delphine's shenanigans would have the slightest effect.

IMTU, Norris and Delphine both have access to the Imperial Navy couriers. In addition, once Norris becomes Archduke, he has access to the ImperialLines TJ Jump-6 network. However, there are a very limited number of Type TJ ships available, and IMTU the Imperial Navy network only serves Navy bases and fleets.

The Nobility can, of course, order the Navy to dispatch couriers to specific location to pick up and drop off a message. However, such orders have to be routed through the chain of command. Ultimately, the commander of the Navy base (or admiral of the fleet) dispatching the courier can then decide how to best execute the request. In general, the Navy won't strip its bases and fleets of their couriers to run the Nobility's errands ("If Your Grace wants a mailman, I respectfully suggest that you pay a visit to the Scout Service"). In effect, these ships can be used in an emergency to deliver a message anywhere in the shortest time - but can't be used for routine traffic except from Navy base to Navy base (or from deployed fleets to Navy bases).

The TJ ships are similar, except that there are even fewer of the ships available - so an individual ship can be ordered on a specific errand, and ships will bring critical news from the capitals, but outside of communication between the high nobility, this network is very limited.

The net effect IMTU is that the normal business of the Imperial government goes through the X-boat network. So the actual work of governing and business flows through the IISS Communications Branch. They routinely fill requests like "deliver this message to all worlds in the subsector", or "deliver this message to Baron Mucketymuck wherever he may be" and route the message via a combination of Type S and X-boat links that get it there. Eventually.

Another thing that gets overlooked all the time is than an X-boat route doesn't rely on anything analogous to railroad tracks. An X-boat link is two X-boat tenders within 4 parsecs of each other, one or more X-boats, and a set of jump coordinates. One implication of this is that practically no expense is involved in changing an X-boat route assuming the X-boat service is already maintaining a vessel capable of transporting an X-boat tender

While you can run X-boats between two systems with just what you mention on a temporary basis, a typical X-boat station is considerably more than this. A planet-side component is specifically mentioned in Supplement 7 (page 11). The stated purpose of this station is to receive messages relayed via the tenders from inbound X-boats, sort them, and forward messages to appropriate out-going X-boats (again, relaying through the nearby tender).

The X-boat network also canonically includes J-2 Type S ships to serve "nearly all" Imperial worlds that are not directly on X-boat links (Supplement 7, page 15). I assume (but have no canonical references) that X-boat stations include facilities to support a considerable number of Type S ships, plus crews and support facilities for all of the X-boats, tenders, and scout/courier ships. The net result is that the overall facility is at least as large as any other Scout base (and about as easy to move).

X-boat tenders are themselves Jump-capable, and can perform a single Jump-1 with a full load of either 4 X-boats or 2 Type S scout/couriers. Use of demountable tanks could allow the ship to perform 3 Jump-1 with a half load (2 X-boats or 1 Type S).

Yes, the existence of J5 and J6 passenger liners is an assumption on my part (Though I'd prefer to call it a deduction ). The existence of private J5 couriers, OTOH, is canonical (Oberlindes is said to have some).

Canonically, Oberlindes Lines also has a J-5 freighter, Emissary. ;-) The Imperial household also has a J-6 courier network, courtesy of Imperiallines and the Type TJ frontier transports. J-6 naval couriers are also canonical, since they appear in Supplement 7: Fighting Ships. I think it reasonably follows that most sufficiently-large companies and the megacorporations have high-Jump courier services - probably operating at J-5 or J-6. Other than that, I believe MT canonically states that the X-boat network is the fastest long-distance communication system available to the general public on a "common carrier" basis.

IMTU, I interpret this to mean that J-5 and J-6 operations are private - their operators see them as a key competitive advantage. As such, their existence isn't advertised, and their use is restricted to the organization. You literally can't buy passage on a J-6 liner; except under rare referee-controlled circumstances (for example, if your patron is a megacorporation, if you are a high-ranking noble or Navy official, or something similar). Otherwise, J-5 and J-6 passage just isn't available. There are of course, exceptions: specific pairs of worlds that are ideal trading partners 5 or 6 parsecs apart may be served by an isolated high-Jump link. But IMTU, anyone who tries to provide common-carrier J-5 or J-6 service is ruthlessly suppressed (in general, the megacorporations do the dirty work while the Imperium looks the other way).

 

[rancke]

When pressure from the civilian side caused the J5 drive to be declassified (in, say, 30 years or so?), the X-boat were already sidelined, but after having been hyped so thoroughly as they had, sheer pride prevented the Emperor from admitting it. So the X-boats didn't get the funds to upgrade to J5.

I don't buy this.

You don't buy it because you don't like the explanation or you don't buy it because it is fatally flawed? If the latter, what is the flaw? I do not claim that it's a perfect explanation, merely that it is much much better than any other explanation I've ever heard. First and foremost it explains the fatal flaw that makes the official[*] story so unbelievable: The otherwise inexplicable inefficiency of the system. It doesn't fulfil its purpose! Which can be explained only if there is no reason why the Emperor should want it to. He certainly has both the authority and the funds to make it work. The existence of "NavyNet" neatly explains that.

[*] I find myself unable to come up with two good terms to distinguish between 'official game setting information' and 'official Imperial propaganda'. Here I'm talking about game setting information.​

Instead of being the result of pride and boondoggle, I think the X-boat network operates much like the morning newspaper. It is the best generally-available common-carrier network, and provides the entire Imperial public with the same information at a predictable time.

But it isn't. The existence of civilian J5 traffic means it doesn't provide information as fast as other available means. If civilian J6 traffic likewise exists (which the ability of PC with the requisite cash to have J6 ships built on demand suggests is the case) even more so, but civilian J5 traffic is enough to render the X-boats pretty much irrelevant for long-distance information transfer. Indeed, if the average information speed of the X-boats is the canonical 2.6 parsecs/week, civilian J4 traffic is enough to make them pretty much irrelevant.

1) For purely political reason, the existing X-boat network is sub-optimal. Many links operate at less than the J-4 capacity of existing vessels; the network could be improved by eliminating some stops and re-routing others. This has not been done, presumably because it is politically infeasible. So even if J-5 or J-6 X-boats were introduced, the system would not operate more quickly (but it would be more expensive).

With major X-boat lines being described as having one X-boat depart every 6 hours, there's no way budgetary concerns can explain the absence of J6 X-boats along major trunk lines (at the very least sector capital to sector capital). One J6 X-boat every week would beat the official version. So it would have to be a concious choice. Your 'politically feasible' reason. But I can think of no plausible political reason to keep the X-boats' performance suboptimal. Certainly the official MT explanation that it's done to secure an advantage for the High and Mighty doesn't work, for several reasons:

* Civilian J4 traffic outperforms the X-boats.
* If advance information really is valuable, anyone who could afford their own J6 couriers would have them. The number of organizations that can afford a more limited courier network (tailored to their specific need) runs into so many that the advantage would be moot.
* The one canonical example of the High and Mighty (in casu Norris) taking advantage of the advance warning doesn't work. The timing of Strephon just happening to appoint Norris archduke so shortly before he died is so suspicious that even if it was actually true, his political opponents would be able to challenge it.
* The official story of when the knowledge of Strephon's death reached the Marches is flat out unbelievable. Even if the High and Mighty did get advance notice, it wouldn't nearly as much advance notice as the official story claims. I just don't believe that a couple of hundred people (the minimum number of people that would get advance notice through NavyNet) would be able to keep the information that the Emperor had been killed secret. If we assume that megacorporations and powerful member worlds had J6 couriers too, the number of people that would have to keep the secret balloons.
* If one percent of the population of Mora were willing to pay a decicredit a day to get fresh news for around the universe, an interstellar news network serving Mora alone would have a budget of 3,650 million credits. A pan-Imperial news network serving just the important member worlds would almost be a megacorporation in itself. If something like that doesn't exist, it's because something else (like one or more megacorporations, perhaps) is already doing the job.

2) The speed advantage operates to benefit the Imperial Navy, very high nobility (Emperor and Archdukes) and megacorporations...

I include ordinary subsector dukes in the pool of people with access to NavyNet. The Emperor would want reports from and orders to his principal servants to get through with the greatest feasible speed. That was, after all, why the X-boats were created in the first place.

- all of which can afford to operate J-6 networks, and thereby profit politically or financially from advance notice of important information.

A LOT of people can afford to operate J6 networks. Not Imperium-spanning networks, but a multi-billionaire on Mora could easily afford his own couriers on Capital, Deneb and the surrounding subsector capitals. And if advance notice was valuable, that's just what he would do. So would the governments of powerful member worlds. And so would anyone who can afford to pay human couriers to travel on high-performance passenger liners.

These groups have a strong incentive to maintain the status quo. Absent buy-in from at least one of these groups, pretty much nothing happens on an Imperium-wide basis.

It doesen't have to be on an Imperium-wide basis. Probably no one on Mora has courier service from Terra. But a much less extensive network would do, because it would interact with the tens or hundreds of thousands of other such limited networks.

IMTU, Norris and Delphine both have access to the Imperial Navy couriers. In addition, once Norris becomes Archduke, he has access to the ImperialLines TJ Jump-6 network. However, there are a very limited number of Type TJ ships available, and IMTU the Imperial Navy network only serves Navy bases and fleets.

This is why IMTU observations are often of much less use than observations about our common frame of reference, the OTU. I could point out that IMTU the messed-up X-boat networks existed as early as 1105, only seven years after Norris became duke, much less archduke, and that having as large a number of couriers as he can get a budget for is the ambition of every admiral commanding an Imperial fleet and that IMTU Imperiallines isn't primarily concerned with routine information dissemination. But what would be the use of that?

The Nobility can, of course, order the Navy to dispatch couriers to specific location to pick up and drop off a message. However, such orders have to be routed through the chain of command. Ultimately, the commander of the Navy base (or admiral of the fleet) dispatching the courier can then decide how to best execute the request.

Like on the next routine courier run to the neighboring naval base? Or the next routine courier run to Sector HQ?

In general, the Navy won't strip its bases and fleets of their couriers to run the Nobility's errands ("If Your Grace wants a mailman, I respectfully suggest that you pay a visit to the Scout Service").

"Admiral, the speedy forwarding of reports to the Emperor is of vital importance to the Imperium. The X-boats are incapable of performing that function, for reasons you know as well as I do. It is therefore your duty to assist in the forwarding of these reports, just as it was the duty of your colleagues to forward the Emperor's orders to me. Furthermore, let me remind you, Fleet Admiral, that I am the direct representative of the Emperor with full oversight of the Imperial Navy inside my duchy. I am therefore, ex officio, your superior officer. I suggest you don't force me to make it an order."

In effect, these ships can be used in an emergency to deliver a message anywhere in the shortest time - but can't be used for routine traffic except from Navy base to Navy base (or from deployed fleets to Navy bases).

In effect, these ships are routinely used to carry messages between navy bases and other places with a strong Navy presence (which includes any subsector capital without a full naval base). Taking official Imperial administrative bumpf along is no burden at all.

The net effect IMTU is that the normal business of the Imperial government goes through the X-boat network. So the actual work of governing and business flows through the IISS Communications Branch. They routinely fill requests like "deliver this message to all worlds in the subsector", or "deliver this message to Baron Mucketymuck wherever he may be" and route the message via a combination of Type S and X-boat links that get it there. Eventually.

Oh, for local distribution your average subsector duke would IMO turn to the duchy navy or (if no such thing as duchy navies exist) his private courier service (Private as in funded by the duchy, not private as in paid out of his personal income (though he probably has a few of those too; I know I would have if I was a subsector duke)).

Continued next post​

 

[rancke]

Continued from previous post.

While you can run X-boats between two systems with just what you mention on a temporary basis, a typical X-boat station is considerably more than this. A planet-side component is specifically mentioned in Supplement 7 (page 11).

I didn't know that reference. I could point out that it doesn't say that the groundside message center is a part of an X-boat establishment. A Scout Base or a Scout office in the local starport would do. But just take it as a bit of hyperbole. Whatever extra expense a groundside message center would entail would still be pocket change compared to even one X-boat.

Canonically, Oberlindes Lines also has a J-5 freighter, Emissary. ;-)

Not allowed to operate inside the Imperium, though.

The Imperial household also has a J-6 courier network, courtesy of Imperiallines and the Type TJ frontier transports. J-6 naval couriers are also canonical, since they appear in Supplement 7: Fighting Ships. I think it reasonably follows that most sufficiently-large companies and the megacorporations have high-Jump courier services - probably operating at J-5 or J-6.

Amounting to hundreds of people per sector even before we get into the question of who else would want and be able to afford a (more limited) courier network of their own.

Other than that, I believe MT canonically states that the X-boat network is the fastest long-distance communication system available to the general public on a "common carrier" basis.

Which is patently not the case, as previously pointed out. Even J4 civilian traffic (including the ships plying the major trade lanes that we're told the X-boats follow :devil will outperform the X-boats' prodigious 2.6 parsecs per week.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

While you can run X-boats between two systems with just what you mention on a temporary basis, a typical X-boat station is considerably more than this. A planet-side component is specifically mentioned in Supplement 7 (page 11).

The express boat system would not work without the express boat tender.
These tenders, stationed in each system that express boats stop at, serve two
purposes. First, they tend express boats, recovering them when they arrive, refuelling
them and repairing minor problems, and then sending them on their way.
Second, they serve as a relay station between the planetary surface based message
center and the express boat itself. Messages are forwarded to the tender for transmittal
to the xboat just before it leaves for the next star system. - p11. Supplement 7
Traders and Gunboats​

This could be just a volunteer "HAM" radio operator. I don't see that S7 statement as claiming there is some expensive ground component to the XBoat system.

 

[rancke]

This could be just a volunteer "HAM" radio operator. I don't see that S7 statement as claiming there is some expensive ground component to the XBoat system.

I'm somewhere between you and Guy. I think it does imply a ground component to the X-boat system, but I don't think such a component would necessarily be all that expensive. Relatively speaking -- I can see some top of the line computer and communications equipment involved, but compared to the cost of a tender and several X-boats, it won't amount to a lot.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

Sort of what I meant. If he follows up on his own rules and setting, I'll go along for the sake of internal consistency. If he doesn't pay attention to his own rules and setting, why should I bother?
Hans

perhaps when Marc is refereeing traveller he ignores the rules in favour of drama, as I do sometimes?

What I'm trying to say is I don't let the rules interfere in play if it makes it exciting to have the ship crashing into the planet (or gas giant) because it's M Drive isn't up to snuff go with it.

Regards

David

 

[McPerth]

Yes, the existence of J5 and J6 passenger liners is an assumption on my part (Though I'd prefer to call it a deduction ). The existence of private J5 couriers, OTOH, is canonical (Oberlindes is said to have some).

Canonically, Oberlindes Lines also has a J-5 freighter, Emissary. ;-) The Imperial household also has a J-6 courier network, courtesy of Imperiallines and the Type TJ frontier transports. J-6 naval couriers are also canonical, since they appear in Supplement 7: Fighting Ships. I think it reasonably follows that most sufficiently-large companies and the megacorporations have high-Jump courier services - probably operating at J-5 or J-6. Other than that, I believe MT canonically states that the X-boat network is the fastest long-distance communication system available to the general public on a "common carrier" basis.

IMTU, I interpret this to mean that J-5 and J-6 operations are private - their operators see them as a key competitive advantage. As such, their existence isn't advertised, and their use is restricted to the organization. You literally can't buy passage on a J-6 liner; except under rare referee-controlled circumstances (for example, if your patron is a megacorporation, if you are a high-ranking noble or Navy official, or something similar). Otherwise, J-5 and J-6 passage just isn't available. There are of course, exceptions: specific pairs of worlds that are ideal trading partners 5 or 6 parsecs apart may be served by an isolated high-Jump link. But IMTU, anyone who tries to provide common-carrier J-5 or J-6 service is ruthlessly suppressed (in general, the megacorporations do the dirty work while the Imperium looks the other way).

All this aside, IMHO the JTAS news in TASJ 2 and 3, talking about Tukera building the drop tanks for high performance lineers and the upgrading of the x-boat net to J6, hints that (at least) Tukera has accessto those J6 drop tank supported courriers, and I guess it's not too hard to asume that they have their own too (or at least their own J6 courriers) as it builds them and their drop tanks.

Again my guess, but this could be extended to other Megacorps, at least those involved in starship building and transport (so, in fact, most of them, if not all).

 

[aramis]

All this aside, IMHO the JTAS news in TASJ 2 and 3, talking about Tukera building the drop tanks for high performance lineers and the upgrading of the x-boat net to J6, hints that (at least) Tukera has accessto those J6 drop tank supported courriers, and I guess it's not too hard to asume that they have their own too (or at least their own J6 courriers) as it builds them and their drop tanks.

Again my guess, but this could be extended to other Megacorps, at least those involved in starship building and transport (so, in fact, most of them, if not all).

Note that the writing of JTAS 2 & 3 predates HG-79 being released; it was being worked upon when 2 was released, and is out by issue 4. So it is doubtful that the full impact of the design system were yet noted.

Also worth noting: AHL was in development at the same time; the shift to a "Big Ship Universe" was underway, but not completed, in 1979.

 

[djwildstar]

You don't buy it because you don't like the explanation or you don't buy it because it is fatally flawed? If the latter, what is the flaw?

I think we both agree that the canonical OTU X-boat network has issues. So what's left is mainly a difference of opinion in how we explain the reason for those issues in our respective Traveller universes.

As I understand it, your opinion is that the Imperial X-boat network was supplanted by commercial J-5 and J-6 services some centuries ago. It has been maintained despite the fact that it is basically useless as a point of Imperial pride, and to provide welfare for the generations of Scouts that would otherwise be unemployed. I do have a few concerns about how this works:

- I'm not aware of much OTU canon information on J-5 and J-6 courier, passenger, or freight service; the references that I can find to "fast" canon travel is J-4, usually along X-boat routes. So are the existence of these services OTU canon, or IMTU specific to your game?

- I'm not clear where you stand on commercial J-5 and J-6 service. On one hand, you state that commercial J-5 and J-6 service is sufficiently pervasive that the X-boat network is irrelevant and largely unused, and on the other hand you claim that J-5 and J-6 ships cannot compete against J-2 and J-3 ships over the same route because of the highly unfavorable cost per ton-parsec.

My opinion as is that while the X-boat system is sub-optimal, it is "good enough" for most commerce and routine governmental functions of the Imperium. The political and economic powers that be are have faster communications available for their use, but it isn't available to the general public. Overall, most are satisfied with the status quo, so there is little impetus for change. I feel that this fits in well with published OTU information, and provides good opportunities for adventure: For example, there is opportunity for player characters to outrun the communications network (in fact, many years ago I had a game where the player characters stole a J-4 ship and led a couple of megacorporations and the Imperial authorities on a merry chase across the Spinward Marches).

With major X-boat lines being described as having one X-boat depart every 6 hours, there's no way budgetary concerns can explain the absence of J6 X-boats along major trunk lines.

I think you misunderstood my point. If J-6 X-boats are required to make the same stops as J-4 X-boats, then there is no point to constructing them.

The timing of Strephon just happening to appoint Norris archduke so shortly before he died is so suspicious that even if it was actually true, his political opponents would be able to challenge it.

I agree with this point. In fact, the only way for this to work is if Strephon had actually appointed Norris shortly before the assassination AND that Norris can prove it with reasonable certainty. Presumably the X-boat system includes auditing and authentication information (it seems unreasonable to me that an advanced store-and-forward message system would lack them), allowing an auditor to determine with some degree of confidence the origin and routing of a message.

I generally prefer not to play in the Rebellion or post-Rebellion settings - I use what is more or less the GURPS Traveller continuity, in which there was no assassination and Norris was actually appointed Archduke. This also provides great opportunity for noble rivalry between Delphine of Mora (as the senior noble in the Domain of Deneb and sector Duchess of the Marches) and the "upstart" Norris of Regina (Archduke of Deneb).

I include ordinary subsector dukes in the pool of people with access to NavyNet.

Generally yes. I believe a few subsector capitals lack Navy bases, so these subsector dukes are cut off from the Naval courier network.

Like on the next routine courier run to the neighboring naval base? Or the next routine courier run to Sector HQ?

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

I would think that the Naval courier network connects Naval bases and depots, and to the extent possible, fleets deployed away from bases and depots. Since most subsector and sector capitals are also Naval bases, the Imperial Dukes, Archdukes, and the Emperor can exchange messages and reports over the Navy network. So putting a message on a courier run to a neighboring naval base, sector HQ, or even addressing a message to the Emperor is no problem.

I would suggest that even this is reserved for messages that are actually time-sensitive; routine traffic - the bulk of governmental reports, directives, rule-making, and the like - will go through the X-boat system, simply because it doesn't matter if it arrives in one month or two, as long as it arrives.

What I was saying doesn't happen (except on an emergency basis) is Naval courier service to or from locations that don't have a Navy base. So an urgent request to the Emperor can use the Naval courier network, but a routine administrative report won't. Similarly, a message to the commanders of all Navy bases in a 6-parsec range would legitimately go via Naval courier, but a message addressed to all of the Imperial Consuls on every world in a 6-parsec range wouldn't.

"Admiral, the speedy forwarding of reports to the Emperor is of vital importance to the Imperium. The X-boats are incapable of performing that function, for reasons you know as well as I do. It is therefore your duty to assist in the forwarding of these reports, just as it was the duty of your colleagues to forward the Emperor's orders to me. Furthermore, let me remind you, Fleet Admiral, that I am the direct representative of the Emperor with full oversight of the Imperial Navy inside my duchy. I am therefore, ex officio, your superior officer. I suggest you don't force me to make it an order."

I am an Imperial officer, not one of Your Grace's huscarles. Although I frequently oblige such requests as a loyal servant of the Emperor, I am not obligated to accept orders from Your Grace. Due to increased border tensions and fleet deployments, this base cannot spare fleet courier ships or crews at this time. If Your Grace feels that it is sufficiently urgent that these utterly routine status reports arrive on the Emperor's desk next year instead of three years from now, I respectfully request that Your Grace discuss the matter with my direct superior, Sector Grand Admiral Duke Mumbletyfoo of Blarg. The Grand Admiral is located at the sector capital, a mere dozen parsecs from here. I'm sure that after an audience with Your Grace, the Grand Admiral will issue the requisite orders to promptly dispatch your reports via a dedicated courier to Capital. ;-)

Admittedly, if this naval commander is on the wrong, his career is over. But part of being a high Naval officer is knowing when you can say "no" to nobility and when you can't. This is also the reason that these ranks often carry patents of nobility, so that the base commander can interact with the nobility on more of an equal footing.

I didn't know that reference. I could point out that it doesn't say that the groundside message center is a part of an X-boat establishment. A Scout Base or a Scout office in the local starport would do.

Yes; there is a lot of room for interoperation here, and tailoring individual Traveller universes as needed. The message center could be anything from a rack of equipment in a closet somewhere to a full-blown Scout base with dozens of Type S ships assigned, plus support, training, and repair facilities needed to keep everything flying.

 

[rancke]

As I understand it, your opinion is that the Imperial X-boat network was supplanted by commercial J-5 and J-6 services some centuries ago.

My explanation is that for its original purpose (tying together the Imperial administration) it was replaced by J5 Navy Couriers 400 years ago and by J6 Navy Couriers 100 years ago. As the fastest conveyor of civilian information it is outclassed by civilian J5 and J6 traffic.

It has been maintained despite the fact that it is basically useless as a point of Imperial pride, and to provide welfare for the generations of Scouts that would otherwise be unemployed.

Pretty much, though not so much welfare as graft.

- I'm not aware of much OTU canon information on J-5 and J-6 courier, passenger, or freight service; the references that I can find to "fast" canon travel is J-4, usually along X-boat routes. So are the existence of these services OTU canon, or IMTU specific to your game?

The existence of J5 and J6 shipping is rules canon. That people in the Imperium would build and employ J5 and J6 ships is an unsupported deduction. Well, not completely unsupported; there's mention of a civilian J5 courier and civilian J6 passenger ships (Tukera's drop tank liners).

- I'm not clear where you stand on commercial J-5 and J-6 service. On one hand, you state that commercial J-5 and J-6 service is sufficiently pervasive that the X-boat network is irrelevant and largely unused, and on the other hand you claim that J-5 and J-6 ships cannot compete against J-2 and J-3 ships over the same route because of the highly unfavorable cost per ton-parsec.

They can't compete unless whatever they carry is time-sensitive. This means millionaires and important government officials and corporate big-wigs who are willing to pay six (or ten) times as much for their passage in order to get there twice as fast because they consider their time that valuable. I believe worlds with billions of inhabitants will have enough such people going to and from the nearest neighboring worlds of similar population sizes to support a few J6 passenger liners. And all it takes to beat the X-boats is one going back and forth between each important world. Information is another "cargo" where higher jump numbers can compete with lower.

My opinion as is that while the X-boat system is sub-optimal, it is "good enough" for most commerce and routine governmental functions of the Imperium.

So advanced information is not valuable? And Arbellatra's successors decided that she was wrong? According to canon, the X-boats were designed to alliviate a tremendous strain that the communication times were imposing on the Imperium.

Basically, you're trying to have it two ways. Information is tremendously valuable, enough to warrant a conspiracy to keep the hoi polloi confined to an information speed of 2.6 parsecs yet at the same time it's so not a big deal that everybody on the member worlds are content with that.

The political and economic powers that be are have faster communications available for their use, but it isn't available to the general public. Overall, most are satisfied with the status quo, so there is little impetus for change.

There is no impetus at all, because Navy couriers take care of the administrative mail.

I feel that this fits in well with published OTU information, and provides good opportunities for adventure: For example, there is opportunity for player characters to outrun the communications network (in fact, many years ago I had a game where the player characters stole a J-4 ship and led a couple of megacorporations and the Imperial authorities on a merry chase across the Spinward Marches).

J6 Navy couriers...

I think you misunderstood my point. If J-6 X-boats are required to make the same stops as J-4 X-boats, then there is no point to constructing them.

No, of course not. J6 X-boats would be used wherever they can reduce three links to two or even two links to one.

Generally yes. I believe a few subsector capitals lack Navy bases, so these subsector dukes are cut off from the Naval courier network.

You don't need a full-fledged navy base to have navy couriers stationed in a starport. Especially since provincial (i.e. subsector) capitals tend to be the location of the fleet admiral. Right next to the man who gives him his orders.

I would suggest that even this is reserved for messages that are actually time-sensitive; routine traffic - the bulk of governmental reports, directives, rule-making, and the like - will go through the X-boat system, simply because it doesn't matter if it arrives in one month or two, as long as it arrives.

I would suggest that you are wrong about that. Historically navy ships have routinely been used to carry government dispatches, except when the government had set up a separate postal service (which usually outran the navy ships).

What I was saying doesn't happen (except on an emergency basis) is Naval courier service to or from locations that don't have a Navy base.

I don't see why not.

I am an Imperial officer, not one of Your Grace's huscarles.

He doesn't have to be. He's stationed in the duke's duchy. That makes him answerable to the duke. At least it does if his relationship is similar to the relationship of Royal Navy admirals stationed in British provinces to the governors of those provinces. I believe the same applied to governors and admirals of other European empires.

Now, FFW suggests that subsector dukes have an even stronger relationship than that. Norris is senior to every other one-star admiral in the countermix, not just inside the Regina subsector but in the whole area of operation. And yet, he's mustered out of the IB with the final rank of commander. I have chosen to interpret that as a subsector duke not only functioning as the civilian authority in his own duchy, but as ranking ex officio as a senior fleet admiral. I mentioned that in my writeup of Norris in the Living Traveller adventure "A Festive occasion". I understand that this has since been published in a collection of adventures. If that is so, it would be canon now, wouldn't it? I'm afraid I can't give you a page reference, though; perhaps I'm mistaken.

Although I frequently oblige such requests as a loyal servant of the Emperor, I am not obligated to accept orders from Your Grace.

I think he is. He should have the same relationship to his subsector duke as the sector admiral has to the sector duke.

Admittedly, if this naval commander is on the wrong, his career is over. But part of being a high Naval officer is knowing when you can say "no" to nobility and when you can't.

And one time you can't is when the noble in question is the direct representative of the Emperor for whom you work. Nobles that, as Rebellion Sourcebook puts it, try to "insinuate themselves in the channels of command", sure, by all means flip them the bird, but a subsector duke is firmly placed in the channels of command by the Emperor himself.

All that is moot, though, and I should not have indulged in trying to be clever in my reply to your original admiral's speech. If carrying government dispatches is a 400 year old traditional task of the Imperial Navy, the admiral wouldn't think of not doing it in the first place.

As for a shortage of couriers, I think an Imperial fleet would have a good deal more of them than you appear to think they have. And however short they were, I'm positive a fleet admiral would be well adviced to find one to send his reports to his sector admiral with. So that one would routinely take along all the government bumpf.


Hans

 

[aramis]

At some point between 1105 and 1115, they lost subsector navies (and replaced them with Imperial Reserve Fleets). It looks like someone got tired of subsector dukes and counts being in the direct chain. Most probably Strephon.... Also note... several subsector "dukes" are actually counts.

In any case, the dukes are not actually in command of any non-huscarles forces of the 3I. They have oversight, not command. (MT Reb SB, p 28) Orders come via the admiralty, oversight fcom both...

And, I'll note, the MT chart only Shows Sector Dukes, Archdukes, and the emperor. (with only the emperor in the naval Orders of those.)

If a particular Subsector has a fleet (not a given), that implies a previous polity that came in as a unit.

 

[Drakon]

Speaking of naval couriers, I have a question.

Depot is 4 parsecs away. Lemish has a Naval base, is subsector capital and headquarters for the 60th and 105th fleets. (Or would it be for both fleets?)

In any event, it is my understanding that Depot serves as Sector Headquarters. How often would they dispatch naval couriers to each other? Daily? Every 6 hours?

Daily is 7 couriers a week, every 6 hours is 28 couriers on just this one run. That is a lot of hardware and men tied up for one communications run. Which is not necessarily disqualifying.

So what is the right answer?

 

[aramis]

Speaking of naval couriers, I have a question.

Depot is 4 parsecs away. Lemish has a Naval base, is subsector capital and headquarters for the 60th and 105th fleets. (Or would it be for both fleets?)

In any event, it is my understanding that Depot serves as Sector Headquarters. How often would they dispatch naval couriers to each other? Daily? Every 6 hours?

Daily is 7 couriers a week, every 6 hours is 28 couriers on just this one run. That is a lot of hardware and men tied up for one communications run. Which is not necessarily disqualifying.

So what is the right answer?

probably daily on the route base to base, probably on a 9-day loop (not 7)... for at least 18 on route (20 if you have to take 3 weeks off route for annual maintenance; 19 if the maintenance center is on the route and takes a week.)

9 days allows for the high end of jump duration, plus time to dock and refuel even if the jump fell a bit wide (by a few light minutes).

 

[rancke]

At some point between 1105 and 1115, they lost subsector navies (and replaced them with Imperial Reserve Fleets). It looks like someone got tired of subsector dukes and counts being in the direct chain. Most probably Strephon.... Also note... several subsector "dukes" are actually counts.

MT changed subsector navies to reserve fleets. The writers did a straight search-and-replasce of the text. It was a retcon, pure and simple. With that retcon the Imperium never had subsector navies in 1105.

In any case, the dukes are not actually in command of any non-huscarles forces of the 3I. They have oversight, not command. (MT Reb SB, p 28) Orders come via the admiralty, oversight fcom both...

Naval orders come from the admiralty. Civilian oversight includes orders from the archdukes, sector dukes, and subsector dukes.

"Admirals must answer to several different authorities: the Duke of the subsector in which a fleet is located, the Duke of a sector in which a fleet operates, the Archduke of a domain in which the fleet is assigned." [RbS:27]​

I repeat the observation that in FFW Norris the subsector duke has a one-star admiral counter and can give orders to every other one-star admiral in the game.

And, I'll note, the MT chart only Shows Sector Dukes, Archdukes, and the emperor. (with only the emperor in the naval Orders of those.)

I'll note that the chart is too small to have room for showing the subsector dukes' place in the scheme.

If a particular Subsector has a fleet (not a given), that implies a previous polity that came in as a unit.

Or that someone has persuaded TPTB to re-retcon the duchy fleet back into the OTU.

The dubious nature of subsector navies was the reason why I included the caveat 'if they exist'.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Depot is 4 parsecs away. Lemish has a Naval base, is subsector capital and headquarters for the 60th and 105th fleets. (Or would it be for both fleets?)

In any event, it is my understanding that Depot serves as Sector Headquarters. How often would they dispatch naval couriers to each other? Daily? Every 6 hours?

Daily is 7 couriers a week, every 6 hours is 28 couriers on just this one run. That is a lot of hardware and men tied up for one communications run. Which is not necessarily disqualifying.

So what is the right answer?

I don't think depots are naval headquarters. The subsector capital is the natural place for a fleet admiral to reside.

One daily courier is 8 couriers (one extra for slack) a week each way, or 16 couriers. One light cruiser costs the same as 72 fleet couriers. For a permanent 4 parsec link the navy might easily have squadrons of cheaper J4 couriers, reserving the J6 couriers for longer runs.

probably daily on the route base to base, probably on a 9-day loop (not 7)... for at least 18 on route (20 if you have to take 3 weeks off route for annual maintenance; 19 if the maintenance center is on the route and takes a week.)

9 days allows for the high end of jump duration, plus time to dock and refuel even if the jump fell a bit wide (by a few light minutes).

Oversized 18- or 20-courier squadrons is certainly a possibility. Or the Navy could replace squadrons when their ships are due for annual refits. Or SOP could be to skip a day once in a while. Or they could have supernumerary couriers attached directly to a base or station to take up occasional slack.



Hans

 

[Drakon]

I don't think depots are naval headquarters. The subsector capital is the natural place for a fleet admiral to reside.

I was under the impression that Depot was the Sector Fleet naval headquarters, while Lemish served as headquarters for the 60th and 105th fleets only.

Kaasu is the Sector Capital, but the only naval bases are at Formation, Durima and Drayne in Khukish subsector, at the boundaries. (Toodie-Lee, Buagki, Strand, and Six Lights in the Strand subsector.) The nearest naval base to the capital is at Buagki and that is 3 parsecs away.

Depots have maintenence, training and mothball services for the fleet. They serve as homes to the reserve fleets. (And the Plankwells were transfered to the Corridor reserve fleets around 1102)

It does bring up an interesting aspect, assuming I am right. The political and military headquarters are not in the same place. Perhaps this minimizes the problem of the nobility interfering with the navy excessively.

Oversized 18- or 20-courier squadrons is certainly a possibility. Or the Navy could replace squadrons when their ships are due for annual refits. Or SOP could be to skip a day once in a while. Or they could have supernumerary couriers attached directly to a base or station to take up occasional slack.

I think it could be covered with a 10 ship courier squadron, to cover this one base. But looking at the map, there are only 2 bases (Buagki, Lemish) in 4 parsecs of Depot, so it is not as big an issue as I thought it might be.

 

[rancke]

I was under the impression that Depot was the Sector Fleet naval headquarters, while Lemish served as headquarters for the 60th and 105th fleets only.

Do you have any reason why you have that impression? I don't have any canon support myself, but I've never even considered the possibility that the sector admiral wouldn't be co-located with the sector duke.

Kaasu is the Sector Capital, but the only naval bases are at Formation, Durima and Drayne in Khukish subsector, at the boundaries. (Toodie-Lee, Buagki, Strand, and Six Lights in the Strand subsector.) The nearest naval base to the capital is at Buagki and that is 3 parsecs away.

The failure of the RAW to automatically place a naval base at the subsector capital has always been a mystery to me. But since we seem to be stuck with the occasional baseless capital (pun intended), I can only assume that there is some definition of naval base that the naval establishments at these capitals do not fit. But the notion that the absence of a naval base should mean the absence of any naval establishment at all I reject as blatantly unrealistic. So even if Kaasu doesn't have a naval base, I'm convinced that it has a naval HQ (or possibly even two).

It does bring up an interesting aspect, assuming I am right. The political and military headquarters are not in the same place. Perhaps this minimizes the problem of the nobility interfering with the navy excessively.

If by 'interesting' you mean 'mind-boggling' then I agree.

I think it could be covered with a 10 ship courier squadron, to cover this one base. But looking at the map, there are only 2 bases (Buagki, Lemish) in 4 parsecs of Depot, so it is not as big an issue as I thought it might be.

Again, a courier doesn't need a base to be stationed at. It can be stationed anywhere (though in some places logistical support will cost more than in other places).


Hans

 

[aramis]

I don't think depots are naval headquarters. The subsector capital is the natural place for a fleet admiral to reside.

Only if the Subsector duke has ANY AUTHORITY at all. Oversight and authority are NOT the same - not even close. And I can't find any evidence that subsector dukes even have oversight. It's not a "straight search and replace" - the text in MT is actually different from what's in CT-HG. (Only the CGen is S&R.)

Oversight means you have to tell them what and why, not do what they ask.
Authority means having to do what they ask - but doesn't always include having to tell them how you're going to do so.

Oversight does have a tendency to back-channel power by threats of poor reports and/or non-compliance with the reporting directives.

The logical place for an admiral is wherever the center of his comm net is.
IF the subsector "duke" has authority over the admiral, then yes, there's a good reason for both the admiral and the fleet courier net to routinely include it. Otherwise, no, there's no reason at all for a non-naval base subector capital to have the numbered nor reserve fleet's Admirals present, nor a routine dispatch run.

One daily courier is 8 couriers (one extra for slack) a week each way, or 16 couriers. One light cruiser costs the same as 72 fleet couriers. For a permanent 4 parsec link the navy might easily have squadrons of cheaper J4 couriers, reserving the J6 couriers for longer runs.

One in 6 jumps runs into the 8th day. You need to allow for targeting errors (which are, per MT, TNE, and T4, not that uncommon) on top of the longer lobe. 8 ships is going to be cutting it tight several times a month.
9 allows for reasonably robust schedules that are only disrupted by the roughly 1 in 400 jumps that have more severe issues. (Outside CT and T5, it's nigh impossible to misjump more than a thousand AU unless you actually ignore maintenance and reasonably safe operations, but it's not uncommon to have minor mishaps. T5, it's remarkably easy to wind up stopped short.)

 

[djwildstar]

So advanced information is not valuable? And Arbellatra's successors decided that she was wrong? According to canon, the X-boats were designed to alliviate a tremendous strain that the communication times were imposing on the Imperium.

Overall, the Imperium overall hasn't expanded much since Arbellatra's time - in fact, it's probably gotten smaller, losing a few systems in the Marches and about three-quarters of worlds within 50 parsecs of Sol.

I'd say that advanced information is valuable, but long-haul information is not as valuable as you might think, because of the structure of the Imperium. The feudal structure of the Imperium means that actual implementation of the Emperor's decrees is left to local leaders, typically at the subsector level. This in turn means that it is usually more important to know what the subsector officials are actually doing than to hear the Emperor's decree first.

Basically, you're trying to have it two ways. Information is tremendously valuable, enough to warrant a conspiracy to keep the hoi polloi confined to an information speed of 2.6 parsecs yet at the same time it's so not a big deal that everybody on the member worlds are content with that.

Not quite. What I'm saying is that advance information from far away isn't valuable enough, in the ordinary course of things, to warrant upgrading the existing X-boat system or to support widespread commercial services at J-5 or J-6.

I had a game where the player characters stole a J-4 ship and led a couple of megacorporations and the Imperial authorities on a merry chase across the Spinward Marches.

J6 Navy couriers...

You'd have to ask the referee about that. I was the PC that stole the ship, and let's just say that I was very careful to avoid any "Imperial entanglements" ... ;-)

I would suggest that you are wrong about that. Historically navy ships have routinely been used to carry government dispatches, except when the government had set up a separate postal service (which usually outran the navy ships).

But this is a case where the government has set up a separate postal service - the IISS Communications Branch is the postal service of the Third Imperium. That it is slower than Naval couriers isn't the Navy's problem - if the Emperor feels a need to speed up the mail, he certainly has the budget and authority to do so. ;-)

So I conclude that routine governmental traffic is the responsibility of the IISS by virtue of the Imperial decree that set it up. To my knowledge, that hasn't been rescinded or countermanded. Of course, the Navy will handle emergency dispatches when necessary for the good of the Imperium.

All that is moot, though, and I should not have indulged in trying to be clever in my reply to your original admiral's speech.

I thought it was a fun exchange, so I'm glad you did.

If carrying government dispatches is a 400 year old traditional task of the Imperial Navy, the admiral wouldn't think of not doing it in the first place.

Correct. And if carrying government dispatches is a 400-year-old traditional task of the IISS, then the Duke wouldn't think of going to the Admiral except in a real emergency. So a lot of this comes down to your preference for your game versus mine versus what's been published about the OTU. I submit that published OTU canon says that the X-boat network is used for the routine work of government and commercial communications.

As for a shortage of couriers, I think an Imperial fleet would have a good deal more of them than you appear to think they have.

I doubt that there are many military commanders who feel that they have far too many resources to accomplish the tasks they've been charged with. So regardless of how many couriers the Admiral has, he is probably loathe to lose any, unless he absolutely has to.

 

[djwildstar]

I don't think depots are naval headquarters. The subsector capital is the natural place for a fleet admiral to reside.

Only if the Subsector duke has ANY AUTHORITY at all. Oversight and authority are NOT the same - not even close. And I can't find any evidence that subsector dukes even have oversight.

I tend to agree here, for several reasons.

One is that MT material; my read is that while Imperial Navy admirals have to keep the sector and subsector nobility informed and (reasonably) happy with their performance, these nobles are NOT in the chain of command, and cannot issue orders. Another is practical: placing Naval forces under subsector control will lead to too much focus on local interests, and a lack of strategic planning for the sector and the Imperium as a whole.

The logical place for an admiral is wherever the center of his comm net is.

I think that sector headquarters is typically located at the sector's Depot. If the sector capital is some distance from Depot, I'm sure the sector admiral will dedicate courier resources to keeping the Sector Duke informed, and will assign an officer to be a naval attache to His Grace.

I would expect subsector headquarters to be located in a Naval base somewhere in the Subsector. Often the subsector capital contains a Navy base, and in this case I'd expect that base to be the subsector HQ. If the subsector capital doesn't have a Navy base, then I'd expect the subsector Navy HQ to be at a base somewhere in the subsector. The T5 Importance attribute means that sector and subsector capitals will almost always have a Navy base present.

There are probably exceptions to this general rule. For example, some subsectors may have so few Navy bases that they are administered from an adjacent subsector Navy HQ, or perhaps Naval HQ is not co-located with the subsector capital because one or the other was recently moved.